Can India liberate Tibet if it wanted to?, page 3

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reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 07:46 AM by Daedalus3

yeah i quite didn't get that too... But good to see posititivity on the indian side..

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 02:58 PM by Russian

Indian Military

Army

Soldiers: 1,100,000
Main Battle Tank: 3,772
Armored Vehicles: 1,640
Howitzers: 4,175
Artillery self propelled: 180
Rocket Launchers: 100

Air Force

Soldiers: 145,000
Combat Aircrafts: 738
Transport Aircrafts: 336

Navy

Soldiers: 53,000
Aircraft Carriers: 1 (Admiral Gorshkov will come in at 2009)
Destroyers: 8
Frigates: 11
Corvettes: 7
Missile/Patrol Boats: 41
Submarines: 18
Mine Warfare Vessels: 12

Chinas Military

Army

Soldiers: 1,600,000
Main Battle Tanks: 8,400
Amored Vehicles: 7,500
Artillery self propelled: 1,200
Rocket Launcher: 2,500
Howitzers: 14,500
Helicopters: 243

Air Force

Soldiers: 420,000
Combat Aircrafts: 2,900
Bombers: 320
Transport Aircrafts: 515
Helicopters: 204
Anti Aircrafts Artillery: 16.000

Navy

Soldiers: 275,000
Marines: 5,000
Destroyers: 22
Frigates: 42
Patrol Boats: 92
Landing Crafts: 285
Amphibious Ships: 59
Submarines: 29
Mine Warfare Vessles: 39
Auxiliary Vessels: 159
Combat Aircrafts: 460
Helicopters: 54

After looking at the numbers you will see that China has an edge. But after you add which has the better tech China goes up in airforce and India goes up in Navy. Also when you add the terrain advantage India goes up somemore. Over all China would have an upper hand in the battle. That that would be a very bloody adn costly battle. After that battle India and China would be in ruins as they would waste all they got on that one battle. My advice is not to start this battle at all!

Out,
Russian

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 06:58 PM by tututkamen

If your statistics are true and I assume they are. India better not screw with CHINA

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 07:14 PM by Hawkssss

People, please EDUCATE YOURSELVES BEFORE SPEAKING!!! I AM NOT BRAGGING OR GLOATING; I AM SIMPLY FRUSTRATED BY THE UTTER LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE RELEVANT AREA AND I DO KNOW THAT CHINA IS STILL BEHIND US, EUROPE AND RUSSIA IN MANY FIELDS.

Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
www.sinodefence.com...

1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own indigenous AWACS.
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking about??????? Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/02/757.html

3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers that are about to retire. They haven't added any DDGs in the past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054 Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia????????

Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.

So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.

I am not even gonna mention the steath fast attack boats, which has been discussed in a different thread.

What has india made?????????

www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air force is called "flying coffin". Please don't even mention LCA, which has failed a test in Russia just recently and they crashed 3 Mirage 2000 last month along. (yes, I can provide all the source you need on these)

www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some british trainer recently. See again, they can't make crap.
www.wforum.com...

5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?????? lolololol, they can't even control Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?

The PLA has fought against the US-led UN forces successfully in Korea driving them back from the china-korea border back to the 38th parallel where the war stopped till today. (the casualty of China+n. Korea is roughly equal to the casualty of UN forces+S. Korea). We have skirmished with USSR, Vietnam and entirely and thoroughly obliterated the Indians in 1962. Not to mention, we had a huge hand in Vietnam as well.

Who besides the pakistanis and Chinese have the indians fought?

6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.

www.nsrf.com...

7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.

8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.

China is the world's No. 1 steel maker (over 200 million tons in 2003) while India is the 8th with (with only 36 million tons of production in 2003-2004). China is the worlds No. 3 ship maker and I have no idea where india ranks!!!

China's soverign rating or country rating by Standard & Poor's is BBB+, which is investment grade while India's soverign rating is BB+ which is non-investment grade or junk status.

9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge margin.
www.cdi.org...
www.globalissues.org...

10) Bottom line: China is making proportionally more and more indigenously while India is still buying most of its stuff from overseas while we outspend them 3 to 1. This only means India is being left behind by China further and further just like our economies. Our eoconomy grows faster than india's and in a decade, Chinese economy will be about 3X that of India while their population will surpass that of China in the next decade, without any revaluation of our currency which is most likely to happen in the next decade. Do you know what that means?????

PLEASE DON'T TALK IF YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT US!!!!!!!

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reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 07:22 PM by COWlan

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reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 07:28 PM by Hawkssss

@indians

Please provide backup and sources for what you post. Don't speculate wildly without knowing any background information. This will only destroy your own credibility and gives me another chance to "beat" you. lol

Ciao

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:19 PM by Lucretius

steady on Hawkssss... it's one thing to debate in a civilised manner... another to gloat.

Don't be so cocky, you never know the indians might supprise us all.

I agree that technologically and numerically the chinese have the upper hand. A much larger millitary budget combined with a growing ecomnomy and a huge manufacturing base makes them a formidable opponent.

But the indian economy is predicted to grow 8% this year, and though it will innevitably trail china for many years to come... they will spend more and learn more... closing the gap.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:30 PM by Hawkssss

wrong. The fact that we are growing faster and are making more on our own while they continue to buy most of their stuff only means that the gap is widening, not narrowing.

I am not gloating, I am simply trying to state some facts while feeling compeletely frustrated by the lack of relavent knowledge and the slightest inclination to even research.

In fact, I will keep update my previous posts as I do more research.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:34 PM by Lucretius

trust me I know the background... if you read my previous posts I often stick up for china's progress in the face of general ignorance.

But you seem to be writing india off... at least that's what you seem to imply in your posts.

Remember they have the backing of both the US and the UK... who i'm sure would be willing to sell or give india needed technologies should the situation require it.

In agree though... India will not catch china soon, it won't come close for another couple of decades

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:41 PM by Hawkssss

thank you for your candide reply and my posts are not targeted at people who are in the know like yourself and Russian.

I am not writing india off at all. They are a nuclear power with huge potentials and the fact that I know so much about them is a testiment of my ackowledging their global presence.

But, honestly I don't think India has benefitted more from so-called backing from the west. Firstly of all, US is far from a friend of India; in fact, most americans are far more ignorant of india than they are of China simply because they have no paid much attention to it. Secondly, do you think US is so stupid as to help another potential future rival? I don't think so. Whatever little help US is giving to India is very limited in scope. That's why indians often thought that US is more in favor of China than india which is absurd not only because US sees China as a bigger threat to his hegemony but also because the naivete of the indians in thinking so.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:46 PM by Lucretius

I think the reason the US is giving India more backing, is because they have proclaimed themselves allies on the "war on terrorism"... though India is non too keen on the US backing pakistan as well.

Another reason may be simply because the US feels that china is a greater threat at the moment, and a strong ally in the region will always be good for political influence.

You are right though... the US has better friends than India, as relations between the countries have never really progressed until recently. There has been no need... but now that china is rising, and north korea is building it's war of rhetoric I think they have decided they need all the help they can get.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:53 PM by Hawkssss

agree and that's why you see all the joint military exercise between US and india lately. One more point to heed is that India was traditionally a strong soviet and russia ally and, as a result, the US has been very suspicious of India and in fact sanctioned india when india tested its first nuke a few years back. This week, news has it that US is sancitoning 3 indian nuclear scientists for "selling" nuclear information.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:58 PM by Lucretius

no doubt the next 10 years should prove very interesting indeed

I've often wondered what the possibility's of India and China sorting out their differences are...

It would free up millitary resources on both sides of the border if agreements can be reached on territory, possibly allowing both sides to cut millitary manpower and focus on modernisation.

Alternatively China's resources could be shifted towards the coast to help bolster it's detterent... or maybe to scare Taiwan a little more.. who knows?

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:03 PM by Hawkssss

both sides have been trying to settle our border disputes. (a side note, China and Russia have just recently settled our border disputes with people from both sides calling foul and thinking they were fleeced from the deal). I am sure it will come with india also as we recognize its growing power and importance and the increasing threat from US all around us. This is inevitable. In fact, China and France and russia have been so close that it leaves one thinking whether it would be a gangbang on the Americans by EU(minus UK)+China+Russia+India. lol France made the Eifel Tower China Red and China made Tiananmen Squre the french Blue, white and red recently.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:48 PM by aryaputhra

Hawksss. both you and I know statistics put out by China of its economic growth have time and again proven untrustworthy. Reports have surfaced many times in the past 5 years that these statistics by an official organ of the ruling Communist Party are faulty and overstate the actual results. The Americans and the Brtish who control the media and independent analysis have turned blind eye to these faults. They mainly use the data to justify greater investment in China.So please, spare me your urls and links to chinese sources.

Here's a link Lies, damn lies and Chinese statistics

Remember Chou En Lai who gloated to the world that China had reached self sufficiency in food and grain in 1955, only to be faced with extreme famine in 1958 to 1975!

Re, the infrastructure boom, China IS a bubble ready to burst. Everyone has speculated that. These buildings are mostly empty offices waiting for occupancy. All is based on the fallacy that soon there will be westerners cramming the place. What happens when the actual demand is realized and there is a huge shortfall for demand?

China is booming; bubble, anyone?

A new study issued by the RAND Corporation, and funded by the Defense Department, takes a look at potential ``fault lines in China's economic terrain,'' factors that could slow or even reverse China's runaway growth. Some of the major fault lines include:

� Unemployment -- official and hidden unemployment amounts to almost a quarter of the labor force, or about 170 million people, the RAND report says. As China is forced to modernize to compete globally, it could increase that rate, worsen rural poverty and trigger social unrest.

� Corruption -- worsening corruption, unchecked by the weak legal system, could weaken growth.

� Epidemics -- as we saw with SARS, and maybe now with bird flu, epidemic disease can spread rapidly in China. HIV/AIDS infection rates are also climbing, at great economic and social cost.

� Pollution -- China has massive air and water pollution problems and faces a serious shortage of water, particularly in the north, home to China's rust belt.

� Energy -- China's growth depends on imports of oil, gas and coal, making it vulnerable to sharp increases in world energy prices.

But the most immediate danger for RAND and other experts is the fragility of China's state-dominated financial system.

� Finance -- The four main state-owned Chinese banks, which together account for almost three-quarters of all lending and deposits in China, are sitting on a massive mountain of bad debt. Standard & Poor's estimate is that some $850 billion in non-performing loans are on the books -- well beyond the $175 billion it took the U.S. to bail out the savings and loans in the 1980s and more than twice official Japanese estimates of their huge bad loan problem.

China's banks are not banks as we know them. They exist to support government policies. When a local Chinese government wants an industrial park to attract foreign investors, it forces the banks to lend money to do it. Fearful of increasing unemployment, the government tells banks to lend money to state-owned factories that should be allowed to go bankrupt.

Wait, perhaps that will never happen, there is always the commie regime to rely on when it comes to gloating. China is growing! China is 100 trillion in FDI, China is this, and that! Viva China, Viva!

Let's all jump around and say, 'Gong Xi!' 'Gong Xi'! and wait for our 'Ang Pau'

P.S.

Oh, and by the way, the part of Chinese 'occupied' Kashmir? China got it through Pakistan, as a 'gift'. It is not even kashmiri it is just a piece of cold deserted uninhabited land of Aksai Chin. Nobody lives there. Barring the bulk of Azad Kashmir (POK); Kashmir is still well and truely with India.

Oh and the sole reason why India is nuclear today, is because of China. And that is not because George Fernandes said China is enemy number one. Two years after Indo-Chinese war, China conducted its nuclear test. India asked security guarantees from the United States, Soviet Union and Britain to cope with a hostile nuclear China on her borders. India was rebuffed. This led India to defend for itself.

www.fes.de...

This policy mix came under tremendous pressure in October 1964, when China conducted its first nuclear test... China's test, forced India to debate for the first time in open its nuclear weapon option. There were strong demands within India for acquiring nuclear weapons; ...

India tried three approaches to resolve its nuclear dilemma. One, it sought security guarantees from the United States, Soviet Union and Britain to cope with a hostile nuclear China on her borders. India was rebuffed by all three. Two, it attempted to develop a multilateral solution by calling for a non-proliferation treaty... The NPT that came out of the multilateral negotiations turned out to be entirely different. Three, Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri decided in 1965 to go ahead with a sub-terranean nuclear explosion project (SNEP). But both Shastri and Bhabha died in January 1966. ..., SNEP was postponed.

So don't say we Indians don't do our homework. We know what we talk about. India might not be a match to your economy right now. That's because we only opened our economy in 1990 whilst China's economy opened in 1978. So we might be playing catchup but not for very long if IT, Biotechnology are any examples to go by.

Moral of the story, don't gloat. It might come back right at ya.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:48 PM by The Vagabond

You know Hawk, you've shown me something I never realized before.

China is turning into a fat, cocky, tech-obsessed superpower. You know what happens when you get like that? VIETNAM. AFGHANISTAN (for Russia).

Let me break the tactical situation down for you into the simplest possible terms because all the technology in the world doesn't matter in a difficult tactical situation.

If India moves into Tibet the Chinese have to move a large amount of hardware through constricted terrain and attack an Indian force which has had time to prepare itself to defend a superior position. China will be obliged to suffer heavy casualties while closing with the Indians and fight a protracted infantry and artillery duel. To succeed, India must succeed in deep operations to destroy Chinese Artillery, or be MUCH more efficient than the Chinese in their fire control. For China to succeed they must be able to defeat Indian air defenses and target Indian artillery from the air.

This war would likely be fought to a stalemate. If China attempted to "punish" india as hawk has foolishly suggested, India would obviously resort to it's last line of defense, and use tactical nuclear weapons to unhinge and destroy the Chinese army. A response in kind would only be practical if it could be achieved without significant damage to population centers, because China must realize that significant damage to population centers will take this war to a strategic level and perhaps result in the decimation of China's economy.

I will add that I am deeply insulted by the arrogance of Hawks post. If you want to compare brainpans we can do that pal, because you'll be hard pressed to find someone around here who spends more time reading on military subjects.
I'm very impressed with the research you put in to these two militaries, but there is a word for people who over-emphasize numbers and equipment. "GEAR QUEER".
I follow the KISS principle- Keep it simple. If you get fancy and emphasize relative strengths and weaknesses of equipment and manpower over the crucial factors of terrain and determination you will get a skewed answer. For example, by your calculous Afghanistan should have been a cakewalk for the Russians.

Forgive me that my response is somewhat incomplete, I have other matters to attend to beyond dealing with arrogant Chinese who feel the world shifts just because their nation has FINALLY gotten around to building a couple of AWACS. I'll tell you what- call me back when your military can decimate one of the worlds largest tank armies in 100 hours. And yeah, if you think you hear somebody saying "been there, done that" they were in the US Army in 1991-1992.

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:52 PM by Hawkssss

@indian

Lol, you think China has all the forged numbers.lolol Is that how you indians comfort yourselves. Great, because if that's your mentality, you will never catch up with us. So you think all the wall street bankers and the CEOs of US company are simply stupid???? Do you think you are smarter than they are? lolloll I can give you many, many articles that say otherwise.

Ok, if you want to indulge in your wet dreams, please help yourself. lol

So why don't you dispute the numbers with some evidence. You know it is very easy to talk empty. Could you please at least spend some time research. Please don't be so frigging lazy because that's not gonna give you any credibility.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:58 PM by Hawkssss

@Vagaband,

What do you think the indians are, supermen? Don't they need to move their stuff to the Himalayas also? Do you know that the Himalayas is the world's tallest mountain range. How do you think they will fight us except through Kashmir and a few other places where we have troops heavily stationed???? FYI, China has completed building a railroad connecting Chengdu and Lahsa. Plus, we have our forward position in the Chinese Kashmir.

Well, if history is telling at all, all the indians did in 1962 is running when they had all the support form US and CCCP while China just came out of a 10-year long famine and just broke up with CCCP and we still kicked their asssss bad.

Sorry your scenario doesn't work simply because we are too strong for them and if they didn't take Tibet back then, they would never be able to do that at all. Even Dalai Lama recently said that he doesn't want an independant Tibet anymore.

What do you think China's chances are at freeing Kashmire? Or do you think China has a better chance of freeing Kahsmir than india does at Tibet?

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 10:03 PM by Hawkssss

@Vagaband,

Why don't you do some research and present some facts and that way I might be able to respect you, but all your empty talk doesn't really show how many brain cells you have. lol

Where did I say "China will punish India"????

I am simply stating some facts that most of you have no idea about while can't stop talking, like "china doesn't have awacs", "China only uses T-55", "india's navy is better than China's", " all china's numbers are exaggerated", etc.

Who is doing the right thing: me researching, providing solid links and pictures or you guys talking empty out of your behind????

And you accuse me of being arrogant??? I don't think so.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Hawkssss]

reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 10:08 PM by aryaputhra

@chinese

your propagandist 'persistence pays off' postings will not work here. Nobody will buy it just because you keep on coming with this 'mightier than thou' posts. i've just recognized who you really are - a flamebaiter.

some of us have work to do in the real world.

keep dreaming and wait for the fat commie generals to reward you.

Hasta la vista, baby.