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posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Runciter33
 


That's fine ... as it applies to those cases.
If you want to generalize, and thereby label every single finding in science you disagree with as being government sponsored and tainted, then, please, by all means don't throw a fit when someone brings up a few cases of people that are very obviously suffering from a severe mental pathology when they also over generalize (which I have not yet done) in saying ALL alien abduction people are such.

Now, if you'd like to find links that are RELEVANT to the specific papers and links I've cited, then, we might have something to talk about.

If you want to play Blanket Party Generalization in using a few non related cases to generalize all of science, then, you might expect others to play by the same rules.




Oh i'm fully aware of the harm of hypnosis, i studied this and a variety of different things as i have said previously regarding Psychology. There are several well documented cases of psychiatrists or therapists of some sort or another using shady practices and basically programming people on a subconscious level. I am under no obligation to view your links, as you are not obligated to view mine. It is easy enough to link things, but that doesn't make them true. I already know the power of suggestion and hypnosis can do, no need to convince me of that.

I was not quoting that as a blanket answer to everything, so you are putting words in my mouth there. By the same token, i'm quite certain the links you provided and your alleged evidence which may well be well founded, does not account for all cases either. So the question remains, if even *ONE* case is unexplained, then you have an unknown. To speculate beyond the data, as i have also said previously, is, in my opinion foolhardy.

Another point i'd like to make is that unless you have had such an experience yourself, then you cannot claim to be some sort of expert on it. Were you there when these alleged abduction experiences occured? If not, your commentary on any one of them cannot be complete. You may, as you have done, talk in general terms from studies you have read (not done yourself either, i am assuming) Therefore everything you say is based upon what you have read. True of untrue? If true, what makes you think what you have read from whatever sources you have cited, are any more credible than mine or any others? Can *YOU* prove that? Other than to say "but accepted science says...." because as i have cited, established science has a bias and conflict of interest in the medical community... hypnosis and psychiatry is very much related to the abduction phenomenon, so i would say that it is a relevant and valid connection to make.




posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Runciter33
... Were you there when these alleged abduction experiences occured? If not, your commentary on any one of them cannot be complete. You may, as you have done, talk in general terms from studies you have read (not done yourself either, i am assuming) Therefore everything you say is based upon what you have read. True of untrue? If true, what makes you think what you have read from whatever sources you have cited, are any more credible than mine or any others? Can *YOU* prove that? Other than to say "but accepted science says...." because as i have cited, established science has a bias and conflict of interest in the medical community... hypnosis and psychiatry is very much related to the abduction phenomenon, so i would say that it is a relevant and valid connection to make.


You neglect to read my posts. In doing so, you neglect to find that I had a flat mate that was a claimed abductee who further claimed abduction experiences during times I was at the flat.
Further, the flat was wired with cameras, and she went nowhere. Nor were there any recording gaps, or indication of artificial interference that would indicate any electromagnetic phenomenon as is typically associated with UFOs and Aliens. There were no power outages.

You further neglect to recognize where I indicate involvement with research regarding these studies.

You make assumptions regarding my academic and/or professional background, or lack of it.

I've done the due diligence of reading the material you've provided.
I'd suggest you do the same.
Otherwise, your arguments are invalid assumptions.


I thus maintain (read carefully now); The majority of Alien Contact/Abduction phenomenon can be accounted for by the Psycho-Social model as held out in numerous studies.






edit on 5-9-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by Druscilla
 


Yes, thank you. James Kent has an opposing view. apparently an experiment giving the "entities" math problems to pass on to other "volunteers" failed.
www.dosenation.com...
Interesting drawing.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by swan001

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian

Sorry. This is one of those times when my mind closes completly. I just don't buy it.


Duh. Your mind is always closed. Go figure why it doesn't work.

That was mean....and it hurt my feelings



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by Runciter33
... Were you there when these alleged abduction experiences occured? If not, your commentary on any one of them cannot be complete. You may, as you have done, talk in general terms from studies you have read (not done yourself either, i am assuming) Therefore everything you say is based upon what you have read. True of untrue? If true, what makes you think what you have read from whatever sources you have cited, are any more credible than mine or any others? Can *YOU* prove that? Other than to say "but accepted science says...." because as i have cited, established science has a bias and conflict of interest in the medical community... hypnosis and psychiatry is very much related to the abduction phenomenon, so i would say that it is a relevant and valid connection to make.


You neglect to read my posts. In doing so, you neglect to find that I had a flat mate that was a claimed abductee who further claimed abduction experiences during times I was at the flat.
Further, the flat was wired with cameras, and she went nowhere. Nor were there any recording gaps, or indication of artificial interference that would indicate any electromagnetic phenomenon as is typically associated with UFOs and Aliens. There were no power outages.

You further neglect to recognize where I indicate involvement with research regarding these studies.

You make assumptions regarding my academic and/or professional background, or lack of it.

I've done the due diligence of reading the material you've provided.
I'd suggest you do the same.
Otherwise, your arguments are invalid assumptions.


I thus maintain (read carefully now); The majority of Alien Contact/Abduction phenomenon can be accounted for by the Psycho-Social model as held out in numerous studies.






edit on 5-9-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)


Frankly, i do not care to read each and every post of yours.

Let me be clear, your argument is based on an alleged flatmate of yours, and studies you have linked and read.

Well my link provides evidence from research saying to the effect that studies *like* the studies you reference have found to be biased, and thus faulty and incorrect on some level. Does this mean specifically the studies and research you cite? Not necessarily, but then again, those are exactly the types of studies they refer to.

So let me play this little game of generalize everything with you, and say that prove to *me* that what *my* links claim (which invalidate to a great extent your links) are wrong.

Show *me* the research saying the studies i refer to are invalid or faulty. If you cannot do this, then doubt must remain upon the accuracy of such studies.

God forbid, the almighty peer reviewed is not as squeaky clean and all knowing as they claim to be.

As a side note, if you truly believe big business and government have no influence on the scientific community, i'm not sure how far this particular conversation can go. I would be happy to cite further references for examples though if you wish.
edit on 5-9-2012 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by starheart

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian

Originally posted by starheart
reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 


I was just trying to help, sorry if i crossed a line.
No line crossed. I was just Trying to make a point that I don't believe there are any "attacks" being made on me. ...and whimsically


Ok, thanks.
... but then why did you made that post? (about not being able to move).

If it didn't had aliens involved, then why?

Why? because that's what happens to me. I have bouts of sleep paralysys and with that very vivid hallucinations. en.wikipedia.org...
It usually happens when my sleep pattern is not regular. When I worked overnights many years ago, I would get this all the time. I never had an abduction experience but some of the descriptions are exactly like the feelings I have, so I conclude they are the same.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by Runciter33
 


You're in error as the burden of proof does not lay on me.
I will, however, make it easy for you and repeat, yet again, my premise in full. If you're too lazy to put even the barest minimum of due diligence into a counterpoint, then the relevance and legitimacy of any retort you offer is null:

The majority of Alien Contact reports and claims can be described and attributed to subject specific personally subjective Psychological Phenomenon experiences.

Such stance is supported by:
The Psychology of Alien Contact and Abduction Claims

The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Alien Abduction Memories

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens

Transcultural Psychiatry - Sleep Paralysis, Sexual Abuse, and Space Alien Abduction

as well as many other well documented citations, and papers listed in the public domain on the subject.

Further, as supported by above documentation and other studies conducted regarding the phenomenon, the majority of Alien Abduction accounts can be accounted for by Schizotypy and/or Schizotypal Personality Disorder (SPD) as well as several other classifications.

Please note, this is not a personal criticism of anyone, but a classification as held in the Psycho-Social diagram.

Of further note; such classifications are not a statement of mental health, or illness, though such factors as relevant to this phenomenon of Alien Contact do make presentation.

In support of this statement, for the (sixth) time, quoting myself:


Schizotypy isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing.
There is such a state as "Healthy" Schizotypy:

Although aiming to reflect some of the features present in diagnosable mental illness, schizotypy does not necessarily imply that someone who is more schizotypal than someone else is more ill. For example, certain aspects of schizotypy may be beneficial. Both the Unusual experiences and Cognitive disorganisation aspects have been linked to Creativity and academic achievement. Jackson proposed the concept of ‘benign schizotypy’ in relation to certain classes of religious experience, which he suggested might be regarded as a form of problem-solving and therefore of adaptive value. The link between positive schizotypy and certain facets of creativity is consistent with the notion of a "healthy schizotypy", which may account for the persistence of schizophrenia-related genes in the population despite their many dysfunctional aspects.


I encourage those unfamiliar with, or biased against Psychological classifications to educate yourselves.
"Crazy" is not a clinical designation, but a societal perception.

Schizotypy in some ways, considering the creative aspects associated with healthy subjects, could be like having Synesthesia which is actually quite a wonderful and fascinating condition.


Thus, in summary:
The majority of Alien Contact accounts can be described as Psychological Phenomenon; subjective personal experiences had by subjects as the result of Schizotypal Personality Disorder, Sleep Paralysis, or similar where such is held out and supported in the documentation provided above.

Until similar documented counterpoint of topical relevance is offered for debate, the premise that the majority of Alien Contact accounts can be attributed to Psychological Phenomenon will stand as my stance on the subject, and until such debate with proper citation is presented such that challenges this position sufficiently to topple this position, said position will stand.

Individuals are welcome to their own views for any reason or no reason at all.
The views expressed in this post are a majority held view in the scientific community as upheld by rigorous peer reviewed and replicated research.

This position is not a criticism of any individual person. This is not an accusation or diagnosis of mental health. This is simply the view of the scientific community in regard to the topic of Alien Contact as described in the Psychological diagram.

edit on 5-9-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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as it happens, i have had a sleep paralysis incident involving what appeared to be the typical "gray" in my minds eye. I did not assume it was some sort of alien related thing, but more a subconsciously evoked image for whatever reason, though i wonder at why that image and not another. Anyways, it was a brief experience, and it did not make too much of an impression on me all things considered. I certainly didn't assume it was an alien talking to me, though i can't say that it wasn't either.

I'd like to point out also that i am not saying whatever your links state are "wrong" i have been privy to enough material regarding the dangers of hypnosis not to mention personal experience to say with enough confidence that yes, these things do happen, maybe more than people realize.

However, again, that does not nearly account for so many variables that remain unexplained. Why for example, if people are making this up, or some hypnotist or professional are planted such things, why the uniformity from so many different, diverse places no to mention times? How do you account for the consistency in such reports across the board? Is it some huge conspiracy to plant alien abduction memories in people? If this is really the case, then that is to my mind definitely an area that needs to be further explored.

And once again, even, for the sake of argument you are right, (which i do not submit to) and these studies account for *most* they still do not account for *all* therefore unknowns still remain. Yes? Or do you claim to have solved the mystery once and for all by your very self?
edit on 5-9-2012 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by Druscilla
 


Fancy set of links you have there, however, you have not proven to me they are valid. Especially considering *my* link says that such studies are often biased and involve a conflict of interest.

Keep posting your links though, maybe if you do it enough it will magically make them true.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by swan001
You purposefully misunderstood my analogy, and I know you did it purposefully as it disgress from the current subject.

Sorry.


I never saw the Wizard of Oz.

So I guess you never synched this up to the Dark Side of the Moon then? by Pink Floyd...the rock band?


I am french and I rarely watch movies.

oh.



You know what I think? I think a part of these experiences are dreams, misinterpreted past evens, and I know there even are sexual fantasms which actually includes alien abductions.

oh yes, the question I asked. So in your opinion, these experiences are not "real" like the "real" ones but are different somehow even though the people experiencing them believe them to be real?



I know everything,

I know very little and I am actually a little retarded.


But I also know Earth is not the only Goldilock planet, that heavy documentation exists on the aliens that crashed and contacted the Government itself in 1951, that greys have been filmed by the KGB and the tapes buried for years. I know everything about that too.

OK


Are you now suggesting the Government and its intelligence agencies all experienced a massive illusion, documented it, and that novel military technologies (included as an exchange with the Greys according to the Edwards Agreement) all popped out from these illusions? That the videocamera from KGB has a funny way of getting crazy and starting filming greys that are not there?


ahhh, no, I guess not...

I didn't know that about the KGB

I concede.
edit on 5-9-2012 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-9-2012 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by Runciter33
 


You ask questions regarding consistency and societal prevalence in similarity, yet, you won't read where some of the answers are described, and reliably replicated in the lab.

You're entitled to believe what you will, however, so, good luck with looking for answers and refusing to even consider them when offered.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by Druscilla
 

I've had enough of this little dance for awhile, i have other things i need to do. I don't wish to come across combatively, i agree that we all need a healthy dose of skepticism to navigate such waters with so much smoke and mirrors, so i appreciate your wish to share information relating to the subject at hand . I only hope you will not attach blanket answers to an area that requires careful case by case analysis in my opinion, not simply certain hand picked studies to support your case or cause, whatever the case may be. Perhaps what you have as links has some validity, i do not have the time plus i am familiar enough with other cases of hypnosis gone awry to not really need or want to go through 17 links of yours. I get it already.

Bye for now, might check on this thread later.
edit on 5-9-2012 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by Runciter33
 


This has nothing to do with hypnosis.
Yes, there are cases which involve hypnosis, which I don't subscribe to primarily because of:

a. If the subject is indeed hypnotized, they're in a highly suggestible state and depending on the interviewer, the hypnosis can indeed lead to false memory.

b. If hypnosis doesn't work, the subject can pretend to be hypnotized for a 'certification of validity', and can thus make up any silly story they want and claim validation under hypnosis.

The studies linked deal primarily with sleep paralysis, examination of claimant abductees, and artificial replication of abduction experiences through drug interactions and other methodologies.

While false memory syndrome is a factor as it applies to a subjects interpretation of subjective highly interpretive internalized experiences, false memory syndrome as it applies to dodgy hypnosis techniques is not really discussed, nor is it the focus of the studies highlighted.

The focus of the linked studies is not hypnotism, or any application of it.
Hypnosis is unreliable and not really relevant to this topic as all arguments applicable to hypnosis are dodgy on both sides leading to non-definitive resolution.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by Druscilla
 


One thing I am trying figure out is how Dr Srassman came to his conclusions which were obviously...incorrect. The only thing I can think of is that he mentions in his interview that he got better results when he "threw out" the current psychological models in favor of just treating them as real. So when he did this, gained the trust of the volunteers and thus was forced into his conclusion. "Thanks for trusting me...loosers!"

Anyway, I have yet to hear from the real experiencers and so must conclude that they think these folks are all a bunch of drug crazed hippies who are experiencing drug hallucinations. hypocritical if you ask me. "oh we are so open minded about ALL experiences....except from the crazy tree hugging hippies on vitamin D". They see behind all kinds of curtains, but not the dirty drug hippies.



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by swan001

But I also know Earth is not the only Goldilock planet, that heavy documentation exists on the aliens that crashed and contacted the Government itself in 1951, that greys have been filmed by the KGB and the tapes buried for years. I know everything about that too. Are you now suggesting the Government and its intelligence agencies all experienced a massive illusion, documented it, and that novel military technologies (included as an exchange with the Greys according to the Edwards Agreement) all popped out from these illusions? That the videocamera from KGB has a funny way of getting crazy and starting filming greys that are not there?
edit on 5-9-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-9-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)


I'm interested in this KGB video you mention.
Are you talking about the one that is CGI?

There's actually quite a few CGI videos.
or are you talking about the video that is of a puppet?

The one embedded above is all CGI.

If the one above is not the video then, please show us which one you talk about.



edit on 5-9-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Druscilla
 


Yes, thank you. James Kent has an opposing view. apparently an experiment giving the "entities" math problems to pass on to other "volunteers" failed.
www.dosenation.com...
Interesting drawing.


They can't, they cannot prove they are here. You are really here, proving what you're made of, in a school. They don't give answers that prove things, or would lift the curtain world wide that they're here. That is not allowed. That would take everyone waking up or the world united asking for help.

There are many that would like to, I'm sure. I want them to and don't believe free will exists in this school. However positives are not renegades.

They can't give any definitive answers, there are enough clues and many nudges for people to seek for answers.

edit on 5-9-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Druscilla
 


One thing I am trying figure out is how Dr Srassman came to his conclusions which were obviously...incorrect. The only thing I can think of is that he mentions in his interview that he got better results when he "threw out" the current psychological models in favor of just treating them as real. So when he did this, gained the trust of the volunteers and thus was forced into his conclusion. "Thanks for trusting me...loosers!"

Anyway, I have yet to hear from the real experiencers and so must conclude that they think these folks are all a bunch of drug crazed hippies who are experiencing drug hallucinations. hypocritical if you ask me. "oh we are so open minded about ALL experiences....except from the crazy tree hugging hippies on vitamin D". They see behind all kinds of curtains, but not the dirty drug hippies.


Without proper documentation to describe how he came to his conclusions, any such conclusion would be suspect.
It could very well be, he fell victim to his own experiments, but, that's speculation.
Regardless, if there's no documentation to support the conclusions, then such conclusions are essentially inadmissible since in science you have to "show your work", and show it every step of the way, even the blind alleys, so that anyone else reviewing the work can follow the same logical path toward conclusion in looking for error or amendment.

You bunched quite a bit of his work together in that citation. While some aspects of his work are accepted, many of his assertions in actuality are not.


... Strassman has not provided much of the explanation for the mechanism's mysterious qualities by which this synthesis could produce levels of '___' that would lead to such effects. Although the necessary constituents (see methyltransferases) needed to make '___' are found in the pineal gland, the enzyme's stereospecificity only allows for the conversion of serotonin to melatonin and vice versa. Others in the field of neurochemistry have not accepted this explanation of '___''s role in this function due to the absence of supporting evidence (i.e. a plausible synthesis mechanism or direct evidence that '___' is found in higher concentration in the body under these circumstances).

Source -wiki



posted on Sep, 5 2012 @ 11:24 PM
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Also, the tests aren't really about knowing if ET is real. That is given to those who are more aware and came in with that assurance. We don't all need to learn the same lessons, it really depends one what we're working on in this world.

So that remains obscured enough that people need to their own homework and searches, if they are ready or called.

Gradually, more and more information is trickling out and the world is being readied for its next stage, with or without the NWO group, because that needs to be dealt with. And their depopulation and weather wars. They need to be arrested, people need to stand up, or stand still and not react to their soap opera and distractions and problem/reaction/solution, tactics. There is a natural consequence to enough people not waking up and shouting NO! But I was shown if NWO occurs, it won't last for long. They have alot of pissed off people under their wings, world wide, that they've bullied for a long time. And other things too, to do with technology.

I personally don't see it happening, but see things changing as more defeat their bills by challenging them and standing up and by whatever is going to go down.

But we didn't come to wake up to ET knowledge. That is what some people experience.

We came to overcome the murky/muddy areas of our diamond souls, so they can be clear and shine. ie. Greed, Anger, Retaliation, Selfishness, Apathy, Impatience, Meanness, all the Weaknesses that Souls have.
This world shows us up, what we are made of and what still needs work in us.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Druscilla
 


One thing I am trying figure out is how Dr Srassman came to his conclusions which were obviously...incorrect. The only thing I can think of is that he mentions in his interview that he got better results when he "threw out" the current psychological models in favor of just treating them as real. So when he did this, gained the trust of the volunteers and thus was forced into his conclusion. "Thanks for trusting me...loosers!"

Anyway, I have yet to hear from the real experiencers and so must conclude that they think these folks are all a bunch of drug crazed hippies who are experiencing drug hallucinations. hypocritical if you ask me. "oh we are so open minded about ALL experiences....except from the crazy tree hugging hippies on vitamin D". They see behind all kinds of curtains, but not the dirty drug hippies.


Without proper documentation to describe how he came to his conclusions, any such conclusion would be suspect.
It could very well be, he fell victim to his own experiments, but, that's speculation.
Regardless, if there's no documentation to support the conclusions, then such conclusions are essentially inadmissible since in science you have to "show your work", and show it every step of the way, even the blind alleys, so that anyone else reviewing the work can follow the same logical path toward conclusion in looking for error or amendment.

You bunched quite a bit of his work together in that citation. While some aspects of his work are accepted, many of his assertions in actuality are not.


... Strassman has not provided much of the explanation for the mechanism's mysterious qualities by which this synthesis could produce levels of '___' that would lead to such effects. Although the necessary constituents (see methyltransferases) needed to make '___' are found in the pineal gland, the enzyme's stereospecificity only allows for the conversion of serotonin to melatonin and vice versa. Others in the field of neurochemistry have not accepted this explanation of '___''s role in this function due to the absence of supporting evidence (i.e. a plausible synthesis mechanism or direct evidence that '___' is found in higher concentration in the body under these circumstances).

Source -wiki



Yes, I'm not sure about his "conclusions" or if that was an actual conclusion of the study. There is a lot of hype and books and movies out there so it is difficult to get to the heart of the matter. Nevertheless, this is an important study in my opinion and can provide some great insight how the mind works.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Druscilla
 


Yes, thank you. James Kent has an opposing view. apparently an experiment giving the "entities" math problems to pass on to other "volunteers" failed.
www.dosenation.com...
Interesting drawing.


They can't, they cannot prove they are here. You are really here, proving what you're made of, in a school. They don't give answers that prove things, or would lift the curtain world wide that they're here. That is not allowed. That would take everyone waking up or the world united asking for help.

There are many that would like to, I'm sure. I want them to and don't believe free will exists in this school. However positives are not renegades.

They can't give any definitive answers, there are enough clues and many nudges for people to seek for answers.

I am not sure what you mean.


For instance, when I recently asked a '___' elf for a prime factor of 23788, the '___' elf returned the visual rebus "Undulating Twinkie on rotating lotus, squirting." I'm not sure if that meant 23, but that's what I wrote down. Is that right?


can you decipher "Undulating Twinkie on rotating lotus, squirting."

Are these real entities then?





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