Did a RAF Tornado crash during a UFO intercept mission in 1997?

reply to post by FireMoon
The 90s were ridiculous for this kind of English ufological peeing on lamp-posts and barking at each other. I've read the fight between Clarke and Burns was simmering away until Burns visited the newspaper office of Clarke and called him out in front of everyone. This apparently led to the escalation and seek-and-destroy mission against Burns. It's on Updates somewhere and I can't link without permission from umpteen people.

I'd guess there's a lot of chickens and a lot of eggs in that lot. Not to mention UFO groups bickering and people leaving to form other groups and the right-wing nuts infiltrating as written about by Randles.

@ Mirageman - thank you for posting a well-written thread. I enjoy the cultural history of these events and the way in which people reacted to them. I'm North West and the places are all known which makes it more personal.

According to this www.ejection-history.org.uk... the RAF lost no tornados in 1997 they have given all this info on all these crashes why deny this one they did not have to say it was chasing a ufo

reply to post by dashdespatch


I posted that link earlier whilst saying, it's wholly possible a Tornado found itself in trouble, as they were notorious for doing especially when flying at low level, the Tornado dropped its' extra fuel tanks/weapons pods and the pilot ordered his navigator to eject, then regained control of the aircraft again.

Kandinsky, not saying I believe either party however, in this instance it's Clarke who comes up well short with his facts and figures and given the accusations against Roberts that have never been rebutted, it does show him for being a total hypocrite.

What we do know is this,a good number of people said they saw a large UFO that night and the number is only increasing with time. The rest, well that's your usual bean feast of claim and counter claim and frankly, Clarke is becoming ever less believable about anything to do with the MOD as time passes.

reply to post by FireMoon


I wouldnt have thought they would do a feul/weapons dump over an inhabbited area?

reply to post by dashdespatch


It's about as uninhabited an area as you will find outside of parts of the far north, mostly bog and lakes.

reply to post by FireMoon


I used to holiday there 3 or 4 times a year you are never more than about 5 miles from a village

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
Whether or not the UFO(s) were extraterrestrial or military is not an issue in my mind.
If it was military, the craft was in all probability inspired by ET/Other intellegence craft.

Good thread, this is an interesting case! Star and flag.

edit on 28-8-2012 by thesearchfortruth because:

Sure it's an issue. Being able to determine if something is unidentifiable (and identifying it) is only half the battle. If the RAF scrambled jets to intercept, then their airspace was compromised. That means either by an alien country or an actual alien. I think that distinction is important.

Still trying to digest this. If a plane went down, they would be a debris field - not something easily cleaned up in a matter of hours.

Max Burns and Jet Fuel man - too funny.

Originally posted by flashtrum

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
Whether or not the UFO(s) were extraterrestrial or military is not an issue in my mind.
If it was military, the craft was in all probability inspired by ET/Other intellegence craft.

Good thread, this is an interesting case! Star and flag.

edit on 28-8-2012 by thesearchfortruth because:

Sure it's an issue. Being able to determine if something is unidentifiable (and identifying it) is only half the battle. If the RAF scrambled jets to intercept, then their airspace was compromised. That means either by an alien country or an actual alien. I think that distinction is important.

Still trying to digest this. If a plane went down, they would be a debris field - not something easily cleaned up in a matter of hours.

Max Burns and Jet Fuel man - too funny.

I found that Max Burns and Jet Fuel man quite amusing as well

I've got to say having looked into this prior to the UK Bank holiday I couldn't really remember much if anything about it from 1997. Perhaps it didn't receive much national media coverage?

Although it's fairly recent history, it was before the time of smartphone/cameras and the fast speed, media rich internet we enjoy today was still years away for all but a few. News did not travel as far or as fast in those days of analogue TV (even via satellite).

There are some things we know and some things that remain less factual in this case.

We know that ;

1) The MoD ,eventually, admitted to having low flying aircraft in the Peak District until 9.30pm.

2) Two sonic booms occurred 14 minutes apart, the first at 9.52pm and the second at 10.06pm recorded by the BGS/ This was AFTER the fighters were reported by RAF as having returned to base.

3) There were no meteors reported in the area so the source of the sonic booms has to be from some kind of aircraft (friendly or not).

4) No reports of missing aircraft were logged from within the UK.

5) An an air exclusion zone was placed around Howden reservoir on the morning of 25th March 1997 after a costly search and rescue exercise in the early hours.

6) Multiple and varying witness reports confirming various types of aircraft, odd lights and explosions all around the South Yorkshire and Peak District area. Although witness testimony is not always reliable I think we can say that something unusual happened that night. The police log even confirmed video footage taken by two young men but they were unable to identify the aircraft from it.

The rest of this story of a UFO,downed Tornado, a fuel soaked, ejected co-pilot lost on a viaduct and an MoD/RAF/Government cover up are all unproven.

I do find it difficult to believe a Tornado aircraft came down into one of the reservoirs or into the moors without someone finding some trace of it. Some witnesses may have been confused and seen elements involved in the search and rescue operation and reported them as the strange aircraft and lights.

However it certainly seems plausible that there was a cover up regarding the sonic booms and the low flying aircraft after 9.30pm. Perhaps the crashed Tornado story is a total red herring for clandestine military activity?

As I said before the Phoenix lights incident occurred about 10 days prior to this case across the Atlantic and there are some similarities between the two events. Is that simply coincidence?

Interesting post!

Being a Sheffield resident and an interested party, I'm surprised I've never heard of this before!

Interestingly, in late 1997 I was living with my girlfriend in Hunter's Bar, Sheffield, and we saw what can only be described as as a large-sized and very distant fire in the night's sky in the direction of Endcliffe Park.. very unusual! (not a lantern lol - sustained and remained in the same spot for 30 mins or so)... Might tie-in?

One of my colleagues is a key member of the Mountain Rescue Team in that area, so will interrogate his ass with this! lol

reply to post by mirageman


"Well researched" - no. The reservoir is Ladybower not "Ladybowen". You guys are only going to be truly credible when you are TRULY well researched and accurate, until then anyone who has half an idea will not take these things seriously. Please get it right.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Not in the North West; it's in South Yorkshire which is central/ eastern, north England...

Let's clear one thing up, It wasn't "Mr Burn's Jet Fuel man" it was a witness, Mr Jonathan Dagenhart who , on tape said one thing and then later ,tried to retract what they had said. Plus, the police then come out and say, it was a "failed suicide" admitting fully, that there was someone on the moors covered in fuel of some sort. Personally, I find the "failed suicide bid" probably more ridiculous than the possibility of a single aircrew ejecting and the other aircrew member managing to regain control of the craft.


Plus please people, if you intend to contribute to a thread, please read it fully and then read the links provided fully as well. David Clarke himself documents how, the RAF did indeed "completely lose" a plane in this very area several years before. It buried itself 50 feet into the bog on impact and was deemed totally unsalvageable and within hours, all that there was to show it had crashed was a raised bank of earth round an 8 foot deep pool of water.

Personally, I don't think they lost a Tornado at all, I suspect a Tornado might have problems and dropped its' outboard pod(s) . If it was a weapons pod, they most likely ditched in it a lake and there would have been an attempt to salvage it or, at the very least , make sure no-one else could salvage it either.

What we can say is this, if there were 2 sonic booms caused by RAF aircraft then there's not a hope in hells' chance it was a "routine flight", as it breaks just about every rule in the book, particularly given the time the "booms" occurred. it is almost 100% certain that if RAF aircraft were allowed to go supersonic, over land, at that time of the night, they were on "active service".

S & F

Originally posted by TheWoolf
reply to post by mirageman

 

"Well researched" - no. The reservoir is Ladybower not "Ladybowen". You guys are only going to be truly credible when you are TRULY well researched and accurate, until then anyone who has half an idea will not take these things seriously. Please get it right.

Oh no- he got one letter wrong- well, we better write the whole thread off then.

And Kandinsky said he was North West, not the area in question.

A facinating read, and not one I had head about. Whilst we are talking about plane crashes in remote areas, back in 2001, my partners father, who is a keen walker and climber was up in the Cairngorm mountains with his climbing partner- miles from anywhere, they came over a rise into a scene straight out of the X-files. A Chinook helicopter was in the process of dropping off an 'incident room' trailer to a temporary compound full of US soldiers. There are soldiers in full combat gear riding around on ATC's and those tracked vehicles you see out in the Arctic. As they are taking the scene in, they hear "Halt!"- a British soldier, fully blacked up, stands up 30 ft away and points his SA80 at them. Another couple of soldiers appear and they are held and questioned as to why they are there, who they were- proper 3rd degree- bearing in mind the are up Ben Macdui in the middle of the Cairngorms, its not something you would expect to encounter. Then a Policeman that they knew from Braemar appeared, and told them "you boys bet get the hell out of here- these guys arent messing about" After they are released, and told in no uncertain terms to 'beat it', they headed back down. The soldiers refused to give them any information as to who they were, what regiment they were in or what they were doing up there. My girlfriends Dad came back down quite shaken and bemused.

It turns out that 2 F15C Eagles had collided- one was being piloted by the Squadron CO, who although was cleared to fly F15's, hadnt done so for some time, and was attempting to do low level work in mountainous country. "Unconfirmed local media reports said "a member of the public" was hearing an explosion in the mountainous area at about the same time." but they didnt confirm the loss of an aircraft for several days after the encounter, even though they knew exactly where the crash site was. This is the incident:

"On 26 March 2001,[5] during a low flying training exercise over the Scottish Highlands, two US Air Force F-15Cs crashed near the summit of Ben Macdui in the Cairngorms.[6] Both, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth John Hyvonen and Captain Kirk Jones died in the accident which would later result in a court martial for an RAF air traffic controller, who was later found not guilty.[7]"

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by TheWoolf
reply to post by mirageman

 

"Well researched" - no. The reservoir is Ladybower not "Ladybowen". You guys are only going to be truly credible when you are TRULY well researched and accurate, until then anyone who has half an idea will not take these things seriously. Please get it right.

Yes my error. Sorry if a typo on the map and just below totally invalidated the story for anyone.

TheWoolf - who are 'the guys' you refer to? Why do I need credibility? (I am not a UFOlogist, writer or journalist).

This theory was not my idea. I stumbled upon it last weekend and thought it may be of interest to others. I don't actually agree with all of it. Although I suspect something strange happened ,as you may have gathered, if you have read through the thread posts.

Would you care to air your own thoughts on the events?

================================================================

So anyway. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of Max Burns discussing this case.

Please note these are 'rushes' and nowhere near a finished production. They are linked here:


www.youtube.com...

There is over an hour of raw video for those who have the patience.


www.youtube.com...

This is a shorter video and meant as a summary. Burns presents some of the evidence (badly in places) and sums up as follows with what he thinks occurred (for those who haven't time to trawl through it):

"1. One of the Tornado jets has shot one of, or the triangle, whilst being completely destroyed itself.

2.If that was the case was the sighting of the triangle at 12.30 - 12.45 a rescue triangle for occupants of the first triangle?

3. There was only one triangle and it completely destroyed the Tornado jet and pilot.

4. The triangle has captured the jet and the pilot.

I hereby state that the evidence contained in this dossier is what I believe a true and accurate statement regarding the sighting and military contact with the loss of at least one Tornado Jet and a pilot during an encounter with an extraterrestrial spacecraft on the 24th March 1997."

I hope I got it right this time.

This was videoed in 1998 and I can't say I agree with any of those conclusions. The guy may have been onto something but I think Firemoon's theory of a Tornado in trouble may have been closer to what happened.

Stating an ET craft was involved seems to be massive conjecture by Mr. Burns.

reply to post by TheWoolf


Derbyshire wasnt it?

reply to post by qubix


Read my reply earlier in the thread about the lights i was staying in Grindleford near Hathersadge

reply to post by mirageman


Good job putting this together!!

This is something I have never heard of before......

S&F for your efforts!!

Originally posted by Thunda

Originally posted by TheWoolf
reply to post by mirageman

 

"Well researched" - no. The reservoir is Ladybower not "Ladybowen". You guys are only going to be truly credible when you are TRULY well researched and accurate, until then anyone who has half an idea will not take these things seriously. Please get it right.

Oh no- he got one letter wrong- well, we better write the whole thread off then.

And Kandinsky said he was North West, not the area in question.

A facinating read, and not one I had head about. Whilst we are talking about plane crashes in remote areas, back in 2001, my partners father, who is a keen walker and climber was up in the Cairngorm mountains with his climbing partner- miles from anywhere, they came over a rise into a scene straight out of the X-files. A Chinook helicopter was in the process of dropping off an 'incident room' trailer to a temporary compound full of US soldiers. There are soldiers in full combat gear riding around on ATC's and those tracked vehicles you see out in the Arctic. As they are taking the scene in, they hear "Halt!"- a British soldier, fully blacked up, stands up 30 ft away and points his SA80 at them. Another couple of soldiers appear and they are held and questioned as to why they are there, who they were- proper 3rd degree- bearing in mind the are up Ben Macdui in the middle of the Cairngorms, its not something you would expect to encounter. Then a Policeman that they knew from Braemar appeared, and told them "you boys bet get the hell out of here- these guys arent messing about" After they are released, and told in no uncertain terms to 'beat it', they headed back down. The soldiers refused to give them any information as to who they were, what regiment they were in or what they were doing up there. My girlfriends Dad came back down quite shaken and bemused.

It turns out that 2 F15C Eagles had collided- one was being piloted by the Squadron CO, who although was cleared to fly F15's, hadnt done so for some time, and was attempting to do low level work in mountainous country. "Unconfirmed local media reports said "a member of the public" was hearing an explosion in the mountainous area at about the same time." but they didnt confirm the loss of an aircraft for several days after the encounter, even though they knew exactly where the crash site was. This is the incident:

"On 26 March 2001,[5] during a low flying training exercise over the Scottish Highlands, two US Air Force F-15Cs crashed near the summit of Ben Macdui in the Cairngorms.[6] Both, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth John Hyvonen and Captain Kirk Jones died in the accident which would later result in a court martial for an RAF air traffic controller, who was later found not guilty.[7]"

en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 31-8-2012 by Thunda because: spelling

That's a very compelling story which suggests that the UK, USA, NATO and our special relationship is not always that special. However I am a little confused. Were our (British) troops warning off the Americans or vice versa? And who were the police addressing?

reply to post by mirageman


That is one of the most interesting UFO incidents I have ever read.

It seems quite possible to me that if the Tornado jet did crash or disappear in the vicinity of the reservoir, then it is quite possible that this information might be covered up by the military and other civilian authorities. I found the raw video to be very persuasive that this is a major incident with a major coverup.

Some of the information described reminds me of an incident which occurred in October 1953 when a F-94 Starfire from Otis Air Force Base, near Falmouth, MA, experienced an explosion or fire in its engine. The pilot bailed at low altitude, but no trace of the jet or radar operator was ever found. It was alleged that this was a UFO related incident, although no details documenting a role for the UFO are found in the USAF accident report. The pilot managed to parachute onto land and was slightly injured and rather distressed when he was found. It was thought that the jet crashed into nearby Buzzards Bay. They apparently dragged the bay for months after, but never found any wreckage.

This was just a month before the Kinross Incident, when a USAF F-89 jet interceptor disappeared after merging with a bogie on radar, over the middle of Lake Superior.

One thing I've noticed in incidents like these, is that not only is the military and civilian authorities releasing contradictory explanations, but there may be actual observations which don't rationally fit into any coherent explanation for the event. I have hypothesized that if ET intelligence is behind these incidents, that they may be “fabricating” anomalous events that make it impossible to get a definitive explanation for what actually happened.

In the case of the Kinross Incident, there are at least two such anomalies. One was that the crew of an F-89 that was in the air conducting a search mission heard a brief radio transmission from the pilot of the missing F-89, 40 minutes after his plane disappeared off radar. One explanation might be that the pilot was still flying his jet, but this seems highly unlikely. When the F-89 was lost off radar, its IFF signal was also lost at the same time. At least four USAF radar stations were monitoring the area at the time.

Another related anomaly was that a railway maintenance crew heard a low flying jet and a crash some period of time after the jet disappeared. This was about 120 miles due east of the area where the jet disappeared in a remote part of the Canadian shield. An area where you were highly unlikely to ever hear any jet traffic in the early 1950s.

If it is possible that an advanced intelligence is involved in these incidents, then it may be possible that they actually have means of creating phenomena (audible, visual, etc) that might make it difficult and frustrating for the military investigators to find the explanations for an encounter, especially if the encounter resulted in the disappearance of an Air Force jet and crew (as one example).

I'd be interested to read any other material that Max Burns published on his investigation as it seems apparent that he was keenly trying to get to the bottom of the mystery of what occurred in this incident.