It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Evil?

page: 2
2
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 12:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Hefficide
 


It is acknowledged often today that Adolf Hitler thought he was the Anti-Christ. He order the death of 6 million Israelites and about 2 million other Christians, he felt were not in keeping with his perspective, how Christians should act. Stalin killed about 10 million of his own people ad Mao about 40 million, because they were not prepared to conform to an ideology.

I am suggesting this as a sort of baseline

Though effectively the quoted Wilkepedia reference sugests, in and of itsef something to be considered, in a general way.



Evil is commonly associated with conscious and deliberate wrongdoing, discrimination designed to harm others, humiliation of people designed to diminish their psychological well-being and dignity, destructiveness, motives of causing pain or suffering for selfish or malicious intentions, and acts of unnecessary or indiscriminate violence



Any thoughts?




posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 01:15 AM
link   
reply to post by Kashai
 


Adolph Hitler was very obviously mentally ill and quite possibly suffering from neuro-syphillis.. While I cannot find direct evidence that he considered himself an antichrist - there is ample evidence that he was not fond of religion. The question here is, if Hitler was effectively insane or operating in diminished capacity... can we truly hang the word "evil" around his neck? I realize that this statement might spark anger in some and I want to be clear that I am not a Hitler supporter in any way, shape, or form... and there is no question that what the Nazi's did was utterly beyond understanding and unspeakably wrong. The link I provided earlier, about Hannah Ardent saying that evil was banal was her assessment from the perspective of a Jew who almost got caught up in the holocaust and was watching the Nuremburg trials because of her outrage towards Nazi Germany.

Her final assessments were that where she wanted to see monsters, she only found small, little men, with no imaginations or personalities. Sad men who didn't seem to understand what they had done.

A madman being followed by sheep... is that evil in the true sense of the word? Their works certainly qualify. But they, themselves, seem to be nothing more than tragic, lost, misguided little men.

Stalin, rumor has it, once said that killing one man is a tragedy, but killing a million is a statistic, or something close to that. Again... to get to those levels of death you can't utilize monsters. You utilize bureaucrats and hourly employees. People who fail to understand the big picture.

Banality truly fits if you remove emotion and look at the details.

As for your definition of evil. It works in the general sense. But it falls apart when that template is superimposed upon large events. It also doesn't address perspective. Is the slave who turns against his abusive master and slays him evil? Is the tough love parent evil for being too disciplinarian with a petulant child? These are gray areas, open to interpretation and to be taken on a case by case basis. No prefabricated definitions universally fit.

I'm still stuck on just what evil is.

~Heff



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 01:52 AM
link   
reply to post by Hefficide
 


I would offer that evil is a form of ignorance, in regards to reality as a whole. Harming others because of that ignorance in any way, due to conclusions, Differences, justify violence or aggression, simply because observables imply a difference.

Irrespective of course of race, creed or color we are all still different. Our problem is when we treat differences as insurmountable in respect to identifying things in common.

Any thoughts?



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 01:56 AM
link   
reply to post by Kashai
 


In that regard...

It's my belief that ignorance is born of fear. Decisions made in ignorance are then decisions made out of emotional need rather than conscious thought. This is a difficult thing for most people to understand. We are thinking animals and we do not like our emotions to control us. Our minds know this, so we create rationales and justifications for our emotional decisions.

If we are going to put the label of evil upon something, anything... then we'd have to agree that to be evil is to be proactive. And since fear is a reaction... these definitions fall apart.

~Heff



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 02:27 AM
link   
hi.
ihavent watched the vid yet,but i will.
in my opinion evil is something that is done for the sole purpouse of being evil.
yes there is evil acts, but no matter how evil they seem to us as bystanders they dont have the purpouse of being evil.
for example, a rape is evil but the rapist dont do it to be evil, he does it because he has a sexual urge to do it.

therefore i dont believe evil exists, other than in the eye of the bystanders, or victims.

does it make sence?

jimmy



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 03:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Kashai
 

All evil is relative, to the victim, and all goodness, mercy, truth, beauty and justice, the only absolute we can be absolutely certain of via the work of the cross of Jesus Christ (as the willing victim of evil)

Your saying absolute goodness, mercy, truth, beauty and justice could only be attained through evil. Maybe that is not what you meant but that's what it says.


Good question. No I'm saying that the problem of evil was anticipated, and trancended by a Great Work of the ages, which paradoxically did require the evil as the backdrop by which to illuminate the higher truth. It was attained not through evil but in spite of it, but in a way does appear to have made use of it, in putting it down. Some things are just so mysterious they're hard for us to understand, but for God who transcends the duality, such things are in his domain of possibility, so I can't answer this question fully and in all honesty.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 03:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Good question. No I'm saying that the problem of evil was anticipated, and trancended by a Great Work of the ages, which paradoxically did require the evil as the backdrop by which to illuminate the higher truth. It was attained not through evil but in spite of it, but in a way does appear to have made use of it, in putting it down. Some things are just so mysterious they're hard for us to understand, but for God who transcends the duality, such things are in his domain of possibility, so I can't answer this question fully and in all honesty.

Doesn't matter.

I was just showing the circular logic that your God (according to you) seems to use. I don't accept the "mysterious ways" answer.

The topic is evil and, as Hefficide has pointed out, it is hard to define, while you go as far as casting it into the abyss. Rhetoric has a way of making all things possible.
edit on 29-8-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 03:53 PM
link   
reply to post by daskakik
 

Evil is a house divided, and it's fundamentally irrational so where is it ultimately to go other than into oblivion?

However it's nice to see and recognize a standard of judgement that is at once the height of Justice AND Mercy, which altogether transcends it, where indeed all evil is/was relative to the victim, and thus according to a standard of justice put in place by a willing and blameless victim of evil, it may then be turned out at right angles against itself ie: thrown into the abyss (oblivion).

Don't tell me you're one of those people who will argue for the neccessity of evil and play the devil's advocate just to rebel against what God has done in relation to evil..? I sure hope not, that that's not how far you're prepared to go just to be an "atheist"? That would be absurd.


edit on 29-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:00 PM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

We haven't even come to a consensus as to what evil is and you are going on and on about it.

Your definition doesn't cut it for me and probably others in this thread, therefore I see your statements as based on a flawed premise.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:26 PM
link   
reply to post by daskakik
 

Would you agree that it's irrational or unreasonable (however cunning and calculating it may be, or thinks it is) and the cause of victimization?

I'm obviously enamoured with the idea of evil being blindsided by a higher truth and reason capable of blowing it away, maybe that's not your cup of t, and that's fine.

That it exists or operates as a problem in the world of human affairs I don't think anyone can argue against, do you?

So what I did was simply relativize it in relation to it's victims who are many, and at some level we've all been victimized by it to one degree or another.

I also like the idea of a Grace under which we are liberated from the duality of good and evil and of should and should not, into a domain of freedom and new possibility where the only addage might be "love, as do as you will" (St. Augustine).



Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish justice in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
~ Amos 5:15


Love in Action
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

~ Romans 12: 9-21



Amos 5:15 Translations

King James Version (KJV)

Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

American King James Version (AKJV)

Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

American Standard Version (ASV)

Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish justice in the gate: it may be that Jehovah, the God of hosts, will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Basic English Translation (BBE)

Be haters of evil and lovers of good, and let right be done in the public place: it may be that the Lord, the God of armies, will have mercy on the rest of Joseph.

Webster's Revision

Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish justice in the gate: it may be that Jehovah, the God of hosts, will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

World English Bible

Hate evil, love good, and establish justice in the courts. It may be that Yahweh, the God of Armies, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph."

English Revised Version (ERV)

Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts, will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Clarke's Commentary on Amos 5:15

Hate the evil, and love the good - What ruins you, avoid; what helps you, cleave to. And as a proof that you take this advice, purify the seats of justice, and then expect God to be gracious to the remnant of Joseph - to the posterity of the ten tribes.

Barnes' Notes on Amos 5:15

Hate the evil and love the good - Man will not cease wholly to "seek evil," unless he "hate" it; nor will he "seek good," unless he "love" it. Jerome: "He 'hateth evil,' who not only is not overcome by pleasure, but hates its deeds; and he 'loveth good,' who, not unwillingly or of necessity or from fear, doth what is good, but because it is good." Dionysius: "Evil of sin must be hated, in and for itself; the sinner must not be hated in himself, but only the evil in him." They hated him, who reproved them; he bids them hate sin. They "set down righteousness on the ground;" he bids them, "establish," literally, "set up firmly, judgment in the gate." To undo, as far as anyone can, the effects of past sin, is among the first-fruits of repentance.

www.godvine.com...


edit on 29-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:30 PM
link   
Evil is bad. Bad things cause you harm and make you feel pain.
Good things benefit you and cause you to feel pleasure.

Too much of a good thing is bad so a little evil must be good then? Sometimes doing bad things feels good and good things feel bad. A masochist would think pain is good or pleasurable. Good and evil events are subjective to all that experience those events.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:32 PM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

Actually I have already said, in a previous post, that I don't believe it even exists.

The fact that it has yet to be pinned down, as far as this thread is concerned, strengthens my conviction.

edit on 29-8-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:37 PM
link   
reply to post by daskakik
 

Tell that to the victims of evil.

One thing I'd like to say though is that the good is never justified by evil but is good for goodness' sake.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 04:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by daskakik
 

Tell that to the victims of evil.

I think you have already told them in your own words:


Originally posted by NewAgeMan
 

All evil is relative, to the victim,


edit on 29-8-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 05:04 PM
link   
reply to post by daskakik
 

Here is what Jesus said about it, who from what I've been able to gather, devoted a great deal of time and energy contemplating the problem of human sin and evil.


Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

~ Mathew 5:38-48
www.biblegateway.com...



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 05:15 PM
link   
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 

Maybe this is one of those posts that you make for others and not specifically for me. If so I will ask that you click on the "Post Reply" button instead of the "Reply-To" button.

In case it was for me, I don't believe anyone knows what Jesus really said about anything and those quotes don't really do anything to define what evil is.
edit on 29-8-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 05:27 PM
link   
I think the idea Jesus was presenting in the sermon on the mount, was that we can love good and hate evil for it's victimization, yet on the other hand, it's important not to react against it with vengeance, and in this way via non-resistence, it's energy isn't sustained as a self-reinforcing process of reaction/response in the face of evil, and by the power of forgiveness and non-resistence it can be undone or stopped in its tracks. His saying can be nutshelled in the statement "resist not evil" which has nothing to do with any sort of embrace of it or as a permissive framework to sin, but non-resistence as the only effective solution to it. Also his talk of turning the other cheek, going the extra mile and giving your cloak also, those things involved the reponse of the downtrodden in relation to the oppressor (Roman), where turning the other cheek would force him to punch you head on, going the extra mile involved carrying their crap twice as far as was already unreasonable to begin with, and giving your cloak when he asks for your tunic leaves you in your underwear, and these suggestions would surely have evoked a mirthful and humorous response from those listening, because these things are also designed to humiliate and bring shame upon the evil doer. Basically he was teaching them non-violent non-resistance as the appropriate reaction/response to oppression (bullying).


edit on 29-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 05:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Basically he was teaching them non-violent non-resistance as the appropriate reaction/response to oppression (bullying).

Like the Jews during WWII.

Wow, was he wrong about that one.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 05:40 PM
link   
reply to post by daskakik
 

You have to factor in context and framing... and Jesus' own clash with an evil empire and their Jewish proxies.

Um I thought you said there's no such thing, and are now citing one of the greatest evil's ever perpetrated in human history, although I often wonder what other forces and PTB behind the scenes were aiding and abetting Hitler's rise to power and the gearing up of his war machine for what Churchill called "the unnecessary war!"



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 06:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by daskakik
 

You have to factor in context and framing... and Jesus' own clash with an evil empire and their Jewish proxies.

Just a small zinger with a bit of countering truth.


Um I thought you said there's no such thing, and are now citing one of the greatest evil's ever perpetrated in human history, although I often wonder what other forces and PTB behind the scenes were aiding and abetting Hitler's rise to power and the gearing up of his war machine for what Churchill called "the unnecessary war!"

I didn't say it was evil. I meant that it showed that "non-violent non-resistance as the appropriate reaction/response to oppression (bullying)" doesn't always work.



new topics

top topics



 
2
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join