Camden, New Jersey dumps whole Police Dept!

This is shocking and just outrageous. Everyone probably knows my stance on Public Sector Unions.

HOWEVER...... There are ways to address that problem. if the nation comes to agree with the side I'm standing on and we all choose to change that, AS a nation. Even if the change is CHOSEN at a more local level, it's got to happen in a controlled and proper way. There again, only after the majority of citizens whom the decision will most directly effect have voted or otherwise shown the consensus to remove Unions from public sector areas.

THIS is NOT the way to do that! This is insanity!

In the latest example of a cash-strapped municipality taking drastic measures to deal with swollen public sector liabilities and shrinking budgets, the city plans to disband its 460-member police department and replace it with a non-union “Metro Division” of the Camden County Police. Backers of the plan say it will save millions of dollars for taxpayers while ensuring public safety, but police unions say it is simply a way to get out of collective bargaining with the men and women in blue.

This isn't removing the Unions from the public sector by deliberate choice and careful process. This is the deciding of a few Politicians and doing it in a catastrophic way!

Camden County Mayor Dana Redd has said layoffs of the city’s police force will begin by the end of the month. Only 49 percent of current city police officers will be transferred to the new county division, whose members will begin a four- to five-month training program.

As another part of the article states, the above means that those getting axed in the end will be required to help train their replacements. Some 51% by the above figure won't be invited to keep their job after the transition to non-union police.

“A county police force that has a reasonable contract, and that’s going to provide a huge increase in the number of police officers on the streets here in Camden, is a win for everybody,” Christie said at a recent event at Rutgers-Camden University, where he signed a reform bill for higher education. “I’m willing to put my name on the line for this concept.”

Sourc e

This last part sounds great but it'll be the first time I've ever seen such a drastic and desparation move produce ANYTHING positive for long term results. Camden is not the city to be experimenting and trying new things with, IMO. Their crime rates are nothing to laugh at by any means.




Total 2012 crime stats there figure out to 16 crimes per day, every day, 365/year. This is a city of 77,000 people. Politics aside, the destruction by budgetary move is just stupid on steroids.

Are they really suggesting that NO other program, efforts or costs in the whole city budget can be trimmed? Every non-essential or non-safety related line item, to the dollar has been cut? I feel that is where a city should be before making ANY cuts or fundamental changes to Fire or Police. Those two services are not just another budget item. People DIE if those two aren't properly funded, handled and staffed by people who know what they are doing.

Look at the Empire State Building shootings for an example and what a great idea this is to keep 49% experienced cops and 51% new replacements. Surely ALL won't be rookies, but that really is beside the point, IMO. I sure worry for the people of Camden.

What say everyone? Good move or Crazytown?

This is totally crazy. The police might want to protest by not working for a month and see what happens next.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


If you actually took the time to read those numbers carefully, you would not find such a drastic difference in crime rates.

Therefore, you can't blame this on union labor as you'd so desperately like to do.

Good luck to Camden. Maybe that'll send more of their retarded drivers up our way, where we can mock them for making dangerous, not to mention illegal, traffic maneuvers.

Hey, they think the unions are the problem.

In reality, they're all lapping it from the till....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Perhaps you have a better plan. Regardless, unions are an evil that is no longer necessary. They are damaging the economy by not allowing workforce to flux with market. It makes it to where only larger companies, with larger workforces, can actually flex efficiently enough to staff appropriately to market.

Even more, it drives the cost of sales higher, which we all see as an increase in price.

There was a time when workers in union with each other benefitted everyone. But "the union" is a beast that was, or at least should have, not meant to be.

If you want to lower crime, create a smart way to arm the citizens in a legal manner. Would you go crawling through a window looking for loot if you knew they were armed?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


its a privatized force that they are going to use, meaning expect tickets to skyrocket to pay for their "jobs". Police in general should know their time is up. 60,000 a year to call up 5 backup cars if they feel threatened = waste of tax payer money. I hate to bust their balls but lets get real here every cop has a gun, assault rifles,shotguns, taser, pepper spray,baton,handcuffs, bullet proof vest, challenger police car with battering ram yet if they pull over a car with 2 or 3 people in it they need 5 cars to harass them correctly. I understand the two cop rule but not 6 or seven because chances are the civilians don't have half that and if they did they would probably call a police helicopter and 3 swat teams

It all comes down to people not making enough money to pay enough taxes to support the needs of the people. That should be good for two lines.

Originally posted by VaterOrlaag
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Therefore, you can't blame this on union labor as you'd so desperately like to do.

I'm not sure if you misread everything i said by accident, or deliberately misstating it. Either way, let me correct the mistake.

I started by saying people probably know my position on Unions in the Public Sector.

I Snipped out where I expanded on that thought to explain just what those feelings are...figuring I really didn't have to. It's not like I'm subtle on some things....

After saying that though, I went on through the entire OP to state how totally insane it is to DROP or disband the Union this way. I also stated, clearly, that Unions SHOULD NOT be removed from the public sector and especially Police or Fire WITHOUT the consent of the citizens most directly effected.

I'd also note, this crazy move is being endorsed and surely encouraged by New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. A Republican's Republican. So much for anyone figuring I have party or ideological loyalty. It's case by case for me. In this case, the man's a moron of truly staggering proportions.

On the crime rate, type "Camden, New Jersey" into google. Nothing more. Just that. Two of the top hits are, by specific wording, referring to Camden as one of the highest crime cities in the United States. The stats are from a couple years ago, but as the chart showed (and why I included it) not much has changed...and if it earned it's place as being termed among America's worst for crime in 08/09, it hasn't improved.

Ask Stockton, California how it works out when the Police Department gets kicked in the family jewels and told to deal with it. Err.... I wouldn't even stop in Stockton to buy a coke in the last few months I was trucking in that area for Produce.

Originally posted by cloaked4u
This is totally crazy. The police might want to protest by not working for a month and see what happens next.

wouldn't it be amazing to see them protest and get arrested for protesting. then they could struggle to find a job with that under their belt and have employers say Umm yeah sorry why did you get arrested again, yeah sorry there isnt any openings right now.

I wonder if they would have a moment like "oh that's how that feels"

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
This is shocking and just outrageous. Everyone probably knows my stance on Public Sector Unions.

HOWEVER...... There are ways to address that problem. if the nation comes to agree with the side I'm standing on and we all choose to change that, AS a nation. Even if the change is CHOSEN at a more local level, it's got to happen in a controlled and proper way. There again, only after the majority of citizens whom the decision will most directly effect have voted or otherwise shown the consensus to remove Unions from public sector areas.

THIS is NOT the way to do that! This is insanity!

In the latest example of a cash-strapped municipality taking drastic measures to deal with swollen public sector liabilities and shrinking budgets, the city plans to disband its 460-member police department and replace it with a non-union “Metro Division” of the Camden County Police. Backers of the plan say it will save millions of dollars for taxpayers while ensuring public safety, but police unions say it is simply a way to get out of collective bargaining with the men and women in blue.

Not shocking this a Mayor that knows these public sector unions require individuals to work double shifts, avg one per week, and drives up the cost of over time enormously. All police departments, private security firms"paid by local and federal govermants, corrections facilities across the country do it. Its why most budgets are 50% or more for judical period
This isn't removing the Unions from the public sector by deliberate choice and careful process. This is the deciding of a few Politicians and doing it in a catastrophic way!

Camden County Mayor Dana Redd has said layoffs of the city’s police force will begin by the end of the month. Only 49 percent of current city police officers will be transferred to the new county division, whose members will begin a four- to five-month training program.

As another part of the article states, the above means that those getting axed in the end will be required to help train their replacements. Some 51% by the above figure won't be invited to keep their job after the transition to non-union police.

“A county police force that has a reasonable contract, and that’s going to provide a huge increase in the number of police officers on the streets here in Camden, is a win for everybody,” Christie said at a recent event at Rutgers-Camden University, where he signed a reform bill for higher education. “I’m willing to put my name on the line for this concept.”

Sourc e

This last part sounds great but it'll be the first time I've ever seen such a drastic and desparation move produce ANYTHING positive for long term results. Camden is not the city to be experimenting and trying new things with, IMO. Their crime rates are nothing to laugh at by any means.

Total 2012 crime stats there figure out to 16 crimes per day, every day, 365/year. This is a city of 77,000 people. Politics aside, the destruction by budgetary move is just stupid on steroids.

Are they really suggesting that NO other program, efforts or costs in the whole city budget can be trimmed? Every non-essential or non-safety related line item, to the dollar has been cut? I feel that is where a city should be before making ANY cuts or fundamental changes to Fire or Police. Those two services are not just another budget item. People DIE if those two aren't properly funded, handled and staffed by people who know what they are doing.

Look at the Empire State Building shootings for an example and what a great idea this is to keep 49% experienced cops and 51% new replacements. Surely ALL won't be rookies, but that really is beside the point, IMO. I sure worry for the people of Camden.

What say everyone? Good move or Crazytown?

Unions have honestly been a very large part of whats wrong with our economy,
we did need them in the past to have our rights as humans protected, now however
they are one of the causes of the major problems we have, the post above is correct
in saying they are far to inflexible for modern day business, with my own eyes i have
seen this play out in local factories, union guys want more, more , more while the
company is already struggling in the economy.

the guys i worked with in 2008 when
the big bubble popped where getting pissed that their golf carts mights get taken
away, yes i said golf carts, they used them to get around the facility because they were
far too lazy to walk, these people would sit beside a trash can and drop trash on the floor
because they couldn't muster the decency to lift their arm a little higher, they milked the
clock all the time, i could watch for 4 hours while doing my job around the facility,
i would see a group of 2 or 3 sometimes more or less sit that entire time on the
clock in overtime because the contract they had required they get a set amount
of that...... oh and they sat in the kitchen watching tv, now im not saying they all did it
but most of them did, there were some honest to god hard workers there too, they
could work me under the table.

what im getting at is these lazy people want
everything given to them while doing only 5% of the work they are paid for then
have the audacity to complain, threaten to strike, or generally treat their co workers
horribly because they cant be fired. so i can see the appeal of moving your company
overseas or out of the contry where workers are not only going to do their job they will
do it for much less money than you pay all these lazy slobs the union pushes on people.
i hate to tell em but they did this to themselves, karma sucks and its swinging back around.

to address this particular instance, im sure there is allot that has gone with that union
behind closed doors that we will never hear about because of the confidentiality of
some of those meeting, i doubt they decided this lightly and probably only did so
as a last resort, i doubt it will work out well but what do you do when your hands are
tied and people wont listen to the fact that there is no more money to milk out of us
tax payers, not the every day tax payer anyway. unions think their wages should go
up up up all the time, it has to end somewhere.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Perhaps you have a better plan. Regardless, unions are an evil that is no longer necessary. They are damaging the economy by not allowing workforce to flux with market. It makes it to where only larger companies, with larger workforces, can actually flex efficiently enough to staff appropriately to market.

Even more, it drives the cost of sales higher, which we all see as an increase in price.

There was a time when workers in union with each other benefitted everyone. But "the union" is a beast that was, or at least should have, not meant to be.

If you want to lower crime, create a smart way to arm the citizens in a legal manner. Would you go crawling through a window looking for loot if you knew they were armed?

This is pretty close to my opinion on the matter. What is a city supposed to do when the unions run the show and they can't meet their demands, which are usually unreasonable? Sometimes you need to rid the house of the cockroaches by burning the house down and rebuilding.

These days, union-free municipalities would still have to be competitive with their compensation packages or they just aren't going to be able to attract employees, plain and simple.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Ahhhhh.....

So they bring in their own police force ?

Who do they work for then , if they aren't getting payed via taxes from the people ?

The ultimate question.

Unions can be both good and bad depending on who's running the unions and who's running the companies where employees should have unions.

Wal-Mart, Needs union for it's employees - otherwise they will continue to get trampled on by an anti American corporate entity who cares little for their workers. But many are corrupt power houses who seek to control the industry in the guise of the will of the people when they are really run by other corporate entities.

Who do you trust? If you do away with them all, the employees that need them will be left hanging. We need a different system entirely that's policed in such a way as to keep everyone honest.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Perhaps you have a better plan. Regardless, unions are an evil that is no longer necessary. They are damaging the economy by not allowing workforce to flux with market. It makes it to where only larger companies, with larger workforces, can actually flex efficiently enough to staff appropriately to market.

I worded my Op badly because I definitely didn't present the side I had intended.

I really don't think Unions have or really, ever have had any place in the Public Sector. No real exceptions to that, in a long term sort of way. Even Walker didn't just basically fire everyone and invite them to sign on...only 49% of course...to a whole new department, though.

In this case, that would seem to be precisely what they are doing. I can only figure there is some technical reason for the 51/49% division in numbers for getting the Union out like this.

That's a heck of a thing to have done to you if you're in the 51%, eh? The article even noted, and this is scary, that 51% after knowing they're soon to be getting a boot, will be on the street for the time it takes to train the new guys taking their own job. How would it feel to train your own replacement when you're being involuntarily laid off?

Isn't that just insane? I mean would you like to call 911 in Camden for the near future and have a 51%'er arrive when you need a cop with all his mind on your particular problem? Unions DO need to go from Government in all forms. The budget figures are staggering on obligations on Unions and it's so many it's just hard to find words for. Projected out to 2020 and beyond, as they do in the CBO, it's outright sickening. Thats the best word.

Just...not like this. Not as a crash program and being done, not to Teachers, but employees whose jobs directly deal with life and death decisions and people's long term futures multiple times, every shift. We fundamentally agree...but not like this.

* Added Note

Everyone, my first line up there was meant as it reads... I really did badly word my OP. Not being sarcastic. Sorry all... this one kinda went off the rails from the first post.. I'll hop back out now, but wanted to simply mention that.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Regardless, unions are an evil that is no longer necessary.

I would tend to agree.

There are so many laws on the books from worker safety to discrimination to sexual harassment, one has to wonder why billions of dollars are taken from workers and poured into these giant funds from which large portions are donated to political campaigns and millions more go to salaries of union bosses...

Is it illegal for people to form a group and approach management with their demands? Do they really need an inefficient bloated union?

While I have over the years seen unions act is terrible ways, and in some cases take stances that were beyond any form of logic, people really need to understand the history of unions, I see people here saying there are enough laws to protect people, how do you think those laws were made? Who do you think created enough pressure to make the governments act and create these laws? Do you really think that career politicians, and corporate puppets wanted these laws?

Unions have fought, and in the early years quite literally fought for those rights you actually have, those members paid in blood so you have laws that protect you, some even died for you laws, so show a little god damn respect for them please.

Do unions put undo pressure of struggling companies? Yes some do, Do some unions blackmail companies and get ridiculous concessions? yes, Sadly they sometimes do. But they are not to blame for the terrible state of the economy, it was not unions that created the bubble or burst it, it was greedy bankers and their corporate allies.

Corporations don't remove jobs overseas because of Unions, they do it because they can get legalised slave labour in other countries, Apple that makes countless billions, mostly from American consumers wont build their products in America because they can get some poor Chinese workers to work for less than 15 bucks a day, the average worker (And if this is an average worker it means some get paid less...) gets $80 dollars a week. So if these corporations came back, they would only do it when it is cheaper for them to do so, when they can make more profit, so do you all want to see American workers earning less than $100 a week for doing around 60 hours?

What is needed is a change in dynamic, a change in thinking, at the top, The priority in business is syphoning money to the stock holders, profit at all times, no matter whose lives get destroyed in the process, no matter what destruction it brings to the community.

But hey go on thinking unions are the root of all evil, I guess the most evil of unions was the Solidarity Union in Poland, you know the guys who fought and died, brought down a communist government and brought democracy and freedom to their whole country, god damn sick evil barstewards they were...

Balance is what is needed, both from the unions but also from the greedy F'ers at the top

reply to post by PrinceDreamer



Unions, way back before WWII, were a useful entity. But once the market became more competitive as globalization has occured, businesses started seeing employees as resources and began to invest in maximizing the production of that resource. Ever since that happened, unions have been a needless and costly redundancy.

Now a days unions make all manner of demands that actually drive costs and distort the market.

What makes me the angriest is that if, as an employer, you choose to not join a union you often will not be allowed to work. Union membership is a requirement of employment. I am of the opinion that the only things that employers should be doing paycheck deductions for are insurance, taxes, and garnishments by lawful order.

Camden is a very 'dark land of criminals. The Police there deserve EVERY PENNY of their pay.

In my travels from upstate NY to areas near Camden, I always wished I was driving in a TANK.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by PrinceDreamer

 

Unions, way back before WWII, were a useful entity. But once the market became more competitive as globalization has occured, businesses started seeing employees as resources and began to invest in maximizing the production of that resource. Ever since that happened, unions have been a needless and costly redundancy.

Now a days unions make all manner of demands that actually drive costs and distort the market.

What makes me the angriest is that if, as an employer, you choose to not join a union you often will not be allowed to work. Union membership is a requirement of employment. I am of the opinion that the only things that employers should be doing paycheck deductions for are insurance, taxes, and garnishments by lawful order.

My God man!
Yer head must be in a furry little place......what defence does the common man have?
They declare corporations , to be "persons"and that takes away YOUR own personal VALIDITY, but you cannot see that?
We are pigmies in a land of GIANTS......how then do we exist and prosper if we do not unite?
Are ye daft?
Truth to tell time....
It is ORGANISED CRIME< AND CORPORATE MANIPLULATION which has destroyed the unions by subverting them......
Everyone has the right or ORGANISE.......to unite with people who share similar needs, and similar problems.
We would be stupid not to!
Unions built what YOU enjoy today as gratis......(The goverment, and corporations are actively taking more all the time...as this is the principle upon which they are founded....)
The Common people are the loosers to these never ending appetites....
Unions make us STRONG!

reply to post by stirling


unions won't protect you from the evils of corporations. For that, you need to have legislators and judges.

I have never had the benefit of a union. Living in a right to work state, unions are pointless. And have never really been victimized by a company I have worked for. if my companies have wanted my talents, they had to meet me halfway. My choice to work for you is a business arrangement. Both parties have things that must be done to ensure the health of the relationship. I don't need a union eating up my pay and making demands that cause my employer to feel harshly about employing me.

Unions, if done with morality, could be a good. What they end up being is a goon squad meant to twist the arms of employers and coerce them. Instead of defending workers rights, they have taken to extorting employers.

It is obvious that this is a model that will have a day of retribution caused by it. Look at the problems with employee compensation that GM has seen lately. The unions pushed them to the point of insolvency. And now Uncle Sam is bailing them out. Thanks, Auto Workers Union.