Russia And China Join Forces And Prepare For War Against The Falling Apart U.S. Can we win this one

"It SUCKS being a citizen in an Empire"

That's what this thread is really about Americans who would like us to loose because at heart we are not happy an Empire requires obedience, An Empire's population is not widely educated because it's people must do as they are told, An Empires people are expendable as is their happiness because to serve the state is your primary duty or you would not be an empire.

Many Americans wish they could be rescued at this point, it is not a life of peace and happiness to serve an Empire, you fall into it because of promised wealth but the more you take the more the Empire grows the more it costs to maintain and soon your quality of life goes down not up.

Sadly, this battle will not take place, If we continue on and go after Iran it will still not take place for a long time to come.

We can not be defeated, no nation or combination of nations at this point in time has a hope.

We are... stuck, no rescue will come, there will be another American century when they are done.

God help us all.

We can't win a war against Russia and China, but they wouldn't win either. No one would win in such a scenario other than the civilization that followed ours, because the economy would collapse if both the largest importer (America) and exporter of goods and services (China) staged an assault against one another. And Russia's got a crap ton of oil that would be off limits to the US which would increase the downward spiral of the global economy as rationing oil made it more difficult for businesses to be profitable. That's ignoring all the damage and loss of life that would accompany this scenario if any nation got nuke happy.

You got your arses handed to you in Vietnam, if Russia and China were to join forces (God forbid), America would be learning Chinese/Russian for years to come, sheer numbers it what it boils down too.

Unless of course America, battered and beaten decides to use its nuclear arsenal, then nobody wins, every nation on Earth loses.

reply to post by woogleuk


I'm thinking we may have some top secret stealth and weapons not yet talked about. Remember anything the U.S. military shows to the public is at least 10 years old. We may not use them for a small war but an all out world war is a different story. This would be when we would be all in. Nukes hopefully would be a last resort. I would rather die by nukelear fallout along with the rest of the world, than loose a world war to China/Russia. I'm sure they feel the same.

Russians and the Chinese don't hate the American people, they think most of us are spoiled though. The Russians are trying to understand the American people, they sent young spies to learn how the New Yorker young think. Hopefully the spies gave a good report on New York life when they got sent back after being discovered. China wants to have us give them our money, they want us to be indebted to them so they can trad the money back for our land to build some cities for their people. I may be naive but I don't think anyone actually wants to destroy the planet and make it uninhabitable by nuclear war. Could be wrong though, Who knows.

From what I understand Russia and China aren't the best buds everyone on ATS thinks they are. Even if they teamed up against a US with NO help from any of its allies (unlikely), they still wouldn't get very far out of their own territorial waters before losing the majority of whatever military they brought to the party. Due to the defensive technology the US has, we probably wouldn't suffer all that many losses.

People that hype about China's military obviously don't know the sheer difference in military capability between them and the US. China's army can't do anything because they need to get them there first, they don't have magic teleporters to beam them over into the US. If China tried to boat them over, the bottom of the Pacific would be riddled with the corpses of PLA soldiers. The PLA might as well be on the moon.

Russia would be the main problem the US would have to face, China would be little more than a push over. The US could even just ignore China until they dealt with Russia. Russia's navy has the capability to cause a lot of damage to the US Navy IF they can get in missile range, but the numerous US carriers and air power trump Russian missiles. The US could simply destroy Russian ships before they get the chance to launch many of their missiles.

US subs and sonar tech are the most advanced in the world and can pretty easily empty their payload without being detected, that's anywhere from 16 to 40+ enemy subs/ships destroyed for every one US sub.

Also US military aircraft (USAF and Navy) are vastly superior than anyone elses, even old technology. Any air confrontations would be completely one-sided. In the end air superiority would win the day for the US.

The US military isn't just designed to be strong or numerous (though it is), its designed to take out opponents efficiently with minimal losses. Any other countries military fighting the US military would receive heavy losses for every ship, aircraft, tank or soldier they attempted to destroy. Fighting the US military literally means going on suicide runs and hoping for success. That's why historically, everyone goes on last ditch suicide runs when faced with the US military or they have to use some asymmetrical means to cause any minimal amount of damage.

We don't spend all this money on our "defense" budget and black projects for nothing. We spend it so nobody in their right mind would screw with us and if they do, they die.

Originally posted by woogleuk
You got your arses handed to you in Vietnam, if Russia and China were to join forces (God forbid), America would be learning Chinese/Russian for years to come, sheer numbers it what it boils down too.

Unless of course America, battered and beaten decides to use its nuclear arsenal, then nobody wins, every nation on Earth loses.

Wrong, Vietnam was a slugfest and if you check your facts you'll find out the difference in the body count.

Also, Russia has more nuclear weapons than America, but we have the capability to destroy far more of them. Maybe you should place your bias somewhere else, I don't remember America ever parading nuclear missiles down main st.

A lot of people on this thread and on ATS (Americans included) have no idea just how advanced our military is. The US military is not "just another military", its the most advanced in the world by several tiers even from just what we know. If the entire rest of the world teamed up against America in a conventional war, we would run out of ammo before we were defeated.

reply to post by BO XIAN

More people die by a slip and fall on a wet floor in a Bathroom in the U.S. in a DAY OR TWO than is the Total of U.S. K.I.A. in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There is no doubt that the U.S. Politicians miscalculated by using by Historical Numbers of Troops that would be needed to Invade and Control the population of Iraq...this was due to the VAST GAP in the U.S. Military's Lethal Abilities. There has never been an Invasion of a country done as rapidly or with as little U.S. KIA than what happened in Iraq.

The majority of U.S. deaths were caused by U.S. Troops acting as POLICE...and this is not what they are meant to do. The Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan with a few Hundred U.S. Special Forces.

If the U.S. Military was ever to fight in a NO HOLDS BARED state then the enemy death toll would be so high that even the U.S. Population would have a hard time stomaching it. I work on occasion with some of the Best of U.S. Soldiers and to say what you have said would have them LAUGHING THEIR ASSES OFF! LOL!

You have NO IDEA what the U.S. Military Capabilities are...but the RUSSIAN'S KNOW...SO DO THE CHINESE!
We defeated in the shortest time in HISTORY a Country as Large and Well Armed as Iraq. We used Military Tech. designed in the late 60's and early 70's as well as B-52's designed in 1949. The current Tech. State of the U.S. Military is so advanced that the majority of New Designed Weapons Programs are kept Secret. I was extremely surprised when the USN. decided to publicly test the Free Electron Laser...a non-nuclear version...target and acquisition system on a small boat rocking at sea. Since this is a System...and you can google...CVN-78 Gerald R. Ford use of Free Electron Laser...you will find many sites that detail this will be the first New Designed U.S. Nuclear Carrier since the Nimitz class and will be launched in 2015 along with a Re-Designed U.S. Aegis Class Cruiser that will also have a Nuclear Reactor Installed to power the FEL.

There are currently several FEL's operational on both land and sea and this is not the only Direct Energy Weapon the U.S. Military has developed as the MEB...or Microwave Emitting Beam is of an even Greater level of Secrecy and with the exception of it's existence...little is know. Russia was aware of the U.S. Nuclear Powered FEL and MEB and they went in a different direction as Russian research was committed to Particle Beam Weapons but the problem with Particle Beams is they have a Nasty Habit to not only kill the enemy but also irradiate the people that are firing it. China was recently made aware of the FEL and MEB during an Invitation of several Chinese Top Military Officers to view U.S. Naval Exercises at Norfolk as well as being given a tour of many U.S. Military Bases around the country. It was at this time that the Chinese were informed of U.S. Military Plans involving the FEL. The Chinese Admiral spoke to the World Press and stated...the U.S. has nothing to worry about as far as any danger or threat from the Chinese Military or Navy as...and HE STATED THIS...I look at our poor state of Military Training and Weapons and as I compare this to what I have seen during my visit...it is apparent that the United States Military is DECADES AHEAD OF CHINA...and China neither has the ability or is a threat to the U.S....those were basically his words and because of this release of information by the U.S...China has now decided to scale down their planned Navy as well as help with the North Korean issue as well as you do not hear talk about a Taiwan Invasion.

China is practical and has decided that it is in their best interest to be a good trading partner as well as no longer attempt to compete with the U.S. Military. Russia's current rhetoric is for the benefit of Putin as he talks of Russian Power for VOTES but he is also aware that Russia is not even close to a match Militarily to the U.S.
Split Infinity

Originally posted by woogleuk
You got your arses handed to you in Vietnam, if Russia and China were to join forces (God forbid), America would be learning Chinese/Russian for years to come, sheer numbers it what it boils down too.

Unless of course America, battered and beaten decides to use its nuclear arsenal, then nobody wins, every nation on Earth loses.

edit on 29/8/12 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)

How does one get their "asses handed to them" when the opposition never actually landed on your soil, never killed a single free citizen on your soil, did zero damage to your infra structure and not one person who wasn't a soldier was not injured?

30 years later there are Mc Donalds all over the place, people drink coca cola they import your goods not to mention that for decades afterwards the equipment your Military Industrial complex tested there is bought in droves by other 3rd and 2nd world nation?

We basically accomplished our objectives.

War for the American Empire has nothing to do with occupation in any permanent fashion, it's westernization, it's commerce, it's many things but no...occupation is not the American Doctrine for war frankly what we do has been far more successful than the British Empire which gave the people the unrest of occupation, what we do is more similar to what Alexander the Great did allowing people to culturally believe they are still free

Some people are just too thick to "get it"

reply to post by RSF77


Not only not best buds China is actively engaged in what it calls "peoples war" in Siberia not dissimilar to the Mexican notion of Reconquista via population of the south west. Currently there are as many Illegal Chinese Aliens in Siberia most likely as there are actual Russians

The enemy of my enemy applies most here, while containment of American influence in Asia is a priority the end result of a failure is nothing so terrible for either nation, China and India both need stable land based oil pipelines in order to continue modernization, sea based shipments are costly subject to attack, piracy and dangerous for the local environment an unstable mid east is a terrible thing for them.

Under US dominance those pipelines will exist

what is spoken at the UN for reasons of kissing but to vassal states is simply not the truth

Has anyone not noticed that China basically PAID for these forays for us? Where do we march? Iraq, Afghanistan and now it will be Iran, how anyone fails to notice this draws a straight line to China is beyond my senses, syria is of course the connecting point to the Mediterranean

That an oil line that spans the middle east directly between Europe and China is NO COINCIDENCE

The modern silk road is being built to connect East and West and anyone in-between that doesn't cooperate will be smashed and Russia and China may want a greater hand in this but that is the agenda either way.

It could go as far as China coming into the Mideast as peace keepers and the USA leaving in defeat, but lol 100 Million ATHEIST Chinese peace keepers will work out to be a far greater change for the region than Americans with out liberal agenda of Tolerance will be.

China, maybe we fight in that theater maybe we don't we'll see how it goes, but it's still all bs with an end goal of assuring China gets it's oil.

I see this a lot.

I find it kind of odd how people can proclaim that a nuclear war will never happen because of MAD,
yet these same people say that we should nuke whatever country if they were to invade us, and yet we have invaded many countries.

All it takes is one of these "same kind of people" calling out to nuke others, or turn another country into a sea f glass, to be in charge in another country to start it off, saying screw it, and start nuking us.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
google "nuclear arsenal USA"

lolol


any war will be fought through pawns like pakistan, korea's, isreal, iran....

or possibly with weather or economics

nobody will ever land troops on US soil

ever

it's just too expensive, as your nation gets vaporized

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Amen, there is a rail Cannon sitting in the mid east as well atm, our bombs that are conventional are as destructive as the Hiroshima blast was minus the radiation, we have reduced incoming missile capacity to a handful of properly shielded systems in Russia, in reality Russia could launch every Nuke it has and only hit a handful of cities

I stand by what I said up top

Living in an Empire SUCKS the cost of this makes life miserable, our people are dumb and obedient to keep this going, we are in a psuedo police state, the legal system is insane etc, etc et al...

That's why I said "god help us all"

Because no one is going to defeat us anytime soon.

reply to post by jacobe001


None of this is real anymore, the majority of nukes in the world are simply to old, the reason Russia is against a conventional nuclear shield is because they have designed and have handfuls very small numbers of missiles that are exceptionally well shielded and can still detonate even after EM and Microwave methods are used against them, the only way to get those missiles is to shoot them down physically so what the shield in Europe represents is the END of their nuclear arsenal because we have directed energy capacities.

Do you REALLY think we dropped from 30,000 Nukes to under 5,000 for world peace?

No this is not the case, we decommissioned those nukes because the electronics required to detonate a warhead are very fragile and unshielded they became useless as star wars gave way to the bastard children of projects like Haarp which can simply fry the electronics in the upper atmosphere and Russia has a capacity in the same arena

To nuke the US you have to sneak it in, fly it in, or fire it in short range and we have a very heavy superiority in both Sea and Air so it's useless, the Pentagon considers a few lost cities "acceptable losses" in a WW3 scenario and that's all they can get.

MAD does not exist, MAD is no longer real, you live in a SCARY world in which limited Nuclear war is acceptable because we can deliver the finishing blow, that shuttle up there they built? You bet your sweat arse there is a large EMP on board once fired and all the electronics fry we have carte blanche on ending either nation and neither has any way to hit it.

America in this scenario has check mate... at least for now as these things go

reply to post by Uneedhlp247

They are both communist countries and they both seem to hate the United States and what we stand for.

No they aren't and no they don't, well not more than most everyone else... with the exception of Israel and that is not about hate but dependency, much like the UK that has attached itself to the US tits to a point that it very hard to politically geopolitically make a distinction between the two...

reply to post by penninja

There is HOPE! That hope is the American People. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is possibly one of the most significant thing ever written. We...as Citizens of the United States have the rights as well as the ability to change our way of doing business as well as create prosperity on a massive scale...more so than any other Nation.

It is right here at our finger tips...EVERYTHING WE NEED is available to us. It is OUR RESPONSIBILITY and as outlined in our Constitution...it is our DUTY...that when a Government of The United States no longer is of the people...by the people...and for the people...it is every Americans SWORN DUTY to replace that Government or to a lesser scope...we have the ability to Run for Office and CHANGE THINGS.

The United States has been in far worse positions than we are in now. In comparison to the Great Depression or WWII or the CIVIL WAR...what we are going through now is NOTHING! EVERY TIME we have been hot water we have come out of it STRONGER!

Fortunately...because of several Quantum Leaps in Defense Tech...the U.S. will no longer have to spend such vast amounts of money and even without spending this money...our Military will very soon be on a Power Level that is 100 Times more powerful than it's current status. This will mean a complete redesign of the U.S. Military and the Politicians will Fight Tooth and Nail but it must be done. Split Infinity

reply to post by penninja


You really believe that don't you, shame.

Not just America and Russia have nukes, if the final blow came there will be people choosing side left and right, and several of those people also have extremely destructive weaponry. Even with missile shields and blah blah, radiation is still going to be scattered across the globe, and a lot of people are going to get sick.

There is no check mate, it is simply going to end badly. (should such a situation rise)

To start with, you can stop even speculating this rubbish.
The Russian People DONT want war!!
The Chinese People DONT want War!!
The American People DONT want war!!!

The "Club USA" Military Industry, DO Want War.....

So what are YOU going to do about it?

As said, The Russians and Chinese are Rivals (note: NOT enemies).

The Chinese people (govt) probably fear INDIA, MORE than the USA!!! China = 1.3billion..India = 1.3 billion.
Both are Nuclear with missiles. AND have had many border skirmishes.

Stop this talk of World Wars..talk of World Unity instead. We only Have one.

reply to post by woogleuk


I don't "believe" it I Know it, Belief is for Religion, science is Knowledge

People BELIEVE in MAD because at one time it was real, Belief like religion is a way to protect the PSYCHE so you can go about your daily life without freaking out and ending up insane.

Knowledge as in Science is Real it's math

"Other countries have Nukes"

How Many and Who? And we don't have an Eye on them? Who has them? Israel, France, Your country? those nukes are headed in the opposite direction of us my friend.

Pakistan has India to contend with, North Korea is monitored day and night and has limited ability

MAD and loosing a few cities or a high Cancer rate is not the same thing, The Pentagon like i said operates from a place of "acceptable losses" Japan survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki we would survive LA and Seattle

Fallout? They want to slow down population growth anyway, those in charge do not so much care about this factor if it gives the win. Radioactive clean up in the end will turn out to be a science like anything else, Cancer is controllable in their eyes, we live right now with an epidemic of cancer due to testing and meltdowns and life goes on and this is how (THEY) not I see it.

so your right to a small degree this would SUCK, but they don't care and.... Life sucking is Not MAD it wouldn't be the end.

What we have now is assured destruction of the enemy and assured Life sucks for a time for us, so change it to MADALSM Mutually assured destruction and life sucks for me, to these guys that's a win if it eliminates the opposition and that's what we are dealing with

I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to the actual outcome

But what MAD means to me and you is different, is this scenario MAD in my life, maybe, maybe not by location but this scenario Could mean, my dog dies of cancer, I have to abandon my home, my kid gets caught in a bio attack via terrorist strike and I loose 20 years of my life span

For me that's pretty MAD, for them sitting in bunkers, 1/2 of the US unaffected, me having one of two children still alive viable for reproduction and being able to work for another 20 years before thyroid cancer gets me... that's a WIN in their eyes if the other guy is dust

And it's reality, look 40 Million irradiated Americans is a VAST study group for cancer and Radiation treatments, never did Medicine advance as far as when there were concentration camps. Realistically by the time it's done 10 years later both Cancer and radiation wont be very scary anymore

Every general reads nietzsche, that's how a lot of these guys think, That which does not kill you makes you stronger

Do I WANT THAT...hell no

None the less it's a win if it goes that route, your from the UK, decades and decades of talk about the resolve of the British after WW2 huh? For many it was MAD but not for the Nation as a whole. So no, the War scenario isn't MAD for the US anymore

reply to post by gort51


Your in the ww3 forum..what did you expect
And to Penninja...ahem..the USA has already been defeated..and not one bomb was dropped

Originally posted by penninja

MAD and loosing a few cities or a high Cancer rate is not the same thing, The Pentagon like i said operates from a place of "acceptable losses" Japan survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki we would survive LA and Seattle

There is a big difference between todays bombs/missiles and those dropped on Japan, yield for a start.

I think Gort51 above said it the best.

reply to post by woogleuk


Look you don't have to argue with me on the realities of how bad even what THEY call a win would be for the rest of us ordinary people, I'm right with you, sure the Missile that manages to get through and hit LA wont just fire bomb the central city like Hiroshima, the blast radius will extend all the way past The Nuke plant, melt that down too and the Fall Out will make Fukushima seem like standing too close to the Microwave for a minute.

They don't care

They care that they have enough defenses around Denver so that that city doesn't get hit too and there are 100,000 people 30 miles out under the Airport that wont be affected at all, enough Iodine stocked up and the myriad of other methods that keep HALF the city alive from fallout

IF Denver, San Antonio, Pittsburgh, Charleston and Boise Survive Intact along with a bunch or Random small towns and they have 2 million people bunker-ed and the total population of the USA id reduced to 90 Million from 300 Million 3 years after it's done... That's the economic strength and population of Modern japan so long as enough of the military is intact, they call that WIN if China and Russia are back to the stone age entirely

Sad but true

So you don't have to tell me the strength of the bombs or anything else, they don't give a crup if we have a 2/3rd reduction in population if Russia has a 95% reduction in population and we are left with a standing military force and they are not, the extinction of a few hundred species isn't on their "to be avoided list" either

Not being MAD to them means they feel technology would reach a point where cancer can be controlled, where Radiation can be cleaned over an acceptable amount of time...decades and even 10% of the population can rebuild

They think, we can do a lot better than that and that's probably true...likely we have the ability to wax an entire nation with a single shot while eliminating 90% of incoming missiles at Nato targets to them that's paradise as survival goes.

From the POV of a guy in a bunker playing war games with real human lives that's fantastic, we'd be back at current population in 100 years or less with whole continents to exploit

Riddle me this, if the US bread basket is unusable for a decade what happens to Africa and the ME? 70% reduction in population, 90%? 98% once you factor in disease, warfare and all the other horses of the Apocalypse?

20 Million health citizens can rule that world... so they don't care dude, for them MAD is obsolete and that means we are in deep.... stuff