The Death Throes of Authoritarianism? Or True Enlightenment Preparation?

reply to post by NorEaster


I have been what others have called a "Seeker" and as of recently been on a journey of self discovery instead of what I have spent most of my life searching for outside of me.

I have learned in thanks to the Internet how to better myself and how to grow in so many different ways. I have found avenues of knowledge that before would have cost a University education open to me. I have found I am handier then I ever believed because I can find a video on someone else doing what I need to do! I feel empowered that I can grow vegetables and cook in ways I never thought I could! I have re-discovered my soul and am learning about my spirit again in a fresh new way than the old dogma I grew up with and is running this country into the ground…

Now for the confusing part I have been learning that I am not important…I am not to love who I am but become one with the source? That my ego has to die…ok well I admit some of it needs to be toned down but die? Why would I sacrifice what I am, what I am becoming? Is enlightenment meaning we are all one? I like my individuality and I admit I want to make it better but give it up completely? I feel like I am just at the start of making myself a better person…

That is what I have been getting lately…

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I have been what others have called a "Seeker" and as of recently been on a journey of self discovery instead of what I have spent most of my life searching for outside of me.

I have learned in thanks to the Internet how to better myself and how to grow in so many different ways. I have found avenues of knowledge that before would have cost a University education open to me. I have found I am handier then I ever believed because I can find a video on someone else doing what I need to do! I feel empowered that I can grow vegetables and cook in ways I never thought I could! I have re-discovered my soul and am learning about my spirit again in a fresh new way than the old dogma I grew up with and is running this country into the ground…

Now for the confusing part I have been learning that I am not important…I am not to love who I am but become one with the source? That my ego has to die…ok well I admit some of it needs to be toned down but die? Why would I sacrifice what I am, what I am becoming? Is enlightenment meaning we are all one? I like my individuality and I admit I want to make it better but give it up completely? I feel like I am just at the start of making myself a better person…

That is what I have been getting lately…

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

There will still be a YOU, you just won't be perceived as by yourself anymore. The knowledge that you hold solely now, will be added to the whole like an ingredient of a recipe. For now we are all sugar, flour, ginger etc..but afterward! We'll be cake!! Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

reply to post by BlueMule


Dude, I have to admit that I did not wade through the entire thread, and that nothing in my previous post was directed toward you specifically.

But addressing your views now as you lay them out above, I gotta say that you do seem to play fast and loose with your psychobabble while describing what sounds like a fairly common altered state. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Observer never departs from its throne, even in the deepest throes of TM induced stupor.

One can perceive the webs of relationships that sustain us all, from the subatomic to the galactic scale, one can see the links that tie us chemically to the stars and genetically to one another. I feel that my capacity to recognize myself as an autonomous being also endows me with the ability to understand and love the endless variability of creation. So, bully for individuated consciousness, as without it, one would have no hope of grasping this staggering cosmic unity at all.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
Now, I don't buy the whole shebang he lays out, but I do think it plausible that our immediate forbears possessed brains that were physically very different from ours.

It depends what you mean by 'physically'? From external appearances, they would have been no different, but certainly in terms of neural pathways, possibly. Nature, in physiological terms, offers few variables, but, nurture, definately. So, what we are looking at really, and what Jayne seems to be proposing, is that the way in which we perceive our environment is very different, and indeed, how we percieve occurences and changes within that environment, not to mention the nature of environment and the scale there of which we are expected to interprete. And, we know this already, Jayne is not making any radical comments. The Romans believed that the birds could provide prophectic information, which, to an extent they can. If one knows what to look for. We now look to different messengers, our ability to read other messengers has been forgotten, if not surpassed. We don't consider birds or animals representatives of the gods anymore, and therefore do not record our interactions with them as such, as our forebears, including Herodotus did. Times, they are constantly, a changin'.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
Jaynes takes it to a groovy place, and this is where it actually starts to bear on the topic of your thread. He posits that individual consciousness, our sense of "I", is a very recent development. That prior to the shift in our neural architecture, we were more, well, "we"-ish.

Again, this depends very much on where and what you look at. Give smaller social groups, especially those with a common familial bond, 'we-ness' is a fairly simple matter, but that has to be taken into the context of our instinctive xenophobia. Not to mention our prior lack of longevity. Individuality is and has been as essential to our survival as the group, at times. Hence our mythology which certainly in the dominant Roman-Greco culture emphasises the individuals ability to survive, from birth, without nurture. A human newborn is capable of finding it's own way to the nipple unaided for good reason, and as any woman who has given birth naturally knows, that instinctive 'push' transcends our sentient physical reserves. It is bipedalism, not bottlenecks, that necessitate these adaptations.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
Those who argue for the abandonment of the Ego should note here that we may have had precisely the kind of oneness that they advocate, and evolved into something else. Maybe we developed consciousness because the old arrangement served us poorly in a bottleneck sitch, and so It seems to me that our freshly fledged capacity for individuation is a boon.

The awareness of 'oneness' is about much more than the human condition and the abandonment of ego much more about the understanding of our insignificance in that unity of existence. Humanity is a very, very, very small aspect of that, but it is the one, on this earth that is capable of realising that. Or rather of intellectualising and communicating that. It has nothing to do with the hive mind, quite the opposite. Individualisation, when one considers the animal kingdom, is by no means unique. Nor is following the herd. The ability to over-ride the desire to follow, the herd, the call of our reproductive system, is what differentiates us. Choice. The Free Spirit.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
One can perceive the webs of relationships that sustain us all, from the subatomic to the galactic scale, one can see the links that tie us chemically to the stars and genetically to one another. I feel that my capacity to recognize myself as an autonomous being also endows me with the ability to understand and love the endless variability of creation. So, bully for individuated consciousness, as without it, one would have no hope of grasping this staggering cosmic unity at all.

Precisely. But we understand this how? And while we understand it, do we comprehend it? And if we comprehend it, do we feel it?

The relationships that human intellectual exploration has discovered for us, and explained so that we can understand those concepts and descriptions are not the same as 'knowing'. We only know because we have been told it is so. I personally believe that the purpose of most life on Earth and possibly in the entire universe is to rearrange matter, we as humans, have fine tuned this to the molecular level, and it is this that has permitted our successful domination. However, taking something apart to see how it works, does not necessarily mean that we possess the ability to create something the same. We only know what it is made of, not what made it.

I am with you in terms of the abandonment of ego. But, that does not preclude the fact that certain states of consciousness can improve our ability to percieve otherwise imperceptible quantities and qualities.

Originally posted by Eidolon23
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Dude, I have to admit that I did not wade through the entire thread, and that nothing in my previous post was directed toward you specifically.

But addressing your views now as you lay them out above, I gotta say that you do seem to play fast and loose with your psychobabble while describing what sounds like a fairly common altered state.

Sorry if I seem that way. I'll work on it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Observer never departs from its throne, even in the deepest throes of TM induced stupor.

I wouldn't know...I don't practice TM and 'stupor' isn't a useful term. :p

One can perceive the webs of relationships that sustain us all, from the subatomic to the galactic scale, one can see the links that tie us chemically to the stars and genetically to one another.

Even the acausal webs?

I feel that my capacity to recognize myself as an autonomous being also endows me with the ability to understand and love the endless variability of creation. So, bully for individuated consciousness, as without it, one would have no hope of grasping this staggering cosmic unity at all.

Yes indeed bully for it! Wouldn't have it any other way. It takes both to make the world go round.

Originally posted by GreenEyedGemini

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I have been what others have called a "Seeker" and as of recently been on a journey of self discovery instead of what I have spent most of my life searching for outside of me.

I have learned in thanks to the Internet how to better myself and how to grow in so many different ways. I have found avenues of knowledge that before would have cost a University education open to me. I have found I am handier then I ever believed because I can find a video on someone else doing what I need to do! I feel empowered that I can grow vegetables and cook in ways I never thought I could! I have re-discovered my soul and am learning about my spirit again in a fresh new way than the old dogma I grew up with and is running this country into the ground…

Now for the confusing part I have been learning that I am not important…I am not to love who I am but become one with the source? That my ego has to die…ok well I admit some of it needs to be toned down but die? Why would I sacrifice what I am, what I am becoming? Is enlightenment meaning we are all one? I like my individuality and I admit I want to make it better but give it up completely? I feel like I am just at the start of making myself a better person…

That is what I have been getting lately…

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

There will still be a YOU, you just won't be perceived as by yourself anymore. The knowledge that you hold solely now, will be added to the whole like an ingredient of a recipe. For now we are all sugar, flour, ginger etc..but afterward! We'll be cake!! Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

But I don't want to be Cake and it sounds like BORG cake added to the collective.

I kinda like me and what I am becoming and the personal growth.

reply to post by Biliverdin


I find your utter lack of Sapphic tendencies saddening at times. Nice work up there. ^

reply to post by BlueMule


Yeah, I don't know, BlueMule. I got snarky with that TM stupor dig, and I'm sorry about that. I just feel frustrated around the subject, and from the prevalence of the rather mean-spirited term "Namaste crowd", I guess this subject just predisposes folks toward incivility.

Touching on the perjorative term "Namaste crowd", I'd like to point out that the translation for the word could be applied to the central paradox of the thread:

"The divine in me sees the divine in you."

reply to post by Eidolon23


If the Divine in you doesn't want to wake up to itself, so be it. Carry on! I wouldn't want everyone to wake up! Then who would God play hide-and-seek with?

Originally posted by Eidolon23
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

I find your utter lack of Sapphic tendencies saddening at times. Nice work up there. ^

Believe me...it is a great disappointment to me too. Those who say such things are a choice have no idea what they are talking about.

Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by GreenEyedGemini

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I have been what others have called a "Seeker" and as of recently been on a journey of self discovery instead of what I have spent most of my life searching for outside of me.

I have learned in thanks to the Internet how to better myself and how to grow in so many different ways. I have found avenues of knowledge that before would have cost a University education open to me. I have found I am handier then I ever believed because I can find a video on someone else doing what I need to do! I feel empowered that I can grow vegetables and cook in ways I never thought I could! I have re-discovered my soul and am learning about my spirit again in a fresh new way than the old dogma I grew up with and is running this country into the ground…

Now for the confusing part I have been learning that I am not important…I am not to love who I am but become one with the source? That my ego has to die…ok well I admit some of it needs to be toned down but die? Why would I sacrifice what I am, what I am becoming? Is enlightenment meaning we are all one? I like my individuality and I admit I want to make it better but give it up completely? I feel like I am just at the start of making myself a better person…

That is what I have been getting lately…

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

There will still be a YOU, you just won't be perceived as by yourself anymore. The knowledge that you hold solely now, will be added to the whole like an ingredient of a recipe. For now we are all sugar, flour, ginger etc..but afterward! We'll be cake!! Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

But I don't want to be Cake and it sounds like BORG cake added to the collective.

I kinda like me and what I am becoming and the personal growth.

I understand what you are saying. There are so many wonderful qualities within all of us. No one wants to think of that being lost, but it won't be. It's hard to sometimes see the picture when too many of the puzzle pieces are still missing. You won't be borged exactly. You will be able to access everyone else and they will be able to access you. Just like webpages on the internet. ATS still maintains it's qualities while still being a part of a much bigger whole...the internet community. It does not lose it's individuality just because it's included and neither will you.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

If the Divine in you doesn't want to wake up to itself, so be it. Carry on! I wouldn't want everyone to wake up! Then who would God play hide-and-seek with?

edit on 29-8-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

This is just a sick joke, not funny at all. Although, I suppose you are being serious, which is the sick part. First you are contending that not everyone is as 'awake' to a higher quality of life as you are, which you have designated to be labeled as the "Divine". Essentially you saying you are more alive then them. This is no less smug or exclusive then the elitist who feels that because he can spend a million dollars on dinner he is somehow more 'alive' or worthy then others.

Second, you attempt to reinforce this smugness by acting as spokesperson for 'God', the creator of all, and claim he/she/it is playing a "hide-and-seek" game with humans and you are part of the privileged few who have found him/her/it. How does the 'oneness' crowd reconcile this exclusive ego-gone-wild-ness?

reply to post by NorEaster

Nice rant. But hey everybody wants to be different and an individual, just like everybody else. Were so like snowflakes, totally original one of a kind, nobody know just what pattern they may take. Unless offcourse you have counted and categorized every type of snowflake out there, if so - then that's cheating and does not count.

Here is a great site to help you understand your oneness
snowcrystals
If you notice on the bottom of that site they even show the awesomeness of man made snowflakes, though there not quite on par with nature. What can I say, It's a work in progress.

May the oneness be with you.

reply to post by TheJourney

I do not think the human mind is capable of thinking in any sort of non duality way. It would be like a computer language that can only operate using a 1 and no 0, as you can see it just would not work, just like you can not think of a positive in nature without there being a negative, even in atoms, protons and neutrons and even if you want to go smaller then that its all based on duality its all binary a complex sort of binary, but still if one exists its negative is bound to as well.

For something to exist it only exists in comparison to something, by definition existence is merely just comparisons and interpretations of what a thing is in this jumble of other things in life, its individuality is just its peculiarities and most especially its differences form other. Everybody expresses themselves based on others views and there perspectives of things, even on there perspectives of what others think. Even the neurons in your brain are just constantly comparing stimuli among themselves. The whole way thought is processed is by duality, only that duality is divided further into other duality's and categorized.

The brain is not capable of anything outside that paradigm, only the mind is capable of grasping such a concept as non-duality and then only in comparison to the greater scheme of things, ie its just part of something else a whole. But on a minute scale, even the act of looking for something creates a duality to it. It ain't so much does non-duality exist? Because it does, it's more along the lines of does it matter? And does it matter especially to your everyday life and person? And the answer to that is NO, as they exist on a whole different paradigm and wavelength they are just the minute categorizations of a more complex entity.

Can anybody even think of one thing that is non-dual in nature? Some may get a glimpse of it, but in all it would be like a chimp getting a glimpse of a mathematical equation on a piece of paper. It not only would not be understood, but It simply would not matter to the chimp, just like non-duality does not matter to humans. But that by a long stretch does not mean it does not exist.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by TheJourney

 

I do not think the human mind is capable of thinking in any sort of non duality way. It would be like a computer language that can only operate using a 1 and no 0, as you can see it just would not work, just like you can not think of a positive in nature without there being a negative, even in atoms, protons and neutrons and even if you want to go smaller then that its all based on duality its all binary a complex sort of binary, but still if one exists its negative is bound to as well.

One has to make the leap from Aristotelian logic to quantum logic. Then you can operate with 0, 1, and qubit. It helps when your mind has been blown by crazy-#.

Originally posted by openlocks

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

If the Divine in you doesn't want to wake up to itself, so be it. Carry on! I wouldn't want everyone to wake up! Then who would God play hide-and-seek with?

edit on 29-8-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

This is just a sick joke, not funny at all. Although, I suppose you are being serious, which is the sick part. First you are contending that not everyone is as 'awake' to a higher quality of life as you are, which you have designated to be labeled as the "Divine". Essentially you saying you are more alive then them. This is no less smug or exclusive then the elitist who feels that because he can spend a million dollars on dinner he is somehow more 'alive' or worthy then others.

How dare that smug Buddha imply that we are asleep and he is awake! What arrogance!

Second, you attempt to reinforce this smugness by acting as spokesperson for 'God', the creator of all, and claim he/she/it is playing a "hide-and-seek" game with humans and you are part of the privileged few who have found him/her/it. How does the 'oneness' crowd reconcile this exclusive ego-gone-wild-ness?

The ego that the 'oneness' crowd talks about is not the same ego that feels smug from being part of the priviliged few. The ego-self is more than merely that which feels smug or cocky or arrogant.

Besides, it's not like "I" found God. Who is "I"?

You guys just aren't getting it. But hey that's cool. Words never were enough...if you want to get it you have to go past words. But you guys don't go past words. You play nit-pick in them until you feel all nice and warm in your paradigm.

Its not like you have to wake up. Stay asleep, if that's what you want! I'm not trying to make everyone wake up, nor trying to make everyone stay asleep. It takes all kinds! Live and let live!

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

reply to post by abeverage


In my opinion we should NOT strive to lower the standards of self in any way, shape or form. We are to strive to flow with the order of nature with all of nature, including yourself and others. There is balance to be had, but the main theme is to remember.

When you awaken in the morning what is the firt thought? For me, it is " oh ok, here I am again, let's do this".

I remember. I remember where I am, WHO I am and what I am to do.

The above sentence is what I deem an awakening, only I spirit and not material.

Below is something I wrote on another thread here, please read this and tell me your thoughts.

At the end of our days on earth, it is my opinion to let go of matter. We need to NOT be attached to any matter, that's what's important because thats what got us into this mess in the first place!!

" I see the Universe filled with matter, energy, light, and so on. I see it as alive just as I see the Earth and the other planets alive. They, we, are all made up of the same things.

We, like the Universe are a reflection of light that is expressing itself in many ways.

The Universe seems to be an expanding expression. Literature of all kinds teach me about expression and how the living matter, not yet expounded on the non living matter, expresses it self.

All objects emit electromagnetic radiation as well.

Matter, then could also be said to be an expression of thought!

We see matter can blink in and out of existence. The nature ( key word nature) of matter is to express... To come in and out of self expressing that which it/we think.

Once the thought comes in, Our voices send off harmonic waves of the highest light forms and each vibration then manifests in the material world.

The laws that govern are governed for the good of nature whether it's seen in us, another living creature, plant, atom, Universe, and so on.

The human can be said to be of mind, body and soul. We are half material and half light, expressing in many ways.

The only " right" way of expression is our perception of how the order of nature should be.

We are matter that's a transferable energy with each expression we give to the seen world, and to the unseen world because the Universal law here is cause and effect.

For the religious Christain person it can be viewed from the Bible that creation began, before man. God was said to be void, then a thought aroused within, he spoke,he moved, and this flow continues today. God is then seen to be expressing himself through matter and or creation of the very first expression.

The Bible then becomes stories ( expressions) of mankind and the struggles man has undergone since the beginning of.... Man.

When the term was used, " I am", it was an expression.

" I am" , The First Adam ( atom) (Jesus, joshua, what ever entity you associate him with) ... He was asked to name objects as an expression....

" Name it" you are, I am, we are...... An expression.

I'm sitting outside on my deck, typing this. I see my deck is worn out and needs to be sealed. To me, it's a way of expression through the worn out wood that it needs to be tended to. My tomatoe plants are expressing them self with the blooms, and now comes the fruitation. I see it, in all it's glory and cannot wait to taste it! When I look at the tomatoe plant though, it is expressing something to me. It's an expression all on its own, but with me being the owner/ observer I can take commune with it and know that I too see the expression it's sending.

It's going to be tasty! Right?

With that said though.... There are probabilities. It could rain, I could water it, I could water it too much, I could neglect it, it could become dis eased and so on. Even though I KNOW the nature of the plant, there are possible outcomes and many factors are at play.

What I do with the expression/ expressions indeed matters.

reply to post by abeverage


Expressions tend to inspire as well, hence the spiritual, philosophical ideas, science and so on.

Music soothes my soul. The expressions from the artists are like that of a beautiful painting only the sound resonates with my entire being unlike anything else.

Reading is too an inspiration and a way of expression that keeps me learning each and every second.

It's just the nature of all that is and ever will be, in my opinion. If we can see it, it can be an expression, that ultimately inspires the spirit IF it is good with the nature.

The balance is what I'm seeing is off not only with this planet but every Living thing!

The balance of the splitting of not only the atom ( man and woman) but of the light and dark. Darkness is said not able to overcome the light and we see this in science. Photons cannot be trapped, as they are free!

The tipping point is where I see us all at the present time, as it appears when the light divided from the darkness in creation it's not only been expressed in tons of literature in different manners, but it's telling a story of humanity and the nature of all things and of the different possibilities.

The story will have an end.....

Originally posted by GreenEyedGemini

Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by GreenEyedGemini

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I have been what others have called a "Seeker" and as of recently been on a journey of self discovery instead of what I have spent most of my life searching for outside of me.

I have learned in thanks to the Internet how to better myself and how to grow in so many different ways. I have found avenues of knowledge that before would have cost a University education open to me. I have found I am handier then I ever believed because I can find a video on someone else doing what I need to do! I feel empowered that I can grow vegetables and cook in ways I never thought I could! I have re-discovered my soul and am learning about my spirit again in a fresh new way than the old dogma I grew up with and is running this country into the ground…

Now for the confusing part I have been learning that I am not important…I am not to love who I am but become one with the source? That my ego has to die…ok well I admit some of it needs to be toned down but die? Why would I sacrifice what I am, what I am becoming? Is enlightenment meaning we are all one? I like my individuality and I admit I want to make it better but give it up completely? I feel like I am just at the start of making myself a better person…

That is what I have been getting lately…

If ascension means being part of yet another collective but with less individualism how is this any different than the materialistic, capitalistic drones most of us already are? Have I dropped out of a cloud or am I getting what you mean?

There will still be a YOU, you just won't be perceived as by yourself anymore. The knowledge that you hold solely now, will be added to the whole like an ingredient of a recipe. For now we are all sugar, flour, ginger etc..but afterward! We'll be cake!! Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

But I don't want to be Cake and it sounds like BORG cake added to the collective.

I kinda like me and what I am becoming and the personal growth.

I understand what you are saying. There are so many wonderful qualities within all of us. No one wants to think of that being lost, but it won't be. It's hard to sometimes see the picture when too many of the puzzle pieces are still missing. You won't be borged exactly. You will be able to access everyone else and they will be able to access you. Just like webpages on the internet. ATS still maintains it's qualities while still being a part of a much bigger whole...the internet community. It does not lose it's individuality just because it's included and neither will you.

Next you will be telling me if I choose not to be part of this that "Resistance if Futile..."

reply to post by BlueMule

How dare that smug Buddha imply that we are asleep and he is awake! What arrogance!

Well, this clearly shows yo have never read any of the suttas or studied much about the Buddha. He is thought to have said, "All beings are awake" upon his enlightenment though and no where does he say others are asleep while he is awake. Nice 'eyeroll' though, snarky arrogance is sure a big part of you new agers crowd. Now I am seeing what NorEaster was saying.

You guys just aren't getting it. But hey that's cool. Words never were enough...if you want to get it you have to go past words. But you guys don't go past words. You play nit-pick in them until you feel all nice and warm in your paradigm.

LOL, I think we are saying you don't get it. "words were never enough...blah...blah....blah". Quit the nonsense. I know exactly what you are saying. I've had all sorts of samadhi's and other "spiritual" experiences. I am friends with many monks and "spiritually enlightened" folks. I am not "nit-picking" your words either, I am merely repeating what you are saying in a more sincere light. You have distorted spirituality to fit you egoic desires of being more special than others. Many people do, it okay, but it is in your benefit to admit to it and inquire into the causes.

Its not like you have to wake up. Stay asleep, if that's what you want! I'm not trying to make everyone wake up, nor trying to make everyone stay asleep. It takes all kinds! Live and let live!

Exactly my point, thanks for re-emphasizing! Wait, why didn't you use 'God' as a means to boost authority this time?

Have fun playing in the sandbox!