Adam and Eve vs. Evolution

please delete me !!!

[edit on 10/13/2004 by bet555]

oooooppppsss and me ... tHANKS ..

[edit on 10/13/2004 by bet555]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Listen, this isn't a topic about creationism vs. evolutionism, it is a topic about what could be the reason behind things

Let say for example, you are living back in the olden days, a LONG time ago, when the story of Adam and Eve was first told. Well, lets come to better terms with the human back then. The human back then was pretty dumb in accordance to biology right? How about completely retarded when it came to biology. Hell, they even thought Heaven was in space... So, do you honestly think God would tell someone so completely out of it that we came from Ameobas? What response do you think the person would have. What the hell is an Ameoba? Its a single-celled organism. Well what is an organism, and what is a cell? You see, i think im coming to terms with how God planned things... I think he told us some of the story of Earth, but not all of it. I think he told us some of Man kinds story, but not all of it. I believe that Noah, may have happened, but to a much smaller scale. You see, you wouldn't need to wipe out the entire world just to get rid of the sinners. I dont know this is just my take on the whole thing!

OR THE WHOLE WORLD COULD HAVE BEEN LET'S SAY ..... MADAGASCAR ///// It didn't have to be that big ... Think about it Columbus sailed the Acean Blue in 1842 lol ... PEace .. I have alot of other posts concerning this exact post ... so look em up or I will bring em here if you woudl like ...

What if ... ... I know you get alot of these , "What if's" , but try this one out ...

What if we were placed here on earth by some other civilization that is just like us and they were watching over us the whoel time we were here. Starting with Adam and Eve ...

They may have put some kind of implant into our skulls taking the ability for us to reach back into our heads and use certain parts of our brain. The reason that they did this is so that they could monitor us and we would not be able to use our other "Planes" of existence to go to otherwise this would not conclude what they want to find out.

The question they are trying to find out ... this is the interesting part.

Why would someone take thier own species and put them somewhere on a forgotten planet in a solar system billions of light years away from the nearest civilized galaxy or in some kind of a worm hole maybe. Or if you want a better figure for your imagination. Imagine we were in a box ... 100 billion light years x 100 billion light years x 100 billion light years. This box is made us of Mirrors and every time our scientist look into space they are just looking back and forth into a mirror for eternity so it seems that the universe is endless to the EYE. Although, really it is just we are blocked off of seeing any more then what they allow.

Back to the question, Why would they put us thier neices and nephews on a planet by themselves billions of miles away from anything without the knowledge or anything to get off of this god forsaken planet.

Well the ANSWER IS ... they wanted to know how they truly got here. And the history of thier race they have found out everythign ele about life how to live life longer everything. All they do not know is the same questions we are asking. Where did we come from ?

The reason that they set up this controlled world for us is because if we were to advance to fast we would ruin everything that has happend over time. Over what now 2005 years of research. So to keep us on track finding out exactly where they came from and How they advanced spiritually , physically, and mentally.

but mostly mentally. ...

this could be one story or there could be many man more ... other options ... There are really many many different ways that this could pan out and untilll we figure it out we will never know. So ... Continue learning .. DEUS !!!

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by St Udio
then by insinuation, implication, extrapolation...we could very well
contend the ancient peoples that cultivated the first known civilisations were not collectively, dullards & brutish, unsophisticated louts.

Quite true. We can also assume this of people everywhere at the various times the books of the Bible were written.

We could assume their cultures and philosophies were different than the accepted, cultural, 'norm' of today!?

Again, true... and the same was ALSO true of those who wrote the Bible. For instance, I'm sure you probably ate pork during your lifetime or ate pork products, and you probably ate shellfish and lobster and crab. I would bet that you're wearing a blended fiber clothing and that your hair is not trimmed Biblically... and so on and so forth.

And I would have bet that you haven't made your required sacrifices and your ministers haven't either. All that would be anathema to the people who wrote the Old Testament. The gods know what the New Testament people would have thought of it, but it's a safe bet that some of our modern views would have completely scandalized them.

There science was what we today call pseudo-science
(all those astrologers, soothsayers, visionaries, alchemists, etc etc) which the YHWH had to destroy/disperse...to fashion the new, Patriarchial dynasties that continue ....

Now THERE you're making some bad assumptions. I'm afraid that the Jews were never that progressive in science and as others pointed out, the Greeks were light years ahead in REAL science and mathematics.

Medicine in the Bible tended to be along the lines of "get a bird, kill it, and smear some of the blood on the affected area and burn it to ashes." This was the medicine of roaming tribal groups and not a sophisticated medicine of a settled people with schools and universities.

The Egyptians were far ahead of the Jews in medicine. The old papyrii do have information on simple brain surgery as well as medications for a lot of ailments. They (and the Babylonians and so forth) had good information on the movement of the planets and stars, and so forth.

There's no real advantage to a Patriarchial dynasty.

[edit on 13-10-2004 by Byrd]

Appreciate the critique and the amplifications there Byrd

the 'WOOAH there!!' picture is delightful also.

the remark: Their science was what we today call pseudo-science ...

was actually meaning the Babaylonian/Sumerian/Chaldeans as a culture
and social order which was mostly geared to the astrologers, psychics, seers, mystics, 'new agers' of their time...occultists par excellance.

and the YAHWIST Isrealites, being mostly nomads began the oral tradition that their god YHWH had to destroy the High Places of occult understanding and scatter the peoples of Babylon...'overthrow their empire' because they desired to 'become as gods'

Indeed there was advanced thought & natural science and technologies developed in ancient days... but not for the same reasons we make high tech gadgets today (laborsaving, profit, expediency, so on) the science & technology back then was centered around the religions, occultisms, the spiritual & esoteric needs of the rulers & society.

nearest general example: Incas & Aztec cultures with the religious-ritualistic central theme

actually theres too much to cover, here
enjoyed the input....
good night

All these posts are great, but you are leaing out one theory. God is a mere creation of the human, developed to explain what(even though some were quite smart) ancient man couldn't explain. Yes the Sumerians, Greeks, and Egyptians were very smart, but there was much they didn't understand. Things like the sun and the rain. They couldn't explain what today are simple natural phenomenon. For these reasons they created gods for all they couldn't explain, thats why many ancient cultures have a god of the sun, of the rain or harvest. They needed these gods to give themselves answers to the unexplainable. These gods with time and change became the monotheism of many current religions.

I believe more in the evolution theory. It seems to work out becase we have found remains of prehistoric man then all the way up to where we are now.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
All these posts are great, but you are leaing out one theory. God is a mere creation of the human, developed to explain what(even though some were quite smart) ancient man couldn't explain. Yes the Sumerians, Greeks, and Egyptians were very smart, but there was much they didn't understand. Things like the sun and the rain. They couldn't explain what today are simple natural phenomenon. For these reasons they created gods for all they couldn't explain, thats why many ancient cultures have a god of the sun, of the rain or harvest. They needed these gods to give themselves answers to the unexplainable. These gods with time and change became the monotheism of many current religions.

I believe more in the evolution theory. It seems to work out becase we have found remains of prehistoric man then all the way up to where we are now.

I see your point ... but ... I think that those gods were just took for misunderstanding ... Just like the true one god . Becaue believe me ... I am the most reallist person that you haev ever met in your life .. NOt sure if it is b/c of the pot or what but anyhow ... I am real I do not jump to conclusions I am open minded to the extreme ... I have the prove it wrong look on life .. if you can;t prove it wrong then why is it wrong. Gravity doesn't make things go down ... I thought one time ... then I went outside and started throwing rocks up in the air ... THEY ALL CAME DOWN ... But was it gravity or was it my own mind that mde them come down ..

I never said I was the one who had the convincing scientific argument, just that I've heard them. For me it's a toss-up since I can see how it could work either way. The basics of Creationism included life being interdependent to a large degree and had to initially begin as such. The interesting part is how God created everything since it is apparent by scientific laws and observations that he works through what we consider nature. Essentially studying the order of the universe instead of how the 'cosmic accidents' may occur. It's another way of looking at things is all. Both Creationism and Evolution require a degree of faith since neither is scientifically substantiated. I'm sure you're going to say I'm ignorant for not seeing how perfectly factual evolution is, but that's my conclusion from my studies/labs in genetics.

Originally posted by saint4God
I never said I was the one who had the convincing scientific argument, just that I've heard them.

Do you remember anything about any of the convincing arguements? Even who made them?

For me it's a toss-up since I can see how it could work either way. The basics of Creationism included life being interdependent to a large degree and had to initially begin as such. The interesting part is how God created everything since it is apparent by scientific laws and observations that he works through what we consider nature. Essentially studying the order of the universe instead of how the 'cosmic accidents' may occur. It's another way of looking at things is all.
Sure, if you consider the universe as being created by god, then you could consider things that happen as being done by his will.

Both Creationism and Evolution require a degree of faith since neither is scientifically substantiated.

This is infact entirely untrue. While creationism has no scientific basis, evolution certainly does. Are you unaware of the evidence for evolution, or have you heard the evidence and refuted it?

but that's my conclusion from my studies/labs in genetics.

Ah, so it was a conclusion reached in the laboratory. How did you come about this conclusion then? I am very curious to hear.

if we take adam and eve literally, how long ago does the bible state it happened ?

because with normal population growth, it would take a loooooooooooooooooooooong time for 2 people to lead to billions.......

Originally posted by radagast
if we take adam and eve literally, how long ago does the bible state it happened ?

because with normal population growth, it would take a loooooooooooooooooooooong time for 2 people to lead to billions.......

I think most Christians would agree that Adam & Eve were the first, but not the only humans created. If God follows the rules of nature, then there would have to be at least enough people to have a successful gene pool. Otherwise would require intervention.

Nygdan, didn't we already argue this on another thread? I'll leave my notes as is and am still awaiting your scientific facts.

Originally posted by saint4God
I think most Christians would agree that Adam & Eve were the first, but not the only humans created.

I have never met anyone that beleived god created an entire population of people. This is not a standard amoung christians, at least as far as I know. Why were these people also affected by the fall if they didn't disobey god?

Nygdan, didn't we already argue this on another thread? I'll leave my notes as is and am still awaiting your scientific facts.

Lets see, in this thread you said that you don't beleive in evolution because it doens't have any facts to support it and you should know because you studied it for 8 years, but then you didn't present anything to support the contention that it doesn't occur and ignored my arguements for it occuring, then when I asked where you studied it or how you studied it for eight years you dropped out, saying it had become 'credentials slapping', which was strange because only you brought up anything about it. And now you're doing something similiar here, talking about when you did 'work in the genetics lab' and evading any questions relevant to it.

If don't want it to be a 'credentials slapping' contest, then stop trying to whip yours out.

Now I have made a case in the previous thread, and brought up issues in this one, but you are completely avoiding them. What, specifically, do you want 'facts' on? I thought you studied evolution for eight years, in a genetics lab nonetheless. Do you want to go over only genetic evidence for evolution or look at all the evidence?

I have a new conspiracy theory,

There is supposedly a lot of evidence to support evolution right (bearing in mind that the process of carbon dating and radio dating is horribly flawed and inaccurate) we can not deny the existence of dinosaur remains.
This in my mind is the biggest argument for evolution as it is the only solid evidence that is not refuted directly by the Bible.

What if the devil created these primitive animals and the reason for the flood was to wipe them out as well because they were evil!

I have a question other than pure faith, and life long teachings what proof is there that god even exists???

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
I have a question other than pure faith, and life long teachings what proof is there that god even exists???

Get yourself up one morning ... go to a PENTACOSTAL CHURCH .... When you feel god ... get up and honestly try and open up to someone ... How can I explain ... Hmm ... almost as if you were opening up to ... someone closing your eyes just liek he is a real person ask him something ... Then SHUT-UP ... Let him speak to you even if it takes days ... Sit there untill he speaks to you ... You will then know there is a god and you will not ever ask that question again .... You wanna know ... There you go .. don't ask me again ...

Originally posted by shmick25
I have a new conspiracy theory,

There is supposedly a lot of evidence to support evolution right

Yes, there is a lot of evidence to support evolution and natural selection

(bearing in mind that the process of carbon dating and radio dating is horribly flawed and inaccurate)

No, thats not true at all. What makes you say this?

This in my mind is the biggest argument for evolution as it is the only solid evidence that is not refuted directly by the Bible.

None of the evidence for evolution is refuted directly or indirectly by the bible. What evidence in particular are you thinking of and what part of the bible does this?

What if the devil created these primitive animals and the reason for the flood was to wipe them out as well because they were evil!

That would imply that the devil has creative powers on earth, and would make the devil the same as god. Also, one can come up with any sort of 'what if' when dealing with supernatural superpowerful beings. What if the fossils are figments of our imaginations placed there by spider gods? What if god designed everything to have the appearance of him not having designed it? Well, that would imply that god is a malicious trickster, giving man a rational mind and fabricating evidence from which one can only rationally conclude that the evolution occurs. One can make up all sorts of things when invoking supernatural powers. There is no scientific arguement against anything like that. Indeed, how could there be? But one can't use those arguments and say that one is being logical or rational or that their conclusions are well founded. Those conclusions would just be statements of faith, as equally valid as any other statement of faith. They'd be as 'right' as completely contradictory statements of faith.

what proof is there that god even exists

How could there be proof that any supernatural deity exists? Certainly not scientific evidence or scientific 'proof'.

I don't believe evolution just off of the science that proved it wrong. What i mean by this is that the chances that we came from Ameobas are so small, especially in the supposed atmosphere that could have been at the time. The chances of the Ameoba's coming together and forming proteins are about 1 in 1 Quantum Trillion, that's A one with about a billion set's of zeroes in front of it.


All I'm going to say is that I believe in God, everything he says. Everything he stands for. Evolution didn't happen, it was stated by scientists who didn't want to acept the fact that some kind of Divine Being created all of us.

A.Q.

Originally posted by AeroQuake
I don't believe evolution just off of the science that proved it wrong. What i mean by this is that the chances that we came from Ameobas are so small, especially in the supposed atmosphere that could have been at the time.

The chances of anything happening are astromically small. Besides, evolution works by building things stepwise, not by throwing together a highly improbably structure out of an unorganized mass.

The chances of the Ameoba's coming together and forming proteins are about 1 in 1 Quantum Trillion,

Thats not a number

that's A one with about a billion set's of zeroes in front of it.

No, thats not a number. a Gogol is probably the largest number (that has any sort of name anyway), being I think a one with a million zeros. Eitherway, when these sort of computations are usually done, they are looking at the whole thing as is and trying to figure out what the chances of each molecule or organelle forming at once as it is. Thats simply not what evolutionary theory claims as having happened. Everything in evolution is something new built on previous successes, not something being formed ad hoc or de novo.

All I'm going to say is that I believe in God, everything he says. Everything he stands for.

Which god? The one in the bible? Rama? Shiva? Zeus? Quetzelcoatl? Tammuz/adonis/jesus?

Evolution didn't happen, it was stated by scientists who didn't want to acept the fact that some kind of Divine Being created all of us.

And what is the proof of this? So all the scientists who accept evolution must be liars?
A.Q.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
I have a question other than pure faith, and life long teachings what proof is there that god even exists???

There is no proof.

Period.

How do people that believe in the Adam and Eve story consolate that whole "take one rib from Adam to make Eve," where there should be no doubt that man and woman have the same number of ribs. Do you just say that it is allegorical or something? That it wasn't meant to be taken literally? Shrug, sounded pretty literal to me. When science proves what you believe in wrong, you shouldn't just cop out and say something like 'well duh it wasn't meant to be taken literally.'