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Blame The Real Bad Guys - The Powers Behind Super Powers

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posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 12:47 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

While I assume what you are saying is correct, I can't confirm it. Granted the capacity that I am there for keeps me away from a lot of the normal Chinese "life" (I am in factories and restaraunts all day and night) I have never seen anyone being harrased by police or army or anything, in reality I don't even see those professions all that much. That is pretty odd when the smallest city I visit is something like 8 million people.

It is hard for me to explain my view of China, in some ways it is more free than the U.S., but in other ways it is a giant prison for most of its population. With as many people as there are living there, I feel like they don't value human life as much as we do in the west. That's not to say that they will try and hit peasants with their cars or something but if one did get hit, you would just pay off the family and the local police and be on your way. I think a lot of the differences stems from their lack of Christianity. Their form of Buddhism is quite different then other Asian countries though as well. But it is odd, being in a place that literally has no God. None what so ever. That is as foreign to me as Chicken feet were the first time I saw them. In fact it took a couple trips for that to really sink in.

I am no longer a practicing Christian, but I was raised as one therefore most of my morals and values are core Christian. Coming from that background, it is hard to fathom a complete lack of any of those matching morals and values. I think that is really the biggest difference, and the biggest obstacle. In the end both religions get to the same place more or less, Nirvana or Heaven.

I think I am rambling now, sorry for that.

*edit* More to the point of your last post, before I side tracked myself. Yes I think it appears that China has loosened its grip as the U.S. has tightened it's own, but I am not so sure it is that simple. Again we look at perception and reality.

I posit that in fact the U.S. has always had this tight of a grip, we just didn't realize it; And that China has as tight a grip as ever, but for the sake of appearances they let some things slide further than they want to.

Like I said I am really jaded the older I get. I am convinced we are all on the same treadmill, with the same carrot in front of us, just in a different cage. I wish I could go back to ignorance, I look around me and everyone seems pretty happy although I can't find much to be happy about.
edit on 8/25/2012 by sputniksteve because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 12:59 PM
reply to post by sputniksteve

You know personally I think a lot of people simply pretend to be happy. I think people are afraid to admit that they're unhappy because they think it's like admitting failure or something. In addition I think a lot of people are afraid to admit that the chinese way of life and the american way of life both amount to slightly different forms of prison and they have no idea how to fix it and even if they did they don't have the energy to do anything about it.

Edit: I'm not Christian by the way, but my religion does have a similar set of morals... Be nice to people, pretty much what it boils down to.
edit on 25-8-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 01:10 PM
reply to post by Symbiot

You know, I think it really is that they don't even know they are unhappy. They think this is what they are supposed to be doing, so they do it. They think they have all this stuff so they are happy. My family doesn't want to even think about whether or not their government has their best interest in mind, they really believe they do. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous to them. Just average Middle America consumers.

I wonder all the time if it is me that is crazy, or them. At this point in time I honestly don't even know any more. All I know is I am miserable.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 01:17 PM
reply to post by sputniksteve

Good lord that was like reading my own words. It's not just my family either, all of my old friends look at me like I'm crazy. I don't even care anymore, they're all on anti-depressants so they can call me crazy until they turn blue in the face, but I'm not choking down any pills just so I can bear another day.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 01:28 PM
Good post.
it looks just like the board game "Risk"

and if the game goes bad?
you are the ones to get nuc't

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 02:26 PM
reply to post by buddha

Does it really matter who gets nuked? The prevailing winds can be pretty harsh I hear.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 05:42 PM
Nuking ones source of income is probably not a good idea. But, food for thought... China is well known for their child bearing restrictions... and now abortion and social programs are both really hot button issues here in the US.

Maybe the shared, international, Corporate sponsored goal is to control population through birth control rules - and by making it hard for people to have kids... Turning parenthood into a luxury, rather than a right and a natural part of life.

Makes ya think.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 05:46 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

I'm not seeing any rules proposed in the US that would give government control of birth though, other than proposed bans on abortion which would actually increase population growth.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 05:49 PM
reply to post by Symbiot

Well the abortion debate is hot - as anybody on ATS can see... a LOT of opinions. But banning abortion could have a whiplash effect. There is a saying about giving somebody enough rope to hang themselves with. Banning abortion would create an immediate social problem. Immediate. After awhile people would demand a remedy...

That is where openings form for ideas like "parenting licenses"... Want a kid? Prove you're stable, not on drugs, employed, and able to provide...."

I know it seems outlandish right now... But think of all of the things we have today that were unthinkable even 20 years back...

Patriot Act... Rendition... Gitmo...


posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 06:07 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

I couldn't say that would definitely happen, but there certainly is a point to be made there. A lot of abortions are had by those who would otherwise be doomed to a lifetime of poverty because they cannot afford to take care of a child or cannot attend school and other such issues. A thought I had regarding the republican desire to ban abortions was that wealthy corporations actually desire more poor people because they equate to cheap labor. That was just a passing thought, sort of like legal illegal aliens, just cheap slave labor.
edit on 25-8-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 07:57 PM
Unfortunately, from a historical perspective, this is nothing new.

The link above does a great job explaining this, far better than I ever could. Excellent video by the way.

The shift of capital has little to do with nations or financial models. It has to do entirely with continued control of economic hegemony of a few. I know this is not new on ATS but the OP's concern in this context becomes a lot more clear.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 09:25 PM
Another interesting tid bit I've picked up... did you know that The US and China are role playing War Games in Cyberspace???

China and the U.S. are playing pretend war to vent their mutual frustrations and avoid a real one, according to a report by the Guardian. The State and Defense departments participated in two hypothetical-conflict sessions last year, and another round is planned for May. The war games were designed to prevent a “sudden military escalation” amid burgeoning anger in Washington over cyber attacks that the U.S. says are originating in China...

...During the first round, officials had to talk about what they would do if they were attacked by a computer virus like the Stuxnet worm that disabled nuclear facilities in Iran. Then they had to discuss how they’d react if they found out the attack was launched by the other side. “Known as "Track 1.5" diplomacy, it is the closest governments can get in conflict management without full-blown talks,” the newspaper reports.

And from a different source.

The US and China have been discreetly engaging in "war games" amid rising anger in Washington over the scale and audacity of Beijing-co-ordinated cyber attacks on western governments and big business, the Guardian has learned.

State department and Pentagon officials, along with their Chinese counterparts, were involved in two war games last year that were designed to help prevent a sudden military escalation between the sides if either felt they were being targeted. Another session is planned for May.

Though the exercises have given the US a chance to vent its frustration at what appears to be state-sponsored espionage and theft on an industrial scale, China has been belligerent.

"China has come to the conclusion that the power relationship has changed, and it has changed in a way that favours them," said Jim Lewis, a senior fellow and director at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) thinktank in Washington...

...Frank Cilluffo, who was George Bush's special assistant on homeland security, said the time had come to confront China.

"We need to talk about offensive capabilities to deter bad actors. You cannot expect companies to defend against foreign intelligence services. There are certain things we should do if someone is doing the cyber equivalent of intelligence preparation of the battlefield of our energy infrastructure...

China thinks the power balance has shifted...
Even though we think they are hacking us - we still keep diplomatic ties?
And notice... above the expert did not say we were protecting America... he said "companies"....

Very strange.


posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Hefficide

So why is nobody shoving Turkmenistan down my throat??? Very odd. Are we cherry picking Arabs to hate? And, if so... then why

The answer I seem to be coming up with is this: Turkmenistan was once part of the Soviet Empire. In short... they already got claimed by a world power. They're Russian property.

Turkmenistan is NOT Russian property. They are also not Arabs. The great mover in this region is Turkey. Turkey is the US Proxy in this region. Turkey has also been attempting to re-Islamify Central Asia, where there has been a power vacuum left after the end of the cold war.

The CIA has been operating in this region for a long time in conjunction with the Turkish Gulen Movement.

A memoir by a top former Turkish intelligence official claims that a worldwide moderate Islamic movement based in Pennsylvania has been providing cover for the CIA since the mid-1990s. The memoir, roughly rendered in English as “Witness to Revolution and Near Anarchy,” by retired Turkish intelligence official Osman Nuri Gundes, says the religious-tolerance movement, led by an influential former Turkish imam by the name of Fethullah Gulen, has 600 schools and 4 million followers around the world. In the 1990s, Gundes alleges, the movement "sheltered 130 CIA agents" at its schools in Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan alone, according to a report on his memoir Wednesday by the Paris-based Intelligence Online newsletter.

Who are the Gulen Movement (HIzmet)?

Turkey's Fethullah Gulen Community (FGC), also known as the Gulen movement after its founder and leader Fethullah Gulen, a Turkish Muslim preacher, often escapes scholarly attention. Yet no analysis of Turkey is complete without due attention paid to the FGC; a highly co-ordinated and centralised movement with many well-positioned followers, known as Gulenists. Some Turks deridingly refer to the movement as 'F-type' or 'Fethullahci' (followers of Fethullah).

According to FGC members, the organisation controls millions of dollars and has many organisations, including a network of high schools across the world that serve as signpost FGC institutions. In addition, the FGC owns universities, banks, non-governmental organisations and television networks in Turkey, as well as other countries. What is more, the FGC appears to have influence over the Turkish National Police (Emniyet), including the police's powerful domestic intelligence wing. The FGC's political power renders it a taboo topic in Turkey where many people shy away from discussing the group publicly.

The Turks have a polarised view of Gulen: some see him as a political leader such as Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, while others view him as the face of modern, non-violent, even reformed Islam. This and the FGC's political power makes the organisation worthy of closer scrutiny in an effort to map out its structure, global reach, message, political influence and future in Turkey.

It is difficult to know what is going on in Turkmenistan due to the extreme difficulty in getting a visa to visit.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 11:32 PM
Very interesting reads from across the board. I don't agree with some, but one thing is for certain, discussions like this is what makes me smile. I do have a question for those on this thread, with the recent economic slow down looming as the 800 pound gorilla in the room, do any of you think that it will affect the Chinese Economic Juggernaut? Alot of giant stores/business building/purpose built cities now stand empty according to reports. If this is true, China is not as invulnerable as we once though they were.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 11:41 PM
reply to post by SepticSceptic

China is purporting to have their own economic woes currently - though there is some dispute over just how bad it may or may not be...

A 12 hours old Bloomberg report gives some insight:

Premier Wen Jiabao said China needs targeted measures to promote steady export growth, which will help the nation meet its annual economic goals, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.

The country must pay attention to problems in imports and exports, Xinhua cited Wen as saying during an inspection tour in Guangdong, China’s biggest exporting province. He reiterated the government needs to increase the intensity of macro-economic adjustments to stabilize expansion in the second half of the year.

China’s export growth collapsed to 1 percent in July while industrial output and new yuan loans trailed estimates, heightening concerns that a slowdown in the world’s second- biggest economy is deepening. A private survey on Aug. 23 showed manufacturing may contract in August at the fastest pace in nine months and a gauge of new export orders was at its lowest level in more than three years.

My first thought was... wait a second... China having export problems? Not according to my local Wal Mart they aren't. But I kept reading and saw the underlying truth of it...

The World Trade Organization’s judges will probe China’s export quotas and tariffs on rare earths, tungsten and molybdenum, following complaints by the U.S., European Union and Japan that the curbs break global commerce rules. U.S. President Barack Obama last month accused China of imposing unfair taxes on American vehicles, mostly from General Motors Co. and Chrysler Group LLC.

China’s economy expanded 7.6 percent in the second quarter from a year earlier, the least in three years, as Europe’s debt crisis and elevated unemployment in the U.S. crimped export growth, and a prolonged crackdown on property speculation curbed domestic demand.

So... China is just feeling the pinch because we, in the west, aren't shopping as much as we used to. and it seems the WTO and the POTUS are more concerned with keeping GM protected than anything else...

The more I learn the more I start to eyeball just who's in charge around here...


posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 11:51 PM
reply to post by Hefficide

VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY interesting perspective Heff. What says you about China's artificial manipulation of the Yuan? COuld this also come back and bite them in the rear? I'm not an economist, but I do know that when you artificially undervalue your currency, it's no bueno.

posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 11:58 PM
reply to post by SepticSceptic

I've just begun scratching the surface on that one and I haven't put it all together yet. I do know this... Odds favor the house. Now to decide if China is the house - or if they're the sweating man who just let it all ride on eight the hard way...


posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 12:02 AM
reply to post by Hefficide

A gambling man!! Now you are speaking my language. I think that they are letting it ride and and hoping that they are on the side of right. Keep me posted, and by the way, thank you for this informative thread!

posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Eidolon23

Originally posted by Hefficide
Is that possible? Could we be in a deal with the Chinese? Could we have said "Let our corporations come into your economy and we'll clear out the oil fields right to your front door to ensure that these companies will have the competitive edge over their former American employee base"?

Very possible. Strong work, Hefficide.

What makes me shake my head: China is paying the US to purchase its goods

Their are quite a few people here who don't seem to understand how things really work from an economics perspective. And thats alright, it can be a bit dizzying to follow. But lets get a few things straight; the US is not purchasing "Chinese goods" but rather US goods manufactured in China. See, corporations do business in China because it is much cheaper. Yet these businesses maintain headquarters inside the United States. The profits made in China are actually quite miniscule compared to the profits US corps make by doing business in China. So there is definitely a profit motive behind why corporations do business in the third world. Lax restrictions when it comes to the environment, worker rights, pay, etc. all greatly contribute to why corporations do business in the third world.

For every Ipad built in China, China receives about 8$. The rest of the profit goes directly to the corporation responsible for the product, and the country where the corporation is headquartered benefits through GDP growth, stocks/investment opportunities, etc. which contributes to the greater health of a national economy. If we look at the Dow, the Nasdaq, and S&P 500, we see that even more clearly. Tech companies like Apple have greatly contributed to the rise in the Nasdaq. I also have no problem with US corps doing business in China, as it does act as a hedge against inflation. In all actuality, the US exports inflation to China. A cheaper product is the end result of doing business in the third world. I should also add that when China counts its GDP; it also includes foreign company profits into its GDP. In the west, we do not do this because, well, its misleading. China does this intentionally for a multitude of reasons. Primarily to give the idea of business confidence in China. It makes the numbers look better, and if their is one thing the chinese are good at, its cooking the numbers. So it is quite accurate to suggest that China does in fact overstate its GDP.

The OP mentions GDP PPP in his OP. This is also the metrics proposed by the IMF, but they seem to think the date will be by 2016. It should be added that Nominal GDP and PPP aren't quite the same thing. Both have their uses, but nominal GDP is the actual metrics in which economies interact with one another. I also happen to be of the belief that China is a bubble economy, too dependent on Fixed investment, and exports to the west to achieve growth. This is basically 1980's Japan all over again. Hedge fund managers like James Chanos, and Marc Faber all believe that China is due for a correction, and when the real-estate bubble, credit bubble, and commodity bubble pop, China will likely experience prolonged stagnation much like Japan has for the past two decades. There is actually a lot working against China, and in all reality, China has already peaked, at least economically. Basically, the past drivers of growth have virtually been exhausted. Without great reform taking place in China -- mixed with all the hurdles that lie in front of China -- China will become largely irrelevant in the future.

posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 12:34 AM
reply to post by rock427

The US Trade Representative gives us some really solid numbers regarding importing and exporting to China. While I'm sure that much or most of that trade is from western companies, operating within China... I'm sure that some of it is Chinese product. There is a healthy agriculture import from China to the US for example - and I doubt we're outsourcing farmers yet.

But none of this disputes the things I've been saying. My point IS that global conglomerates ( primarily US owned entities ) are using the Chinese for profit maximization. This is one of the major factors in my thoughts. I do realize that we've been on the China/USA subject for a few pages... But this is called "The Powers Behind Super Powers"... and obviously both the US and China are super powers. All I'm doing is working my way to the "behind them" part.

Spoiler alert: It's multinational conglomerates and financial services firms.


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