Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
But the living cell is in HER body, and she has the right to get that cell out of her body if she wants to. She should not be forced to keep that cell in her body against her will.

and in doing so that woman is killing a life.
let's say in a circus act a man as to balance himself on a rope hung 5 stores high, at this height, falling would mean death for sure. Now the twist is that a second man has to balance on top of the first man.
the second man is on top of the first mans "body", not only that, the first man has to work twice as much because he has to carry the second man.
The question is, should the first man be allowed legally to throw the man on top of him because its his body?
even if both men agreed to perform the stunt?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
casual way to get rid of the inconvenience.

Are you speaking from experience?

I know people who have went through the experience, and it was anything but Casual.

I'm glad it didn't bother you at all.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

That is one way to look at it, but I guess it's better for it just to die before it has any chance? Perhaps the real solution is to teach people to have more respect for all life and not just a casual way to get rid of the inconvenience.It seems that sex ed hasn't stemmed the tide really.

I agree with you 100% killing would be babies is not the solution for poverty, bad parenting, etc etc
if anything making abortion illegal for those that use it as a casual form of birth control will make them
think twice about casual sex. Or they will get better birth control
at least a life will not be killed meaninglessly

I am not going to read through the ignorance in this post, and yes Beezer, a good deal of it is ignorance. Pro choice folks are not pro-abortion, they just feel the choice should exist. I was married to a woman that had made that choice at a young age, and it haunted her. I am now married to a woman that had a child at 16. The government at any level, has no dog in this fight. This is a choice a woman makes and nobody else should have an opinion.

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Plenty of women did when abortions were outlawed. Why should they have to?

You mean, they didn't get some doctor to do it for them.... they just did it themselves?

Seriously? Source please?

en.wikipedia.org...

Good morning! I'd like to thank navy doc, TOA. Outkast, Stormdancer and others for keepingthe discussion going.
(pouring a cup of tea)
Lets get started, shall we?

There are many posts to pick a starting point to reply to but I'll choose this. . .

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
reply to post by beezzer

 

In your OP you mention a lot of "rights"

How about this one?

What gives you the "right" to decide other people's lives?

As I stated in my OP, I see abortion as a civil rights issue. Deciding to acknowledge that unborn children have rights is not deciding other people's lives. Is granting women the right to vote deciding other peoples lives? Is determining that blacks have the same rights as whites, "deciding other peoples lives"? Is allowing gays in the military, "deciding other peoples lives?

No.

It is being aware that life does have rights.

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
I am not going to read through the ignorance in this post, and yes Beezer, a good deal of it is ignorance. Pro choice folks are not pro-abortion, they just feel the choice should exist. I was married to a woman that had made that choice at a young age, and it haunted her. I am now married to a woman that had a child at 16. The government at any level, has no dog in this fight. This is a choice a woman makes and nobody else should have an opinion.

The site says I need 2 sentences to make a reply.

Its a shame my 2 sentences are on the same page as the best post written on ATS in years.

reply to post by kaylaluv


Alright... wasn't aware of that one... although I sort of was, I guess... no less cringeworthy... lol

What do you think about state enforced child support?

Originally posted by beezzer

As I stated in my OP, I see abortion as a civil rights issue.

Had I been logged on earlier, I would have saved this site some Bandwidth.

You see the issue as civil rights issue.

Thats YOUR opinion, and you know what Opinions are compared too, Everyone has one.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


And everyone has the right to voice the one they have. An important caveat of your rationale.

Just sayin'.

~Heff

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
I am not going to read through the ignorance in this post, and yes Beezer, a good deal of it is ignorance. Pro choice folks are not pro-abortion, they just feel the choice should exist. I was married to a woman that had made that choice at a young age, and it haunted her. I am now married to a woman that had a child at 16. The government at any level, has no dog in this fight. This is a choice a woman makes and nobody else should have an opinion.

abortion is a medical procedure done by doctors who were taught by other doctors. As a medical procedure doctors have every right to question its morality.
If the abortion is done through insurance then tax money is involved. Anyone has the right to question what their tax money is being used and if its moral.
In an abortion the would be baby has half the fathers DNA. The father has the right to to an opinion since it involves his would be son/daughter

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

And everyone has the right to voice the one they have. An important caveat of your rationale.

Just sayin'.

~Heff

Yes sir, you are bang on.

But to use their"opinion" as a starting off point in legalities, is opening a entire can of worms.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by pierregustavetoutant
The right to life supercedes the right to not be inconvenienced.
The desire not to be inconvenienced does not give the right to commit murder against an innocent.
Pretty weak argument.

Being sentenced to 18 years of hard labor for the child and the parent for poor judgment seems excessive to me.

I hardly think the 18 year obligation, financial, emotional or otherwise counts as simply an "inconvenience" for the parent...

It’s not just best for the woman either - what kind of life do unwanted children lead? Usually, in poverty likely in trouble with the law and in most instances repeating the cycle with a new generation of their own. Imagine growing up with a parent who resents you as a burden...

A parent who will say - you ruined my life...is a #ty one we can all agree…

However the fact remains - they didn’t want to be one. If the government makes them have a child they don’t want what kind of life do you see for them?

Ever met someone who grew up that way? I have - guilt ridden, maladjusted and in trouble with the law from a young age, chip on shoulder , angry, whatever you want to call it - you name it…all that and more are the neato things they develop. Unhappy!

Outstanding, I bet that's a sweet way to live. Talk about years of therapy in the making. Who will pay for all that maladjustment...

We will, that's who...all to protect the innocent who more likely than not will grow up resented by their parent(s) and a burden to the taxpayer. Unplanned and unwanted children invariably grow up feed at the public troth in some way.

It is more humane to end that life before it begins than to sentence them a crappy life of poverty and rejection from the one person who is supposed to love them unconditionally.

Parenthood.
It's a responsibility many have abdicated, to be sure. But it is not a situation where government is adding more laws. It is a situation where government is removing it's denial of rights to an underclass of human beings. We've gone so far away from parental responsibility.
But like in civil rights people had to learn to think differently.
Blacks were no longer objets, but people.
More recently, gays were no longer people with mental defects but people with a different preference.

When are we going to evolve to a point where we stop looking at the unborn as tissue to be discarded, as second class citizens to be ignored, as an inconvenience to be swept away with a visit to a clinic?

reply to post by Tw0Sides


So when blacks weren't considered people, what side would you have been on and why?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

So when blacks weren't considered people, what side would you have been on and why?

I see with this question, you are setting me up in a catch22 , which has no correct answer.

But unlike the bobble heads that continue to star you, I will play along.

Answer your question;

It depends in which era you are asking the question.

Back in Slavery times, Slave owners weren't wrong for owning slaves. It was accepted as the way it was, is , and always was.

In more modern times, people realize we are just people, all of us, and no one should be enslaved, Different Mindset.

Originally posted by beezzer

When are we going to evolve to a point where we stop looking at the unborn as tissue to be discarded, as second class citizens to be ignored, as an inconvenience to be swept away with a visit to a clinic?

I think the issue boils down to the recognition of the fertilized egg as a life or not.
some people (pro-choice/abortion) think that prior to a baby being born he/she/it is nothing but a piece of meat
others (anti-abortion) think that the fertilized egg is a life by itself
IMO thinking a zygote is nothing but a skin cell is very selfish and convenient

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
That is one way to look at it, but I guess it's better for it just to die before it has any chance?

I think it is more humane - yes. Your opinion may differ.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorusPerhaps the real solution is to teach people to have more respect for all life and not just a casual way to get rid of the inconvenience.

Again - way more than an inconvenience my good fellow. A burden - to the system and to the parent and ultimately to the child too.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
It seems that sex ed hasn't stemmed the tide really.

You'll get no argument from me there. It's fairly obvious that people in 2012 still don't know (or don't care) how babies are made.

Either that or they are so selfish they don't care. IMO creating a child in a period of famine and war is about as horrible an act I can imagine but look to the third world for how often that happens. All for the fleeting moments of final pleasure?

To procreate without the means to support one's offspring should be an assault charge for the despair and harm it causes the child. It is the one area our government doesn't want to touch - poor, stupid, mentally ill, and insane who cares making babies is a fundamental human right...

Screw the societal or individual consequences...of unwanted children.

Why do people do it still, I think its because "for the sake of the children" we underwrite all the poor choices with aid and comfort. If we stopped underwriting people's poor decisions they'd eventually stop making them. However, if there are no real consequences why change the behavior. Your opinion may differ.

reply to post by ImaFungi


So you don't exist if you are dependent on someone or something else to survive?

So I can kill my Mom it would be alright because according to you she doesn't exist.

She has an ICD unit in her chest, take it out she dies so therefore, because of her dependency she doesn't exist?

That should clean out alot of people in this would, especially everyone dependent on other tax payers to keep them feed and housed etc.

Anyone on dialysis...the possibilities are endless!

Epic fail.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

So when blacks weren't considered people, what side would you have been on and why?

I see with this question, you are setting me up in a catch22 , which has no correct answer.

But unlike the bobble heads that continue to star you, I will play along.

Answer your question;

It depends in which era you are asking the question.

Good point.

Back in Slavery times, Slave owners weren't wrong for owning slaves. It was accepted as the way it was, is , and always was.

Just like abortion is now.

In more modern times, people realize we are just people, all of us, and no one should be enslaved, Different Mindset.

Exactly! The realisation that blacks are as deserving as whites with regards to freedoms like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was a big turning point.

We just need to grow a little more as a society, a culture, a species.

Just for an off the wall question. It's inspired by this cartoon:



So basically, let's say if unborn have rights.

What if they choose not to be born. Would you allow them that right?

Or do they have to be born?