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Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

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posted on Aug, 28 2012 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Serdgiam
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


From the perspective that a fetus is not human, or even a living being (mentioned earlier in the thread), the idea of correlating the topic to equal rights, in general, could definitely be seen as offensive.

Of course, getting offended and confused by it also displays the distinct possibility that said perspective never considered others might actually consider the fetus a human from the moment of conception.

As far as the issue the poster has with beezzer separately stating mens rights and blacks rights... *shrug* Maybe misunderstood the idea behind doing what the OP did. If one is looking to be offended, they most certainly will find it.


Originally posted by LanaDan
Thus, blacks are not men?


Some are indeed women.
edit on 26-8-2012 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)


How is the suggestion that the fetus is a living being offensive? An issue of debate and disagreement for certain, but I do not understand how one could be offended. (Not you, specifically, but people in general.)
edit on 26-8-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


Edited to quote you:


Of course, getting offended and confused by it also displays the distinct possibility that said perspective never considered others might actually consider the fetus a human from the moment of conception.


I think you may actually have hit the nail on the proverbial head.
edit on 26-8-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


The distinction that indigenous people of the Americas came from the Pope in 1530, when he declared the indigenous populations are human!

Right now, civil rights are extended to those who are "born." To compare the real discrimination, imprisonment and slavery, the life lost defending their culture, land and right to a self determined life struggling thought the most of dehumanizing ways, to a fertilized human egg is insulting.
edit on 26-8-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)


No it isn't. THroughout history there have been groups of people who have been offcially considered less than human. To point that out is not insulting at all. To say that African Americans deserve civil rights does not take away from the abuses of the Native Americans one iota.


I never said that. You're being obtuse.

I repeat.

To compare the real discrimination, imprisonment and slavery, the life lost defending their culture, land and right to a self determined life, struggling thought the most of dehumanizing assaults against their spirit, to a fertilized human egg is insulting.


I once had a converstation with an African American man who was insulted that someone would compare the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement. Why he would feel insulted, other than homophobia, I have no idea. Pointing out one groups lack of rights cannot demean another groups past struggle for rights because when you strugle for rights, even if those rights are not part of your group, you struggle for everyone ultimately.




posted on Aug, 28 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by Serdgiam


Well, the idea of education wasnt pertaining to gaining occupation. It was more for being better prepared to deal with a child. To instill confidence about the matter, if nothing else, as well as being a preventative measure of sorts. This can be done, to an extent, through reading books and the internet. But, those being available would only compliment a real education on the matter. The tests of learning through a book and the internet are carried out when one tries them on their child, whereas in a classroom environment, they can be carried out on paper then refined in the "real world."

I agree, but occupation and a good income is important as well. After spending years at school I think everyone would desire to make a decent salary. And, again, having an education does not entirely means that a person can raise a kid better. I even sometimes feel like a bad parent and wonder if my baby would be happier with a different mother. I guess every parent wonders about it once in a while.



I think that last sentence there is pretty telling... It is my belief that a healthy family unit would be one that spends quality time together. This can be reduced as the child grows older, but in the time after birth, I feel it is extremely important to spend as much time as possible. Of course, we need to balance it because there are just stressful things about being with someone, anyone, 24/7 (especially an infant!). The idea that someone isnt actively working with an infant shouldnt be a negative thing, since I think that is exactly how it should be.

100% agree. I sometimes feel jealous that some of my friends who can stay at home with their children and do not think about not having enough money to pay bills. I wish I could do the same. May be one day.



In the grand scheme, and in the general population though, one who isnt working is not assisting society. It doesnt seem to matter at what cost this idea is implemented. A healthy family unit is considerably more productive overall, and has a significantly more positive impact on the "whole" than simply working for some faceless business at the cost of something much greater. This starts to go into a whole 'nother topic though.


Agree again. For some reasons, it is believed that if you do not work and stay at home with kids-you do nothing. To be honest, I relax at work more, it is a hard job to raise a child.



I dont think it will necessarily solve anything by determining when a fetus attains human rights. It doesnt matter if science or logic eventually proves it one way or the other, and we certainly do not have any empirical and quantitative evidence currently. I think part of the real solution is to encourage a society and world that empowers individuals to be able to properly care for their children. Because as long as the environment and reasons exist for getting an abortion, women will be getting them. The decision will be justified by any means necessary to be able to live with the decision whether or not that justification is based in truth, just like anything else in life.


Agree again. We need to justify an abortion, if we would not, some of us would not be able to live with a guilt. I justified mine. It works for me for now, but like I mentioned before I might regret it in the future and feel guilty.
edit on 28-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by kyviecaldges

Okay... Let me see if I understand this.

If a viable person can only live through the aid of a machine then their chance of survival is low?
But if a fetus can only develop through the aid of a machine then their chance of survival is high?!?!?!

Can you explain this to me a bit more because this idea sounds patently absurd if I can be totally honest with you.


the only instance when you can pull the plug of a machine on which a human live depends on is when the chances of survival are near zero, mostly comatose persons with seriously degraded health
these are cases were doctors have usually given up hope


Not true. You are misinformed. A person can have a "Living Will" with an Advanced Health Directive, en.wikipedia.org... in which one can reject any "Extraordinary Measures" that would prolong their life.

When my father had a stroke, we called 911. The paramedics took him to the hospital, where the doctors informed us that he had a "Living Will" on file rejecting any measure be taken. He laid in a coma in a hospital room, for 5 days before he passed from starvation and weakness, as per his wishes.

When my mother choked on a pill, we called 911, and the paramedics intubated her and took her to the hospital, where the doctors told us she had a "Living Will" that rejected their assistance. I sat there with her for 7 hours, until she died from lack of oxygen.



a developing fetus is not sick, if the fetus grows properly then it is generally accepted that the baby will live on
you can't go around killing prenatal babies in incubators can you?
in the scenario I gave you, the fetus in a high tech incubator would be virtually the same thing as
a prenatal baby in an incubator


If a woman is 4 months pregnant and is killed in a car accident, the doctors at the hospital will NOT go to extraordinary efforts to save that fetus, because it's to young to survive outside of the uterus, as their lungs are still too underdeveloped, even in a fancy incubator.

edit on 28-8-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 03:06 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 


The "alley butchers" as in Planned Parenthood are killing women every day, read the papers.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by windword
 


I'm a nurse. People die of dehydration, not of starvation. I have a living will and I want to die quickly, not lying in a hospital room with an IV for hydration.

On topic, barbarians kill their young. When will we become a civilized society and protect the most weak among us?



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1

On topic, barbarians kill their young. When will we become a civilized society and protect the most weak among us?


You mean like the already LIVING abused - abandoned - hungry - unwanted children?

Reality sucks - doesn't it?



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Happy1

On topic, barbarians kill their young. When will we become a civilized society and protect the most weak among us?


You mean like the already LIVING abused - abandoned - hungry - unwanted children?

Reality sucks - doesn't it?

So your justification for abortion is because children are hungry and unwanted?

I know you're big into gay rights.

Just wondering why you are so adimant towards unborn rights.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by windword
 


I'm a nurse. People die of dehydration, not of starvation. I have a living will and I want to die quickly, not lying in a hospital room with an IV for hydration.


Right, he had an IV for hydration, so tell me again how he died of dehydration?



On topic, barbarians kill their young. When will we become a civilized society and protect the most weak among us?


Love your little catch phrase there. Barbarian! What does that even mean? Pray tell, what is a barbarian, the same as a heathen?

PS: If you would like a guarantee that you die quickly, it might behoove you to have a barbarian in you pocket! Doctors don't murder Hospice patients.
edit on 30-8-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Isn't that an excuse?

Its just like saying..

The world is corrupted, School system is messed up, too many pedophiles on the street, and lots of children are in Africa with no food, so lets not have children to save them from these misfortunes?

People will lose jobs, that does not mean they should not buy house which will depend on a steady income.

car accidents kill a lot of people that does not mean you should prevents your children from driving cars... well... this can keep going..
J
ust because there are misfortunes in the world does not mean we should turn away from it.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Why do people care more about fetuses, that have no emotions or can even feel, then the neglected, abused children that are here?



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by beezzer
 


Why do people care more about fetuses, that have no emotions or can even feel, then the neglected, abused children that are here?


Apples/oranges.

We can discuss abused children in another thread.

This is really about the terminal abuse of the unborn.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by luciddream
 


Are you actually comparing buying a house to a starving child?

So your answer is to add to the problem of abused, and starving children by forcing more starving children into the world?

This is the hypocrisy I can't see. Life isn't always a better option than death, or no one would commit suicide.

Forcing children into a world of neglect, abuse, and poverty, which is a very frightening place, is not an answer.

Yet the only answer the unedcuated kool aid drinkers can come up with is, it is better than death. No, it is not.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


How is your life??? Is it perfect??? Is it without negatives and strife???

Would you rather be dead?



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
So your justification for abortion is because children are hungry and unwanted?


It is a REAL LIFE reason not to bring another child into this world.

There is not ONE unselfish reason to bring another child into this world.

There are many unselfish reasons not to.


I know you're big into gay rights.


EQUAL RIGHTS of the Living.


Just wondering why you are so adimant towards unborn rights.


You mean cells with potential to mature?

I am ADAMANT - - - it is no one's business but the one making the decision.



edit on 30-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


Yup!



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Ever hear of waiting till marriage and commitment?

Guess that's too old fashion.

If humans are so superior to animals than why are we performing sexual acts indiscriminately like we go to a movie or bowling. A male dog sees a female dog in heat and they go to town - humans are suppose to be above the animals in controlling their urges.

Sex wasn't meant to be a pleasant past time done with every Tom, Dick and Harry. Sex was meant to be a act of love, hence the term, making love not just 8&%$#ng.

It was meant to express your love and connect fully with one other human being.

But now days so many people have degraded to a animal level they don't see that or care.

Go ahead and abort all your relatives (those that share your bloodline)............anyone with 50% of my blood running through them lives.

So tired of the mixed up, degenerate and twisted dark self centered "new age view".

It's full of hooey - Get to know someone, fall in love with their decency, honesty, goodness, kindness and honor - get married then have that night to remember.

Why do you think the divorce rate is now close to 50% and most kids grow up with only one parent if that.

We as a society have now embraced the darkness - evil in it's purest form.

Welcome to satan's new world order.
edit on 30-8-2012 by ofhumandescent because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


No, it is not apples and oranges, and that is a disgusting cop out.

People have abortions because they don't have the means to raise the child. So you want to force a child into situation where the parents don't want them, they may be abusive, they have to fight for survival everyday. IT is a miserable and frightening existance that you want to force MORE children into, to put FURTHER strain on the few resources that are there.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by ofhumandescent
 


Someone who sits in their comfy, pefect home, huffing the downey,with absolutely no clue how the real world, especially the world of the poor, actually works.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by luciddream

Isn't that an excuse?


NO.

You are calling LIVING - - - abused - - hungry - - unwanted children an excuse?

Are you serious?



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 





Are you actually comparing buying a house to a starving child?


No i was just comparing the idea behind it...

Just out of fear of losing your job, you are not going to invest in house? or car? since you need steady income for those.




So your answer is to add to the problem of abused, and starving children by forcing more starving children into the world?


Well, if you are for abort, why do we make a rule where NO ONE should have kids until the entire world is fed?

you never going to get a world of no pain.



the only answer the unedcuated kool aid drinkers


Im not sure what that means... but quick Google search said republican, so i assume you mean people care about life are automatically a republican and pro-life? lol

i don't care about what people do with their unborn kid, i was mainly against the fact they do this in denial calling it a "lump of cells".

As for an the "unedcuated" part... just because i care about a single organism more than others does not make me a uneducated person or ugggh religious....

- An Atheist Microbiologist.
edit on 8/30/2012 by luciddream because: added "others"





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