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Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

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posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by queenofswords
 


And I am not trying to defend myself, but these stories... I have a story too. My cousin got pregnant when she was 15, she kept a baby. Baby was pretty much raised by her grandmother because my cousin was achieving her career dreams. My niece now is 22 years old, divorced and had several abortions, as well as had sex with more than 100 men. Her mom, my aunt, simply gave up one her telling that genes of her father made her the way she is. It is always stories...and different ones as well.




posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:17 PM
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There is ALWAYS a Story.

I spontaneously miscarried my first pregnancy at 4 months. A year later I had my first daughter.

IF I had not aborted the first pregnancy - - I would not have my daughter.

Would I have missed my daughter if the first child lived? NO - - because I would never have known she existed.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:21 PM
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Let's get back to the civil rights issue of an unborn child. These "stories" are starting to sound like a soap opera that just goes on and on. I'm starting to think some gene pools should go dry.....and I don't want to go there!



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by queenofswords
 


So when do you feel that rights are afforded to a baby?

I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that you feel those rights are given at conception. Why do you feel this way?



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by Serdgiam
 


If the technology will help babies survive from the conception and fetuses will not need a mother, it will be a miracle. And I will be happy for those fetuses, but again if whoever does it will agree to raise those children and take care of them. If a mother does not want to have a child even though she does not have to carry a baby inside of her, no one can force her to take care of a baby. As I mentioned a mother decides to have a child or not. To me a fetus becomes a baby when a baby can survive outside without a mother. Even though if a technology will get to the level that a baby can survive without a mother from the day of conception, it is still up to a mother to decide. It is just my opinion, even though it might seem a cruel one.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by kaylaluv
 



Plenty of women did when abortions were outlawed. Why should they have to?


You mean, they didn't get some doctor to do it for them.... they just did it themselves?

Seriously? Source please?

Yes women have and continue to do it all the time. It is quite dangerous..

The practice of self-induced abortion by various means has long been recorded in the United States. Turn-of-the-20th-century birth control advocate Margaret Sanger wrote in her autobiography of a 1912 incident in which she was summoned to treat a woman who had nearly died from such an attempt.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by queenofswords
That's right, Annee. You would not know what you were missing.

I'm not judging you. I'm just putting some facts out there. We all have to live with the choices we make in life. You seem to be doing just fine, and that's good.



FACTS?

No - - you are trying to wield a judgmental guilt "club".

But I don't care. I made the right decisions for me and my family.

You can take your pity party somewhere else.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by queenofswords
That's right, Annee. You would not know what you were missing.

I'm not judging you. I'm just putting some facts out there. We all have to live with the choices we make in life. You seem to be doing just fine, and that's good.



FACTS?

No - - you are trying to wield a judgmental guilt "club".

But I don't care. I made the right decisions for me and my family.

You can take your pity party somewhere else.


You have an attitude, woman. I'm not judging YOU. I think maybe your own hidden guilt is judging you, so just shut up with your defensive attitude. You got an abortion. You're fine with it. Good. That's what I said earlier. Good for you that you can put that in your neat little box and live with it. I AM NOT judging you, so stop accusing me. I am stating my opinion about abortion in general.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by Serdgiam
reply to post by queenofswords
 


So when do you feel that rights are afforded to a baby?

I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that you feel those rights are given at conception. Why do you feel this way?


As I have stated in earlier posts, it's a conundrum. I believe life begins at conception based on simple logic. But the subject of rights is complicated and convoluted. There are moral, ethical, philosophical, social, and medical components to the rights issue. But, I do not think we should close the book on the subject because in 1973 the climate of the times allowed a developing life to be snuffed out at the whim of its mother.
edit on 26-8-2012 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-8-2012 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by Serdgiam
 


To me a fetus becomes a baby when a baby can survive outside without a mother.


I know.
Im not quite as dense as I appear. Its actually why I asked the question, because I am trying to better understand you and where you are coming from. I want to learn more about such a differing viewpoint from my own and I simply can not do that from my own perspective. I really do have respect for you.

In the case of the fetus in the "tube" though, the baby was never inside the mother. So, when do you feel the rights are given in this case? What if the baby, even at 39 weeks, needs to still be put on artificial life support after it is taken out of the "test tube?"


It is just my opinion, even though it might seem a cruel one.


I am in absolutely no position to judge you.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by queenofswords
I think maybe your own hidden guilt is judging you,


Nope.

Attitude sometimes forces someone to reveal their true self - - when that is not what they intended.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by queenofswords
As I have stated in earlier posts, it's a conundrum. I believe life begins at conception based on simple logic.


Thats how I have come to my conclusion as well, at least until new information presents itself that causes me to reconsider (if/when).


But the subject of rights is complicated and convoluted. There are moral, ethical, philosophical, social, and medical components to the rights issue. But, I do not think we should close the book on the subject because in 1973 the climate of the times allowed a developing life to be snuffed out at the whim of its mother.


I feel it is complicated as well. There are many complexities to this topic, and also the overarching topic of legislation of subjective morality. I actually feel that by making such a thing illegal, it has a strong possibility of compounding the problem. I do not hold onto the illusion that abortions will stop, I believe it would just make the situation significantly less safe. It would also increase profits by the creation of a black market, drawing a criminal element whose practices tend to be questionable at best.

I do feel it is a human rights issue, but referencing back to the civil rights movement, the change of laws only followed a change in the societal norm. I feel we know too little about the "human condition" to speak in absolutes on much of anything, much less this specific topic. Though we can still attempt to learn as much as we can as we go along.

I think by closing the book on discussion, we also close our minds to learning.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by Serdgiam
 


It is such a complex subject, that I do not even know the answer. Do fetuses should have rights? They should as well. Can the government make the law stating that fetuses have equal rights and abortion is a murder now? I do not think the government can make such law. Abortions were banned during Stalin's leadership and my native country suffered from the number of illegal abortions and deaths of women and babies. It is not the option. I do not believe that abortion is okay, it is not. It is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life. Every time I think about the abortion I had I feel sad. I cannot say that I regret it now or I am depressed because of that, but I might regret it in the future when my life circumstances change.
edit on 26-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by Serdgiam
 


It is such a complex subject, that I do not even know the answer.


I appreciate your honesty. It is complex, as are many issues facing the world as a whole. But, I do have faith that together, we can come to agreements and solutions that benefit us all, even if we disagree on core ideology.


I do not think the government can make such law. Abortions were banned during Stalin's leadership and my native country suffered from the number of illegal abortions and deaths of women and babies. It is not the option.


I think they absolutely can, but should they? I do not believe so. Just making something illegal creates a whole new set of problems. Though, that is without a doubt, the circuitous treadmill that keeps us all divided, occupied, and distracted. We need a new method, and I think we are demonstrating that in our discourse right here and now.


I do not believe that abortion is okay, it is not. It is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life. Every time I think about the abortion I had I feel sad. I cannot say that I regret it now or I am depressed because of that, but I might regret it in the future when my life circumstances change.


It is not my place to tell you what to do, but when and if that time comes, have no regret. There is nothing you can do to change it. If and when that time comes, all any of us can do is choose to live differently from that point on. It doesnt matter what the topic or subject is.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by Serdgiam
 


I agree with you. And thank you for not judging. Hopefully, one day we will be able to make this world a better place for all of us: born human beings and not born yet humans.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by queenofswords
I think maybe your own hidden guilt is judging you,


Nope.

Attitude sometimes forces someone to reveal their true self.





Yes, that is quite true.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by LanaDan
 


You are quite welcome. Thank you for being willing to answer a bunch of seemingly asinine questions
We obviously dont agree about the civil rights part here, but we sure showed that we can still learn from and about each other. It is too bad so few have been willing to do so in this thread, we could all really learn a lot about each other.

Perhaps in doing so, we can start to explore and become more specific about when one really does become human and inherit their rights. Who knows, maybe such a core lesson of cooperation can even save the world.

I hope for that day too, and the only way we will get there is if we just try, and start now, instead of continuing to put it off. I really do feel its up to us, individually. I guess there is only one way to find out, eh?



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by windword
Do you know why the gov't has suicide laws? Hint, it's not because the gov't cares whether one lives or dies. No one can stop a self determined person from ending their own life. It's a right that "GOD" gave us, and no one can take away or bestow.

The suicide laws are in place to give "permission" or legal mandate for EMT's, police and doctors to intervene so care can be provided to the person, giving them another chance to see things in a different light, and maybe turn their situation around. Suicide is permanent and often done rashly, in haste after some trauma that the victim perceives as insurmountable.

These laws represent the altruism in our society.

last time I checked abortion was a permanent thing too
were is the altruism in killing babies
your reasons of why suicide laws exists actually help my argument of why abortion laws exist


Originally posted by windword
Then you don't support women's rights. Throwing emotionally charged words around like, kill, murder and death, it shows just how much you place the rights of the fertilized egg above those of the woman's.

If you believe that a fertilized egg is a person and deserves the same rights as a living child, then you don't support the use of the Pill, IUD's or the "Morning After" pill. This line of thinking takes away a woman's self determination to have sex, yet not conceive a child. It places her in a position of slavery to biology and forces her into a role of "baby maker."

All Hail the Holy Fertilized Ovum!

kill, murder, death are actually factual things that happen in abortion
seems like the one using the emotional approach is you
throwing away words like slavery and "baby maker"
I never said a fertilized egg is a person, I said every human life at any stage should have a right to live
and no I'm not against the morning after pill or any other form of birth control


Originally posted by windword
So you would be against a woman using deadly force to fend off a rapist. And then you think that the pregnancy, as a result of said rape, should be protected, because an abortion would be killing a baby under the excuse of "doing what one wants with their body.

again with the rape argument
this is what pro-choice supporters usually fall back to when they have nothing better to say
but...but.. the rape!!
no I'm not against women using deadly force against a rapist, it's called self defense
I'm pretty tired of repeating that I think rape, and serious health complications do justify abortion
key world there is "justify"
just like having casual sex is not a justification for abortion



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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I believe abortion will become like the animal rights issue.

In my grandfather's day, when a mama cat had kittens, people just put them in a tote sack and tossed them into a river or lake. They did not think this reprehensible. It was simply a way to get rid of an unwanted bunch of cats around the house.

Today, we are appalled that one would even think about doing such a thing. I believe with education, more sensitivity to the miracle and value of life, and better ways to assist those in despair, abortion will become an appalling thought. Society will phase it out --- not government legislation.

We will simply KNOW it's wrong on the basic of levels.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by Serdgiam
 


You are right. I am glad I started reading this thread and participated in the discussion. It made me look differently at some things. If we want to change something, we should at least try to do so.
I also agree that it is up to us individually to change it. But the government needs to step us as well. All women I know had abortions mostly because they could not afford a child, they could not take a time off from work and etc. So it seems that the main reason for abortions is not the ability to have a child financially. Just look the the American law, few employers provide paid maternal leave for mothers. Women only have 6 weeks unpaid leave after birth when your job is guaranteed. . I think it is the shortest leave in the whole world. It is definitely not enough. I stayed with my son for 6 months. Then I had to work to support us. I wish the government would think more about these things and may be abortion rate would drop.
edit on 26-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)



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