Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

I care about the unconscious animate matter which belongs to nature and god in and of everyones body... I am going to sue the people of the world and make sure they cannot eat fast food,, or smoke or drink,, because their bodies have rights too!! They should no longer be enslaved to masters who cannot properly think for themselves!!

Originally posted by ImaFungi


I care about the unconscious animate matter which belongs to nature and god in and of everyones body... I am going to sue the people of the world and make sure they cannot eat fast food,, or smoke or drink,, because their bodies have rights too!! They should no longer be enslaved to masters who cannot properly think for themselves!!

I'm sure you know the difference between a sentient being and an inanimate object. Question: when did you become a sentient being and when do you think sentient beings should be protected?

Originally posted by NavyDoc


But you said that earlier people determine morality and legality. Why would you want to force your belief system on others if the entire society wanted slavery and society determines what is moral and what is not? If the entire society wanted slavery and thought it was moral, would that not make your objection to slavery the immoral stance?

the entire society could not want slavery,,, because at any point there is a slave,, i am sure the slave would not want to be a slave,,..,,.

i can hardly imagine the type of barbaric society that would want slavery,, its not a society id ever want to be apart of,,, i would not force my belief system i would just leave......


" If the entire society wanted slavery and thought it was moral, would that not make your objection to slavery the immoral stance?"

this depends if freedom means anything and if freedom is good,.,.,. if freedom is good,,, then slavery is bad,, slavery being bad makes it immoral.,,.,..,

this is why morals are relative..,,. it is just a word used to define an accepted practice,.,.,. if a new practice is learned or an old one learned to be negative,,, the moral or perception of the practice can be altered,.., the ideas and principles are what matters most,,, not the words ,.,.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by ImaFungi


I care about the unconscious animate matter which belongs to nature and god in and of everyones body... I am going to sue the people of the world and make sure they cannot eat fast food,, or smoke or drink,, because their bodies have rights too!! They should no longer be enslaved to masters who cannot properly think for themselves!!

I'm sure you know the difference between a sentient being and an inanimate object. Question: when did you become a sentient being and when do you think sentient beings should be protected?

do you think sentient beings should be protected from war? and cigarettes?

is a sentient beings body an inanimate object?

you dont think a women should do what she wants with her body....

I think i should be able to tell you want you can and cant do with yours,,

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
*To clarify, I disagree with abortion. Personally, I don't believe there are many occasions where it is warranted. Rape & incest certainly are. Mother's life in danger I believe valid. I also believe in certain circumstances that proof of major deformity or diseases that severely limit the quality of life of individuals *should* be legal. I have a lot of mentally handicapped folk in my family, so please don't make the conversation about the above. Otherwise as far as abortion is concerned...live with your choices. And I mean like 1st trimester only..none of this late term crap*

What it comes down to fundamentally, is that the government, nor anybody else for that matter, has a right to tell you what to do with your own body.

Now that's not to say that I don't think that men have no say. Of course, they have provided half the genetic material that makes up this child. At least pregnancies resulting from consensual sex from both partners, must be treated with equal legal rights.

But I will discuss this from a legal perspective.

You cannot legislate life. Legislating the lives of people is not the job of the government. Not when it comes to issues like these. It's just far too gray to make a black and white decision.

Sorry I guess my thoughts on this are all over the place today.

I guess what I'm saying is, I would prefer it not be legal other than issues outlined above, but I do also believe in personal freedom. I don't get to inject my personal morality unto society. Neither should anybody else.

~Tenth

I could have written this post myself - I feel EXACTLY the same way. I would personally never get an abortion just because it might be inconvenient timing, or because I knew I couldn't take care of it emotionally or financially. In those cases, I would have the baby and give it up for adoption. I MIGHT get an abortion if I had to choose between my life or the baby's, or in the case of rape, or in the case of the baby having SEVERE deformity (brain, heart, or other primary organ).

However, I just can't support laws that prohibit a woman from making this decision on her own, or with feedback from the father (except in the case of rape). Some women aren't willing to go through the risks of pregnancy if they know they don't want the child. I think that's their right.

I just don't believe that civil rights begin at conception. I believe they begin at birth.

As it stands the woman has the right to choose what happens with her body, this is an absolute fact. The woman can consider the father's feelings and opinions but ultimately it is the woman who has to make the final decision and she know's that because it is her own choice then she is completely and solely responsible for any possible consequences as a result of that choice (after all 'it's her body, her choice'). This is why it is a hard choice to make in the first place.

The man however has more rights than it is led to be believed (although he can't tell a woman what to do with her body). For example, if the man is completely against an abortion but the mother decides to go and have one anyway, the man have the right to leave the mother at the clinic and go home and kick out all of her stuff from their home if he so chooses. He does not have to be with the woman any longer if he doesn't want to, this is his absolute right.

As for the rights of the unborn child, i believe that an abortion should not be carried out after a certain length of time as a child can be fully formed human in the womb and may experience sensations such as pain, i've seen abortion videos were the baby is trying to move away from the needle being inserted into the womb.

I think we are a long way from really answering the question if an unborn child should have any rights.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by beezzer

That is your interpretation. You can't have life, liberty if you aren't born. Those rights are denied by the act of abortion.

The fact you believe a bunch of cells is a child - - is your interpretation.

Science has another interpretation.

If my "belief" is science based. I see you as interpreting from emotions of a personal belief.

I am not in anyway interested in your personal belief or interpretation.

And at one time, blacks were considered nothing but chattel. With education, people learned differently. With education, perhaps we will learn differently, as well, that it's not just a bunch of cells. Science has already learned more than we knew in 1973 about this "bunch of cells" as you call it. Education education education.

reply to post by beezzer


Beez - I think you and I share many views in common; however, this is not one of them.

Frankly, I score to the right of _________insert right leaning person here______ but the pro-life stance is where Republicans loose me.

While I would never say never - I would likely not choose to be a party to the decision to abort a pregnancy. There is one instance in which I would. If I knew the child would be born with some kind of serious birth defect.

It is not the right answer for everyone nor would I wish my thoughts to be forced on people but I know me, I know what I can deal with and what I cannot. That would be one of the things with which I could not deal nor would I voluntarily do so.

The choice to carry to term is clearly an emotional one for everyone involved. When two people's civil rights conflict as in this case even if one were to term a fetus a person with rights whose are more important?

So many conflicting rights issues in a pregnancy....

Does the mother have carry to term and then support emotionally and financially another person without any choice. If so that seems an awful lot like a life sentence of hard labor for a one time poor choice. Why should she have this forced upon her by the government?

If she does choose to give birth then give it to the state to raise it violates everyone in the state's civil rights as we had no choice in the matter but now bear the financial burden of her choice via taxation. Why should she be able to choose that?

If she aborts the pregnancy then she violates the rights of that being.

I think the decision here is purely a personal one and if the woman can find a doctor who can do it safely she and she alone bear the burden of that choice there is no resultant cost to society at large.

It keeps the government out of it but allows for the woman to choose to carry to term even if the resultant child will in almost all cases eventually become to some extent a burden to the rest of the taxpayers. However, I guess it lets her keep her conscience clear. I personally say - sterilize the serially irresponsible both male and female. We cannot support all the unwanted offspring just to keep everyone's conscience clear.

At some point this needs to be a practical rather than an emotional decision for both the government and the individal.

In this case I say allowing her the choice is the best of a long series of choices - none of which are ideal.

You being a leader in the military know sometimes the list of options available to us are horrible but a choice must still be made - in those cases we choose the one that seems to harm the fewest people or consume the least amount of resources. Least that the way I do it.

I know the issue matters a good deal to many people – but to me I say let’s keep the government out of procreation choices either for or against.

IMO the day we take away an individual’s reproductive choices in certain circumstances we will likely open ourselves up to government regulation of all of our reproductive choices.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
I would personally never get an abortion just because it might be inconvenient timing, or because I knew I couldn't take care of it emotionally or financially.

All my life I said the exact same thing - - - until . . . .

I spontaneously aborted by first pregnancy/child in the toilet at 4 months. Don't want to be too graphic - - but the fetus was there.

Within 4 years of that I had 2 daughters.

When my oldest daughter was 4 - - I chose to divorce my husband. He was jealous of his own children and they were beginning to suffer from it.

Divorce is very emotional and hard. My husband and I had a big cry fest that led to having sex. The next day I threw up (including the birth control pill). I was pregnant.

There was no way I was going to go back to this man who could not put his daughters before himself. I was a stay at home mom with no skills or education. And soon I would be a single mom raising two daughters.

What would you do? You really do not know until you face it.

I chose the welfare of my 2 living daughters. I had living - breathing "babies" to feed - clothe - educate - love and protect. I chose their Civil Rights.

It was one of the most difficult things I have ever done in my life.

Do I have any regrets? NONE

Would I make the same decision in the same circumstances again? ABSOLUTELY!

So when those self-righteous holier-then-thou come on here posting their sanctimonious rhetoric - - - I have no respect for them thinking they can control others lives because they believe a certain way.

It is a personal choice - - that sometimes unexpectedly has to be made. And EVERY woman deserves the right to make that choice.

As for men having no rights. Well - - as women have been told and forced to live with for ions: "Your fault for picking the wrong woman".

If you had picked the right woman - - she would consider your feelings in the matter. There are men today who are raising their child because they picked the right woman.

Divorce is very emotional and hard. My husband and I had a big cry fest that led to having sex. The next day I threw up (including the birth control pill). I was pregnant.

edit on 23-8-2012 by queenofswords because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by AnneeIt is a personal choice - - that sometimes unexpectedly has to be made. And EVERY woman deserves the right to make that choice.

I think this may be the first thing upon which we have ever agreed...

As I said, sometimes the choice has to be the practical one not the emotional one and as is often the case in a practical decision - someone is going to lose out. It’s clearly a case of doing the most good for the most people or even the least harm to the fewest people.

Either way - woman bears the burden of that choice. Whatever it is.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by AnneeIt is a personal choice - - that sometimes unexpectedly has to be made. And EVERY woman deserves the right to make that choice.

I think this may be the first thing upon which we have ever agreed...

As I said, sometimes the choice has to be the practical one not the emotional one and as is often the case in a practical decision - someone is going to lose out. It’s clearly a case of doing the most good for the most people or even the least harm to the fewest people.

Either way - woman bears the burden of that choice. Whatever it is.

Thanks. I think wink wink

I tell my story because it is a real experience.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by ImaFungi


I care about the unconscious animate matter which belongs to nature and god in and of everyones body... I am going to sue the people of the world and make sure they cannot eat fast food,, or smoke or drink,, because their bodies have rights too!! They should no longer be enslaved to masters who cannot properly think for themselves!!

I'm sure you know the difference between a sentient being and an inanimate object. Question: when did you become a sentient being and when do you think sentient beings should be protected?

do you think sentient beings should be protected from war? and cigarettes?

is a sentient beings body an inanimate object?

you dont think a women should do what she wants with her body....

I think i should be able to tell you want you can and cant do with yours,,

But therin lies the rub. If a baby is a human being, then the issue is not what someone wishes to do with their own body like all of the other issues. This is what is unique about this subject.

reply to post by beezzer


OMG beezer...I gave you a S&F. An issue we are on the same side on...I'm looking outside right now to see if pigs are flying around.

But in all seriousness, you are correct. No matter what pro-choice people want to say, an unborn child is still a human biological individual. It isn't a clump of cells, it isn't a parasite, it isn't a "potential human"...it is a biological human.

I like to use biology *gasp* to prove this point. The Human Life Cycle begins at the same time every other living beings life cycle starts at...at conception. At that point, a new human life has begun and will continue through the life cycle until it's death. Since it is a new human life, then by default it should be treated with the same respect and have the same rights all other humans enjoy.

There is no other time in the life cycle that brutal murder to an innocent human being is acceptable, why should we make an exception for the humans amongh us that are most vulnerable and innocent???



As a side note, the only way pro-choice people can argue against this is by using philosophy...which is exactly where the religion argument comes from that they hate so much. I/we argue science...they argue philosophy...how funny.

Originally posted by queenofswords
With education, perhaps we will learn differently, as well, that it's not just a bunch of cells. Science has already learned more than we knew in 1973 about this "bunch of cells" as you call it. Education education education.

NO.

It is a bunch of cells.

I don't know what education you are referring to.

Originally posted by Traydor

The man however has more rights than it is led to be believed (although he can't tell a woman what to do with her body). For example, if the man is completely against an abortion but the mother decides to go and have one anyway, the man have the right to leave the mother at the clinic and go home and kick out all of her stuff from their home if he so chooses. He does not have to be with the woman any longer if he doesn't want to, this is his absolute right.


I think we are a long way from really answering the question if an unborn child should have any rights.

edit on 23/8/2012 by Traydor because: (no reason given)

That's not quite true isn't it? If a man does not want to have the baby, and the woman refuses to abort it, he will be financially obligated to her for the next 18 years. No choice, but a lot of responsability.

A woman has a beautiful and unique task.....to be a vessel that carries a life.

I don't understand why a woman would choose to be less. If she doesn't want to nurture that life past the nine months of incubation, she can offer it up for adoption to someone who would adore it, care for it, and honor the gift.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by queenofswords
With education, perhaps we will learn differently, as well, that it's not just a bunch of cells. Science has already learned more than we knew in 1973 about this "bunch of cells" as you call it. Education education education.

NO.

It is a bunch of cells.

I don't know what education you are referring to.

I've quite a bit of education. What science has determined exactly when an individual human life is present and when did it determine the exact moment this happens?

You are a clump of cells. I am a clump of cells. The carrot I had for lunch is a clump of cells. At what point is said clump of cells deserving the title "life?"

Originally posted by NavyDoc

You are a clump of cells. I am a clump of cells. The carrot I had for lunch is a clump of cells. At what point is said clump of cells deserving the title "life?"

Personal belief seems to have a lot to do with that answer.

I've decided not to bring any personal belief into this discussion.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by queenofswords
With education, perhaps we will learn differently, as well, that it's not just a bunch of cells. Science has already learned more than we knew in 1973 about this "bunch of cells" as you call it. Education education education.

NO.

It is a bunch of cells.

I don't know what education you are referring to.

The education they are refering to is called BIOLOGY.

Human life cycle...look it up.