Abortion from a mans point of view

Originally posted by TempleCat

Whether it be an accidental pregnancy or the product of rape or incest, Nature dictates that the women has to carry the child within her body. She has to endure nausea, vomiting, risk of complications, and ultimately hours or even days of pain (and that's just the short list).

Women are not victims of their reproductive system. There are people who have to endure pain every day, not just for 9 months....yet many of them don't whine and claim that they are victims having their rights violated.

Men also have the ability to say "no" or to protect themselves if they do not want that responsibility or that situation to arise.

Women don't have the ability to say no or to ensure that they won't become responsible for a child?

They do not, however, have the right to force a woman to become a human incubator and risk her health and well being to produce them a child against her will.

Women who have consensual sex are not forced into taking the risk of becoming pregnant. Furthermore, if you think women shouldn't be 'forced' into taking responsibility for any children they may create, then there's no reason why a man should be 'forced' to become a paycheck.

Women are not property. You do not own a woman and you do not own her uterus. You do not "own" the child, either.

NO ONE is property. You do not own the child any more than the father and it's not up to you to decide if they should live or die.

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." - Edward Abbey

This statement can only be logical if women are assumed to be mentally incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions. It's not the government's job to ensure that unwanted consequences of one's actions not have to be dealt with. The extreme and absurd notion that a woman has a 'right' to abortion is just a case of repeating a claim over and over again until people begin to believe it.

reply to post by Charmed707


I think the problem here is that the Anti-Choice crowd doesn't trust women to make responsible choices -This is a sad thing. They then want the government to make the choice for her - That is a dangerous thing. The majority of women were already being responsible. Everyone knows that women can get pregnant while on birth control. Nothing is 100% effective. (not even abstinence. Bristol Palin taught us that.) So if the pill doesn't work, the condom breaks, or any other method fails then the woman has to ultimately make the decision concerning her body, her future, how dependable the father is (is he abusive?), and what is best for the child. She may decide on the morning after pill (which can also fail), abortion, adoption (over 700,000 US kids already in foster care right now, though. According to the last stats I saw.), or parenthood. Very few women use abortion as their sole form of birth control.

As long as the fetus is in her body she does own it. Because she owns herself. Anyone who understands biology understands why that is. Once the child is born then both parents usually have equal claim to parent that child. Ultimately it is usually the woman who ends up taking the brunt of responsibility. Fortunately there are some fathers who step up and become single parent dads with physical or sole custody. I know a few myself.

To say that a man can lay claim of ownership to a fetus attached to the body of a woman is just barbaric in my opinion. As I said, forced incubation. Her body would become no longer her own. That would lead to all kinds of no good - intentional impregnation, coercion, black market deals, abuse, back alley clinics, suicides, etc... Human rights would fly out the window. Pro-life isn't really as pro-life as they like to appear.

reply to post by Charmed707

...because she had absolutely nothing to do with the state of her body in the first place?

You think she has control over her bodily function? How so?

Along with freedom comes responsibility. It's not the job of the government to ensure that anyone has a 'right' to avoid the consequences of their actions.

We aren't asking the government to ensure our rights to avoid consequences, but to butt out of what is non of their business and let us make our own decisions with the help of our doctors.. We don't need government approval, intervention, or counseling. The law (Roe V Wade) is fine the way it is.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


If a woman is raped... I guess abortion is understandable...

When a woman chooses to have abortion for other reasons like birth control, or lack of planning , its murder. Then she has blood on her hands. The blood of an innocent.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


pro-murder? hows that sound? nice ring to it.

reply to post by Heresy


maybe she should keep her P***y in her pants?

reply to post by davidsander


If pro-choice is pro-murder then you guys are pro-slavery.

Sad but true.

Originally posted by TempleCat

I think the problem here is that the Anti-Choice crowd doesn't trust women to make responsible choices

Pro-lifers don't condone the killing of the innocent unborn. If you end up with an 'unwanted' pregnancy, then you weren't responsible to begin with, unless you were raped.

This is a sad thing. They then want the government to make the choice for her

When you make choices, there are consequences. Choosing to have sex while fertile is taking the risk of creating a human life to be responsible for. The government took no part in impregnating her. A woman who gets pregnant as a result of consensual sex is not an innocent bystander of circumstances. She's directly responsible for the life existing inside of her- a life which should be protected. A woman facing the natural consequences of her actions is NOT a victim- any way you slice it.

That is a dangerous thing.

Treating people like victims just because they are unhappy with the situations they created for themselves is dangerous. Saying that it's a right to avoid the consequences of your actions is dangerous. Condoning and allowing the murder of innocent human beings is overwhelmingly dangerous.

Everyone knows that women can get pregnant while on birth control.

That's why there is no good excuse for abortion when the pregnancy resulted from consensual sex and the mother's life is not in danger.

not even abstinence. Bristol Palin taught us that.

Bristol Palin didn't abstain.

So if the pill doesn't work, the condom breaks, or any other method fails then the woman has to ultimately make the decision concerning her body, her future, how dependable the father is (is he abusive?)

Abortion is NOT an issue that merely affects a woman's 'body' and her future. We can see concrete proof of that in China and other areas where there are millions of missing girls. Why should a father even have to be 'dependable' if the birth of a child is a mere result of the woman's choice?

As long as the fetus is in her body she does own it.

No she doesn't. Individuals are created at conception. A fetus is a genetically seperate human being with rights of their own. Fetuses are not any less the child of the father than the mother-not at any stage of development. I'm not any less my father's daughter now than I was in my mother's womb. Genetics are what determines parenthood- not location. Do you not think Siamese twins are two different people?

Because she owns herself.

Your child is not you.

Ultimately it is usually the woman who ends up taking the brunt of responsibility. Fortunately there are some fathers who step up and become single parent dads with physical or sole custody. I know a few myself.

Why should fathers in this day and age feel obligated to any children, which are now just defined as results of a 'woman's choice'...?

To say that a man can lay claim of ownership to a fetus attached to the body of a woman is just barbaric in my opinion.

To say that it's a woman's right to lay claim over the life of her child with no regard to how their other family members feel about it is the very definition of barbaric.

As I said, forced incubation.

No woman who consents to sex is forced into pregnancy. Give up that tired and inaccurate talking point.

Her body would become no longer her own.

Parenting involves sacrifices....change of lifestyle, giving up 'me' time, financial sacrifices, etc. How DARE a child rely on their mother for sustenance.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


I don't understand your pro-slavery comment? would you elaborate please?

Originally posted by windword

You think she has control over her bodily function? How so?

So you think women have absoluetly no control over whether they become pregnant or not? What a high opinion of women you have.

Some of the women on this thread would do well to show a little couth. Generalizing any man who has sex with a woman as "Mr. Spooge" or "some guy leaking his fluid" well lets face it ladies, you slept with Mr. Spooge and let him leak his fluids in you. Doesn't show much more self control or intelligence on your part.

reply to post by davidsander


Well gee, You make abortions illegal you are forcing the woman to give birth. That's making her a slave to her biology

You claim you aren't but that is really what you're doing.

But it's okay to force a woman to give birth because it's all for the greater glory of Gawd!

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone

Well gee, You make abortions illegal you are forcing the woman to give birth.

Stop with the victim rhetoric. A woman is never forced into pregnancy in the first place, unless she is raped. If women shouldn't be 'forced' into parenthood, then men shouldn't be forced into paying child support.

That's making her a slave to her biology

That's seriously one of the most asinine comments I've ever read on ATS. Women are victims of their biology? Are you one of those people who thinks menstruation is a 'curse'?

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by davidsander

 

Well gee, You make abortions illegal you are forcing the woman to give birth. That's making her a slave to her biology

You claim you aren't but that is really what you're doing.

But it's okay to force a woman to give birth because it's all for the greater glory of Gawd!

We are all "slaves" to our biology, man or woman. If a woman mates, she can become pregnant. If she becomes pregnant that is a part of nature, like all mamals. But human females are special and should be allowed to murder a child? God has nothing to do with it, I am agnostic, and I believe all life has the right to live.

reply to post by davidsander

A woman is never forced into pregnancy in the first place,

Sex, pregnancy, and giving birth are three different things. You can make a bs semantic argument all you want, but it is wrong to force a woman to give birth, regardless of how one does it.

And actually, yes, there are some places in the world where there are baby factories. Here's one example:

(Newser) – Nigerian police have rescued 32 pregnant girls aged 15 to 17 from what they termed a “baby factory” in the southern city of Aba. Police allege that the women who went to the Cross Foundation clinic were forced to sell their babies for around $170 to $190. The hospital’s owner, Dr. Hyacinth Orikara, would then allegedly either sell them off for use in occult rituals or as slaves, or put them up for adoption illegally.

Orikara denies the allegations, saying he runs a clinic to help teens with unwanted pregnancies, according to local sources cited by the New York Daily News. But such baby factories are common across West Africa, the newspaper notes. According to Unicef, at least 10 children are sold daily in Nigeria alone, adds the BBC.

www.newser.com...

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


copy and paste all you want. Another member on this thread has already established that 93% of all abortions are "Casual" abortions. Meaning non life threatening , and no extenuating circumstances like rape. Abortion in the manner we are talking about is a bi-product of loose morals and a cavalier attitude toward life. "Mr. Splooge blew his load in me, now im having second thoughts." Well thats what happens when your a hussy and give it up too easy. If people had more respect for themselves and others, they would find a partner to be with and there would be a courting process, where the families of both people would meet and there would be a level of dignity to the whole process. This whole western mentality of, "I gotta shop around to find me a man, gotta let him stick it in me, to find out if he is right for me." No honey, thats called being a whore.

reply to post by davidsander


Yes, I've heard that a lot from the womb police. And i still say, so what? Who are you to impose your morals on to people who aren't the same as you?

You don't have any right to do so.


And I have nothing further to say to you. You won't convince me and I certainly won't convince you, so the only thing I can do is vote against any pro-slavery legislation you guys cook up.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone

Who are you to impose your morals on to people who aren't the same as you?

....coming from someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to play the role of executioner over your unborn child.

Originally posted by Charmed707

Originally posted by windword

You think she has control over her bodily function? How so?

So you think women have absoluetly no control over whether they become pregnant or not? What a high opinion of women you have.

Bodily functions are not regulated or controlled by a women. Women can become pregnant anytime. The rhythm method doesn't work. I don't think you really understand biology if you think differently.

Sex isn't usually about procreation any more. How many children do you think average woman has, 1, 2, 3? How many times do you think she's going to have sex during the fertile period of her life? A lot more than 3 times, and she's not banking on an unwanted baby!

So, when you demand that women "take responsibility" you really mean that they should be "victims" to their bodily function. They have to suck it up, because that's the price they pay for having sex. Because to you, pregnancy is the "punishment" for having sex when she didn't want to have a child.

Forcing a woman who doesn't wan't a child to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term amounts to tyranny and slavery.

First, let me apologize to those reading. This is going to be long. When I got my degree in the medical administrative field I focused a lot on women's health and did my practicum at a pro-choice organization. I talked to a lot of women and did a lot of research. I have other reasons that I may go into at a later date as to why women's reproductive rights is so important to me. For now, I will just warn you that I'm going to try to be thorough.

Originally posted by Charmed707
Pro-lifers don't condone the killing of the innocent unborn. If you end up with an 'unwanted' pregnancy, then you weren't responsible to begin with, unless you were raped.

Innocent unborn what? The unborn fertilized egg? The zygote? The embryo? Is this your excuse for forced incubation? Are a few cells really more important to the Anti-Choice crowd than all else? Most Anti-Choice people don't even believe in welfare or assistance to help support the children they want forced into this world. According to the most current AFCARS (Adoption and Foster Care Analysis and Reporting System Report) Report, released in July 2012, there were approximately 400,540 children in the U. S. in foster care on September 30, 2011. SOURCE If they care so much why aren't they adopting these children instead of butting their noses into other people's right to choose? Once a woman gives birth they wash their hands of the situation. Mission accomplished. Welcome to poverty, abuse, neglect, and the foster care system. Happy birthday!

Let me reiterate - using birth control IS responsible to begin with. It's used to prevent pregnancy. It's part of a little something called "Family Planning". When you aren't ready for a family you take precautions. When those precautions fail you then you make the decision of what's best. Both decisions are being responsible. Taking away another woman's right to be responsible, to make those life changing choices, isn't the answer.

When you make choices, there are consequences. Choosing to have sex while fertile is taking the risk of creating a human life to be responsible for. The government took no part in impregnating her. A woman who gets pregnant as a result of consensual sex is not an innocent bystander of circumstances. She's directly responsible for the life existing inside of her- a life which should be protected. A woman facing the natural consequences of her actions is NOT a victim- any way you slice it.

Any way you slice it, you're ignoring the fact that she was already acting responsible when she used birth control. The government took no part in her and her partner's intercourse and the government should take no part in controlling the outcome. Her body - Her choice. Not the government. Not anyone else's. Many, many women really are innocent bystanders when it comes to protecting themselves and then having that protection fail.

Diaphragms: 14 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Cervical caps: 16 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Leah's shield: 15 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
The Combination Pill: 8 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Male condoms: 15 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Female condoms: 21 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Contraceptive Implant: less than one out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Contraceptive Patch: 8 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Depo-Provera: 8 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Fertility Awareness: 20 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
IUD: less than one out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Minipills: 10 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Spermicide: 29 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
The Sponge: 16 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Vaginal Ring: 8 out of every 100 women will become pregnant
Withdarwal: 27 out of every 100 women will become pregnant

SOURCE

My stance is that instead of trying to control what another human being does with their own body the Anti-Choice crowd should focus all their energy on better birth control, better education, and better free access to both. The way to make abortion only necessary in cases of rape, incest, or life threatening circumstances is to lessen the chance of pregnancy. What the Anti-Choice crowd does is INCREASE the chances of pregnancy and therefore INCREASE abortion. They are their own worst enemy.

(Continued)