Anyone else worried about Göbekli Tepe?

Originally posted by GezinhoKiko
just a quick video for everyone

Thanks for the video.

Originally posted by InherentDistrust
Here's another perspective on the site.

Archaeologist argues world's oldest temples were not temples at all

Ancient structures uncovered in Turkey and thought to be the world's oldest temples may not have been strictly religious buildings after all, according to an article in the October issue of Current Anthropology. Archaeologist Ted Banning of the University of Toronto argues that the buildings found at Göbekli Tepe may have been houses for people, not the gods.

The buildings at Göbekli, a hilltop just outside of the Turkish city of Urfa, were found in 1995 by Klaus Schmidt of the German Archaeological Institute and colleagues from the Şanlıurfa Museum in Turkey. The oldest of the structures at the site are immense buildings with large stone pillars, many of which feature carvings of snakes, scorpions, foxes, and other animals.

The presence of art in the buildings, the substantial effort that must have been involved in making and erecting them, and a lack of evidence for any permanent settlement in the area, led Schmidt and others to conclude that Göbekli must have been a sacred place where pilgrims traveled to worship, much like the Greek ruins of Delphi or Olympia. If that interpretation is true it would make the buildings, which date back more than 10,000 years to the early Neolithic, the oldest temples ever found.

However, Banning offers an alternative interpretation that challenges some of Schmidt's claims.

He outlines growing archaeological evidence for daily activities at the site, such as flintknapping and food preparation. "The presence of this evidence suggests that the site was not, after all, devoid of residential occupation, but likely had quite a large population," Banning said.

Banning goes on to argue that the population may have been housed in the purported temples themselves. He disagrees with the idea that the presence of decorative pillars or massive construction efforts means the buildings could not have been residential space.

"The presupposition that 'art,' or even 'monumental' art, should be exclusively associated with specialized shrines or other non-domestic spaces also fails to withstand scrutiny," Banning writes. "There is abundant ethnographic evidence for considerable investment in the decoration of domestic structures and spaces, whether to commemorate the feats of ancestors, advertise a lineage's history or a chief's generosity; or record initiations and other house-based rituals."

Archaeological evidence for domestic art from the Neolithic period exists as well, Banning says, such as the wall paintings at Çatalhöyük, another archaeological site in Turkey.

Banning suggests that the purported temples may instead have been large communal houses, "similar in some ways to the large plank houses of the Northwest Coast of North America with their impressive house posts and totem poles."

press.uchicago.edu...

I don't know much on 10,000 year old activities, but I think we're far from learning the whole story. There's more digging to do in more ways than one

Thanks for the added ideas on the site...I tend to go in that direction of thought. It must have been more than what they see so far.

"Next nugget: I have a hard time believing Man went from creating cave art and a hunter/gatherer culture to Sumerian culture and art in a few short generations. Call me a cynic.

Bottom line from ME: I don't think the group of folks that print science books for our kids to read have a CLUE what they are talking about. I think there is an implied place where it is thot that discoveries should fit, and information is found to Prove or Disprove. And hands are brushed off and careers are saved by making safe theories that don't rock the boat too much.

"


Those are good points. And not to get off topic and I don't think this is what you are implying but have you ever heard of a theory that there is a huge chunk of time/history missing in the calendar or dates of history? It always seemed like a neat idea and really could answer some vexing questions.

Originally posted by gostr
These people could lift and move around huge stones and carve them to suit, yet, they had no knowledge of pottery or metals? ...

What annoys me most about us "modern" people is that we think our ancestors were walking around throwing poop at each other.

Think about it this way.

You are told the world is going to end in 6 months. Sure, a couple thousand will survive, but other than that, you, me, we, are all dead guaranteed. Now, you know SOME will survive, what is the best material you can use to say, "I WAS HERE GOD DAMNIT!" ...?

Stone.

Whats the shelf life of a modern building? 150 years... 200 years until its a pile of rubble tops. Sure you could make a giant metal structure to say we were here, but will it last long enough for people to find it and debate its origin? nope. it'll be gone long before we come out of the caves.

Look at the pyramids, well THE pyramid. what better way to say, we were here, and we were just as smart as you. It wont collapse, it wont rust, it wont turn to carbon, that is THE best material to use if a catastrophe is coming and you want to leave something behind. Just because someone makes something out of stone does not mean they are poop throwers.

Thats how I see it.

This ancient aliens bull# is just to misdirect.

Just my opinion.

edit on 30-8-2012 by gostr because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by gostr These people could lift and move around huge stones and carve them to suit, yet, they had no knowledge of pottery or metals? ...

What annoys me most about us "modern" people is that we think our ancestors were walking around throwing poop at each other. Think about it this way. You are told the world is going to end in 6 months. Sure, a couple thousand will survive, but other than that, you, me, we, are all dead guaranteed. Now, you know SOME will survive, what is the best material you can use to say, "I WAS HERE GOD DAMNIT!" ...? Stone. Whats the shelf life of a modern building? 150 years... 200 years until its a pile of rubble tops. Sure you could make a giant metal structure to say we were here, but will it last long enough for people to find it and debate its origin? nope. it'll be gone long before we come out of the caves. Look at the pyramids, well THE pyramid. what better way to say, we were here, and we were just as smart as you. It wont collapse, it wont rust, it wont turn to carbon, that is THE best material to use if a catastrophe is coming and you want to leave something behind. Just because someone makes something out of stone does not mean they are poop throwers. Thats how I see it. This ancient aliens bull# is just to misdirect. Just my opinion.

edit on 30-8-2012 by gostr because: (no reason given)

Wow, I never thought of it that way. I always see stone works as sort of backwards, like the Flintstones or something, but that makes tons of sense.

I'd like to have an easy to understand chronological listing of what the current understanding of the rise to civilization ... like if GBT was pre-pottery as they say it is, then does that mean that it was before the wheel and use of fire too?? I tried to study Sumer and the Summarians but my eyes start to glaze over. I know that it is the key or start point to most of what we call civilization, like written words/language, numbers, etc.

Originally posted by MadDuchess
I find the animal carvings the most interesting. If this is a temple what were the reasons for the animals carvings, especiallyy the animals that are not indigenous to the area. What do y'all think?

Good question.
I don't know too much about the worship of animals but I thinks it's called "zoolatry". I think the people calling this site a "temple" think they use the carvings of animals as sort of deities maybe...I don't know.
en.wikipedia.org...

The one point I get from all the animal carvings they ID'ed at the site is that they don't see any domesticated animals represented like cats...thus it's a corroboration that the dating of the site is close to correct.

archaeology.about.com...

Good question.
I don't know too much about the worship of animals but I thinks it's called "zoolatry". I think the people calling this site a "temple" think they use the carvings of animals as sort of deities maybe...I don't know.
en.wikipedia.org...

The one point I get from all the animal carvings they ID'ed at the site is that they don't see any domesticated animals represented like cats...thus it's a corroboration that the dating of the site is close to correct.

archaeology.about.com...

Sorry I meant to quote the above, but I pressed the wrong button. The other night I was watching the history channel and they just happened to be discussing Gobekli Tepe. A theory was proposed that involved the idea of Noah's Ark and the Flood and the fact that Gobekli Tepe is close to Mt.Ararat(I Don't mean down the street close). I found it quite intriguing. I truly believe at some point in early history there was a devastating flood, that wiped out many people and civilizations. Though I don't think it was global, focused in the Middle East and Mediterranean.Most civilizations, especially 'cradle" civilizations have a central flood story. The history channel show put forward that perhaps this was a place that celebrated the animals that were saved from the flood or the collection that took place. Of course we are getting into what many call psuedoarchaeology, but I think there is much we don't know about early civilizations. I mean Historians are always saying this place was the first, the oldest, we aren't going to find anybody earlier, especially with better technology. Then Ancient Egypt, Minoans, etc. And many times, these places have technology and architecture that is almost unbelievable. Some animals should not be on the pillars at Gobekli Tepe because they are not indigenous, just like at Puma Puku(sp?) stone masons have marveled at the stonework there stating that it should have been basically impossible to do that kind of work with the tools that historians/archaeologist say these people were using. We have to keep asking questions and demand answers!!! Show them that we are not going to continue to believe lies and excuses. (Weather ballons and Swamp Gas, really?!)

Originally posted by MadDuchess
Some animals should not be on the pillars at Gobekli Tepe because they are not indigenous, just like at Puma Puku(sp?) stone masons have marveled at the stonework there stating that it should have been basically impossible to do that kind of work with the tools that historians/archaeologist say these people were using. We have to keep asking questions and demand answers!!! Show them that we are not going to continue to believe lies and excuses. (Weather ballons and Swamp Gas, really?!)

Wow, that's cool about having out of place animal carvings...I never caught that. Could you link to a video, source or artical where they talk about it? Thanks.

Why are the animals carvings considered out of place? Central Asia Minor was a lush place when GT was constructed - compared to what it is now, and had a much wider range of fauna then.

Originally posted by OzTiger
reply to post by butterflyowl

 

Gobekli Tepe is something that was built way before 'God created the heavens and the earth' so obviously poses a problem to those with strong religious beliefs.

To most of them their religion is their rock, their faith, their belief and everything they live for and places like Gobekli Tepe are disturbing to them.

I find your comments interesting. I am a committed Christian and find absolutely nothing disturbing about the site...

Although I have a healthy skepticism about archaeological dating techniques, I in no way presuppose that I understand even a minor portion of His creation. This will all work itself out in the end.

In the meantime, this is really intriguing to look at and imagine what it must have been like back in the day... Just so long as we remember that we are imagining.

RIP Klaus Schmidt
I'll write a note on my blog soon.
Pre Civlilization Rocks

originally posted by: butterflyowl
RIP Klaus Schmidt
I'll write a note on my blog soon.
Pre Civlilization Rocks

Yes his unexpected death last week will probably slow down the study of the site. It's always a set back to lose the lead archaeologist on an unfinished excavation. Not sure who at the DAI will take over the site.

His obi

Obi

Some updated information on the site

C14 dates

Gobelki Tepe 2014 newsletter

Link to newsletter

Thanks much. I thought that his passing would be bad for the site. Bummer.

BTW, Could you or anyone else interpret this info? Like to a teenager's level? I have a real hard time with numbers.

Like 9th millennium is X years ago.....i'm thinking it means 11,000 years ago, is this right? (9,000 + 2014)?

Text "In conclusion, charcoal samples suggest that the refilling and “burial” of the big enclosures began in the late 10th and early 9th millennium, while KIA 44149 from the wall plaster of enclosure D indicates building activities in the early PPNA."

a reply to: butterflyowl

Yep!