Breaking Australia's silence: WikiLeaks and freedom

If you're interested in digging a little deeper into the Julia Assange and Wikileaks issue then you might find this helpful. That was my intent really, to dig a little deeper to try and get a handle on the importance of Wikileaks and why such a huge effort is being made to get him into a dark hole somewhere in the USA. I mean, It's such a huge conspiracy when you really think about it. The numbers of people involved in trying to make his extradition happen is mind boggling. And the cover story for this massive conspiracy? well there isn't one really is there? So he had sex without a condom with two willing females. Why oh why Mr Haig are you so keen to get him to face justice for such an intolerable crime? Having consensual sex without a condom is not a crime in the UK so why should Mr "12 pints a night in my college days" be so concerned?

Anyway, I'm rambling on here so I'll get to the point. I stumbled on this video and 'boy oh boy' did this blow my head off. There are some really clever people at this convention who may educate you (or may not depending on how wise you are) They bring the issues of 'contempt for the presumption of innocence' (the whole issue of governments spying on us) and the 'hypocrisy of the political class' trying desperately to stifle free speech together in a clear and coherent way.

Enjoy!

vimeo.com...

The sex without a condom wasn't in America It's funny how people forget this fact. Btw this video is a year old.

reply to post by buster2010


Reading it - it looks to me like he was just making an addition to his overall point.

reply to post by buster2010


Are you sure it's a year old? Has Bradley Manning been locked up for a year?

reply to post by robbo961

Originally posted by robbo961
reply to post by buster2010

 

Are you sure it's a year old? Has Bradley Manning been locked up for a year?

Little Bradley Manning started his journey to justice in July of 2010.... He's been in lockup quite some time now. Hopefully...he's got a few decades to go.

Interesting OP about Assange... He's what I consider a reporter...credentials or not...and did little more than several major media outlets on the same story...at least until they declared war on him. Heck, I'm rooting for him. I hope he gets into Ecuador and manages to vanish from there.

Correction... He was arrested in May of 2010... July 2010 was when he got some of his more serious charges.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by robbo961
reply to post by buster2010

 

Are you sure it's a year old? Has Bradley Manning been locked up for a year?

Little Bradley Manning started his journey to justice in July of 2010.... He's been in lockup quite some time now. Hopefully...he's got a few decades to go.

Why, because the guy showed the world what an evil and corrupt government you have? (We have always known, but the actual proof is better)

No, free Manning and give him a Nobel peace prize and do not allow secrets – an open and transparent government is the only way.

We elect them - they work for us, we do not elect them under the pretext that they can do what they like without our knowledge or consent.

Mickierocksman

Originally posted by Mickierocksman

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by robbo961
reply to post by buster2010

 

Are you sure it's a year old? Has Bradley Manning been locked up for a year?

Little Bradley Manning started his journey to justice in July of 2010.... He's been in lockup quite some time now. Hopefully...he's got a few decades to go.

Why, because the guy showed the world what an evil and corrupt government you have? (We have always known, but the actual proof is better)

No, free Manning and give him a Nobel peace prize and do not allow secrets – an open and transparent government is the only way.

We elect them - they work for us, we do not elect them under the pretext that they can do what they like without our knowledge or consent.

Mickierocksman

The kid took an oath. It wasn't a suggestion, it wasn't casual and it wasn't negotiable. He stood, raised his hand and swore an oath to his Nation, himself and his service. The first being the foremost. He violated that oath with such reckless abandon that he literally couldn't have known if he'd get people killed or not. That is the difference.

A man, like Daniel Ellsberg, would do his thing, release what his conscious told him must be brought to light and stand, like a man, for what he'd done in deep conviction.

Manning released more material in a vomit of classified data than entire staffs of people could get through with months of time to do it in. He could have had NO idea what all he was releasing and didn't care. He just spewed it like a kid the morning after a drunken bender. ....Then hid out like the coward he is, until tracked down and drug out into the bright light of day.

........Assange, by contrast, chose to report material of this nature for a living and no one had much problem with him until he got the material to really anger the wrong people in power. One needs the fate of a Traitor. The other, I'd like to see get awards for the courage it took.

(Assange never hid who he was or what he did.)

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by Mickierocksman

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by robbo961
reply to post by buster2010

 

Are you sure it's a year old? Has Bradley Manning been locked up for a year?

Little Bradley Manning started his journey to justice in July of 2010.... He's been in lockup quite some time now. Hopefully...he's got a few decades to go.

Why, because the guy showed the world what an evil and corrupt government you have? (We have always known, but the actual proof is better)

No, free Manning and give him a Nobel peace prize and do not allow secrets – an open and transparent government is the only way.

We elect them - they work for us, we do not elect them under the pretext that they can do what they like without our knowledge or consent.

Mickierocksman

The kid took an oath. It wasn't a suggestion, it wasn't casual and it wasn't negotiable. He stood, raised his hand and swore an oath to his Nation, himself and his service. The first being the foremost. He violated that oath with such reckless abandon that he literally couldn't have known if he'd get people killed or not. That is the difference.

A man, like Daniel Ellsberg, would do his thing, release what his conscious told him must be brought to light and stand, like a man, for what he'd done in deep conviction.

Manning released more material in a vomit of classified data than entire staffs of people could get through with months of time to do it in. He could have had NO idea what all he was releasing and didn't care. He just spewed it like a kid the morning after a drunken bender. ....Then hid out like the coward he is, until tracked down and drug out into the bright light of day.

........Assange, by contrast, chose to report material of this nature for a living and no one had much problem with him until he got the material to really anger the wrong people in power. One needs the fate of a Traitor. The other, I'd like to see get awards for the courage it took.

(Assange never hid who he was or what he did.)

The greater good of the world and its people outweigh any oath.

The people of the world need to know exactly how the US government shamefully conducts itself and the criminal actions taken by a government that is out of control must be known.

I and millions of people around the world thank Manning for bringing to us the evidence that has truthfully exposed who the real terrorists are.

The American people and that of the rest of the world need to stop your government from destroying anything more.

The more truth that is exposed, the more people will demand that they stop their inhumane and immoral actions.

Mickierocksman

reply to post by Mickierocksman

That greater good argument makes me shudder. It truly does. More evil has been committed under the banner of good intentions and the greater good than can be properly described. Often, I believe the intentions are sincere, too. The outcomes, entirely unforeseen by those who started events on a given example.

In this case, folks are welcome to see Manning as a Hero. I've made my feelings clear, but it's all personal judgement and values on this, when the violation of law and Oath itself are set aside as being enough by themselves.

The fact is, Manning might well be something of a Folk Hero to many people, but let that Folk Hero stand with the strength of his convictions for the consequences of his actions. It's really the suggestion that all he did should be simply forgotten and forgiven that I find hard to take. The violation of law and oath isn't opinion, it's plain law that he knew and willfully violated to the maximum extent physically possible...as a literal statement in this case.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Mickierocksman

 

That greater good argument makes me shudder. It truly does. More evil has been committed under the banner of good intentions and the greater good than can be properly described. Often, I believe the intentions are sincere, too. The outcomes, entirely unforeseen by those who started events on a given example.

In this case, folks are welcome to see Manning as a Hero. I've made my feelings clear, but it's all personal judgement and values on this, when the violation of law and Oath itself are set aside as being enough by themselves.

The fact is, Manning might well be something of a Folk Hero to many people, but let that Folk Hero stand with the strength of his convictions for the consequences of his actions. It's really the suggestion that all he did should be simply forgotten and forgiven that I find hard to take. The violation of law and oath isn't opinion, it's plain law that he knew and willfully violated to the maximum extent physically possible...as a literal statement in this case.

Without the greater good of the people of the world in mind, then our species is doomed to extinction.

We are slightly intelligent mammals but also incredibly stupid animals that cannot stop killing each other, we will never be a type 1 civilization, we are simply too irresponsible.

Manning has been in custody for over 900 days, solitary confinement, tortured and abused human rights.

He is not capable of standing with any strength nor state his convictions for the actions he took after this type of abuse.

If he does get a chance to stand up in court or tell the people of the world why he did what he did (which they will never allow to happen) and stated that he released the information because the American government is committing war crimes (for example) that would be silenced.

His actions speak louder than words to those that wish to hear them, but if you do want to understand his convictions or why, then I will let Manning tell you (below)

(12:15:11 PM) bradass87: If you had free reign [sic] over classified networks for long periods of time ... say, 8–9 months ... and you saw incredible things, awful things ... things that belonged in the public domain, and not on some server stored in a dark room in Washington DC ... what would you do? [...]

My question to you, do you think the American blubberment is without fault? Do you think that they should get away with the crimes that they are committing throughout the world in the ‘war on terror’ without punishment for these actions?

The people need to know….. Manning and Assanage made that happen and it should be happening more often so we can keep them honest and only allow them to do what the people actually want.

Mickierocksman

reply to post by Mickierocksman


Well, in order of points you are making....

First, your describing the hard conditions in confinement for a man I'm quite frankly sorry has lived this long and ought to die by whatever means the law prescribes under the Treason laws he knew and broke. Of course, it's been a few decades since Treason meant much more than a term in a law book, so I won't get my wish. He wants out though...I'm am 100% totally confident he'll never get his wish, either. So I'm good with that.

His motives are of absolutely no concern to me. 3 factors make him forfeit to the life he still has left him, in my view.

1. He didn't release what he objected to. He released everything he could effectively download, blindly, from the entire military and government network he had any access to download from. Somewhere in there could have been details of his OWN BASE and all the enemy would have needed to over-run it and wipe out the very people who looked at him every morning and said hello, thinking he was a fellow Soldier, friend and man they could trust. He couldn't have known and didn't care. Out the door it went..by the Gigabyte.

2. He didn't care to tell anyone his motives and he didn't care to stand for his great moral outrage. He literally opened the flood gates to the whole universe of classified intelligence he could get....then he hid. He put effort into hiding, in fact and had to be hunted down. Those aren't the actions of a man in the midst of moral outrage. Those are the actions of a coward and a traitor.

3. The damage #1 did is incalculable. It isn't JUST about Military things or specific actions we all found far over the line which that material exposed. It was EVERYTHING. He didn't even limit the extreme damage to just the United States and our diplomatic position for years and perhaps much longer. He burned every nation and leader who even TALKED to us and had that mentioned in Classified State Department cables back to whoever Secretary of State was at the time it was written.

The world is on the edge of World War and nations are ALL looking at each other like it's high noon at the OK Corral. Maybe Manning had nothing to do with that, when his treason destroyed trust between nations. Maybe it had quite a bit. It's impossible for us to ever know.....but he's earned NO benefit of any doubt.

As a side note, that material he released had a great number of names and personal details to figure out names of assets and agents who worked with the U.S. AND our allies. To think no one died as a DIRECT result of what he released is silly...even if a list of names, absolute certain, may never be available to quantify it.

Finally, you lump Julian Assange and Manning together. I think that's a major mistake beyond the fact the USG has a personal grudge of epic proportions against them both. In every other way, there is no comparison. Assange broke NO LAW...Trust...Oath...or confidence in people who trusted him with their lives. In fact, this was his chosen profession, such that it was. He was wide open, straight forward and determined in his actions, while Manning hid in the shadows and squeaked, like the Rat he is.

My question to you, do you think the American blubberment is without fault? Do you think that they should get away with the crimes that they are committing throughout the world in the ‘war on terror’ without punishment for these actions?

No.. The American Government isn't without fault...Oh...by no means even as a joke can that be said. No, they shouldn't get away with the things they've done and that's just what we know about. However, you see Manning as a part of a solution and I see him as an example or the moral bankruptcy and outright lack of human decency that brought our Government to the level it now is. Men with NO character are what run the system you hate so, and he's got FAR more in common with them than he's ever had with a man like Assange.

In my humble opinion. (Oh..and sorry I hadn't starred your posts before..this has been an unusually interesting give and take on what normally becomes Hateville and personal inside a post or two )

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Mickierocksman

 

Well, in order of points you are making....

First, your describing the hard conditions in confinement for a man I'm quite frankly sorry has lived this long and ought to die by whatever means the law prescribes under the Treason laws he knew and broke. Of course, it's been a few decades since Treason meant much more than a term in a law book, so I won't get my wish. He wants out though...I'm am 100% totally confident he'll never get his wish, either. So I'm good with that.

His motives are of absolutely no concern to me. 3 factors make him forfeit to the life he still has left him, in my view.

1. He didn't release what he objected to. He released everything he could effectively download, blindly, from the entire military and government network he had any access to download from. Somewhere in there could have been details of his OWN BASE and all the enemy would have needed to over-run it and wipe out the very people who looked at him every morning and said hello, thinking he was a fellow Soldier, friend and man they could trust. He couldn't have known and didn't care. Out the door it went..by the Gigabyte.

2. He didn't care to tell anyone his motives and he didn't care to stand for his great moral outrage. He literally opened the flood gates to the whole universe of classified intelligence he could get....then he hid. He put effort into hiding, in fact and had to be hunted down. Those aren't the actions of a man in the midst of moral outrage. Those are the actions of a coward and a traitor.

3. The damage #1 did is incalculable. It isn't JUST about Military things or specific actions we all found far over the line which that material exposed. It was EVERYTHING. He didn't even limit the extreme damage to just the United States and our diplomatic position for years and perhaps much longer. He burned every nation and leader who even TALKED to us and had that mentioned in Classified State Department cables back to whoever Secretary of State was at the time it was written.

The world is on the edge of World War and nations are ALL looking at each other like it's high noon at the OK Corral. Maybe Manning had nothing to do with that, when his treason destroyed trust between nations. Maybe it had quite a bit. It's impossible for us to ever know.....but he's earned NO benefit of any doubt.

As a side note, that material he released had a great number of names and personal details to figure out names of assets and agents who worked with the U.S. AND our allies. To think no one died as a DIRECT result of what he released is silly...even if a list of names, absolute certain, may never be available to quantify it.

Finally, you lump Julian Assange and Manning together. I think that's a major mistake beyond the fact the USG has a personal grudge of epic proportions against them both. In every other way, there is no comparison. Assange broke NO LAW...Trust...Oath...or confidence in people who trusted him with their lives. In fact, this was his chosen profession, such that it was. He was wide open, straight forward and determined in his actions, while Manning hid in the shadows and squeaked, like the Rat he is.

My question to you, do you think the American blubberment is without fault? Do you think that they should get away with the crimes that they are committing throughout the world in the ‘war on terror’ without punishment for these actions?

No.. The American Government isn't without fault...Oh...by no means even as a joke can that be said. No, they shouldn't get away with the things they've done and that's just what we know about. However, you see Manning as a part of a solution and I see him as an example or the moral bankruptcy and outright lack of human decency that brought our Government to the level it now is. Men with NO character are what run the system you hate so, and he's got FAR more in common with them than he's ever had with a man like Assange.

In my humble opinion.

(Oh..and sorry I hadn't starred your posts before..this has been an unusually interesting give and take on what normally becomes Hateville and personal inside a post or two

)

edit on 24-8-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I've stared your post too, but I can not reply until the weekend.... I have just ran out of time. Please check back in a day or so because I like this exchange.

Thanks mate

Mickierocksman

Whether or not you think manning is a hero or a traitor is going off the point really. Maybe he did go about it in the wrong way but you could also argue that he swore an oath to protect the constitution (remember the constitution?) Looks to me like the good old USA was already well on the way to being f****d without his contribution. So where are the proper channels for protesting about a foreign policy which kills innocent civilians in a far off land? who do you complain to about the high level fraud that has caused 70% of your population to be relying on food stamps to survive? who do you complain to about the huge numbers of jobs that have been outsourced to china? or how about finding a member of your government who will allay your fears about fema camps, who do you complain to when the TSA puts their hands down your pants? electoral fraud?, jesus I could go on an and on.

You're all scared. Too scared to complain in case you get put on a list and singled out for special attention by homeland security. And who can blame you, your presumption of innocence has been taken away and you don't have to commit a crime anymore to get locked up. Just disagreeing with your government is enough. Have a facebook account? try saying something derogatory about your president and see where that lands you.

Your country is in the state it is in because people are scared to speak out, exercising your 1st amendment will probably land you in a whole world of # because your 4th amendment (the one that protects you from being spied on) is gone.

I suspect Bradley Manning will be the first of many to find an unorthodox way of complaining unless more people stand up for your constitution

reply to post by robbo961

Well, you make a couple interesting points. I won't go as far as saying good because I strongly disagree. There are rights we had as absolutes in this nation until fairly recently like the 4th and 5th which are...well....modified would be the nicest way to describe the butchering of them. The 1st? I haven't had any problems.

Funny, I was just on this topic on another site earlier yesterday and made the same points there. If someone knows of a legitimate topic they aren't comfortable talking about and it isn't against T&C, U2U me. I'll do my own research, make the topic my very own and I'll post the thing.

I have no fear of being chased down, followed or otherwise molested for my words. I've been 'picked up' and it wasn't for what I said. Some IDIOT from my past thought I looked an awful lot like Unsub #2 back in 1995. Once you've spent several quality hours with people carrying a GS rank, it dulls the irrational fears of what they do and don't do.

I have a few things from people I've known, to carefully word this, which I know WOULD get me more time with those nice Gentlemen at an unmarked federal building here in town if I went babbling about them....and I wish I could. It's a security issue on that and for damn good reasons. That's the ONLY thing short of making threats, which is outright illegal, I wouldn't freely and openly talk about, research to death and just lay out for all to read themselves if given the idea for a direction to hop off in.

So, while some are paranoid and jumping at their own shadow.....imagining Gov't agents following them or buzzing their house with drones and airplanes, I'd welcome such a thing personally. It'd break up the boredom of the daily routine and I'll walk right over to someone in a vehicle and say Hi. I've done it before....and actually got them REAL pissed.

It turned out....I wasn't the one they were on the street to watch....and highlighting their presence for the OTHER house they were interested in just about had them blowing steam out the ears. Oh well.....Hide better was my feeling.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Hi, sorry, the weekend was a big one for a change – it’s strange for me to be away from ATS for longer than a day…..

Any-way, in order of points you are making.... (My responses start with an A.) We may have gotton a little bit off-topic, so I will try and bring it back into line OP.

First, your describing the hard conditions in confinement for a man I'm quite frankly sorry has lived this long and ought to die by whatever means the law prescribes under the Treason laws he knew and broke. Of course, it's been a few decades since Treason meant much more than a term in a law book, so I won't get my wish. He wants out though...I'm am 100% totally confident he'll never get his wish, either. So I'm good with that.

A. No man should be treated like that for whatever crime he has committed, it is barbaric and inhuman and I would expect better from a government that portrays itself as the ‘moral leader’ of the world.

His motives are of absolutely no concern to me. 3 factors make him forfeit to the life he still has left him, in my view.

1. He didn't release what he objected to. He released everything he could effectively download, blindly, from the entire military and government network he had any access to download from. Somewhere in there could have been details of his OWN BASE and all the enemy would have needed to over-run it and wipe out the very people who looked at him every morning and said hello, thinking he was a fellow Soldier, friend and man they could trust. He couldn't have known and didn't care. Out the door it went..by the Gigabyte.

A. I believe he objected to everything he saw. He then grabbed as much data as he could with the intention to try and show the world, I still think this is a good thing. He may have put in jeopardy the life’s of many people. I am thinking of 2 quotes: “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few” or perhaps a quote that America likes to use “acceptable losses”.

2. He didn't care to tell anyone his motives and he didn't care to stand for his great moral outrage. He literally opened the flood gates to the whole universe of classified intelligence he could get....then he hid. He put effort into hiding, in fact and had to be hunted down. Those aren't the actions of a man in the midst of moral outrage. Those are the actions of a coward and a traitor.

A. I don’t think that you could tell anyone, nor stand about his moral outrage, what he did and the way he did it he saw as his only option (release and run) being scared is ok.

3. The damage #1 did is incalculable. It isn't JUST about Military things or specific actions we all found far over the line which that material exposed. It was EVERYTHING. He didn't even limit the extreme damage to just the United States and our diplomatic position for years and perhaps much longer. He burned every nation and leader who even TALKED to us and had that mentioned in Classified State Department cables back to whoever Secretary of State was at the time it was written.

A. The diplomatic position or outlook of the US government is appalling and needed to be exposed. Not only the childish and outright corruption, but the inability to think that you do no wrong. America is not the world police, nor should it be.

The world is on the edge of World War and nations are ALL looking at each other like it's high noon at the OK Corral. Maybe Manning had nothing to do with that, when his treason destroyed trust between nations. Maybe it had quite a bit. It's impossible for us to ever know.....but he's earned NO benefit of any doubt.

A. Manning had nothing to do with that. The world has always known your government is corrupt and evil, the leaking of emails showed just how much.

As a side note, that material he released had a great number of names and personal details to figure out names of assets and agents who worked with the U.S. AND our allies. To think no one died as a DIRECT result of what he released is silly...even if a list of names, absolute certain, may never be available to quantify it.

A. Acceptable losses…. America thinks its ok to kill innocent civilians – I think its ok to expose America and its agents.

Finally, you lump Julian Assange and Manning together.

A. I only said that Assanage released the info, not lumping them together. Assanage stands up for what is right you’re correct – but not all men have his balls and that’s ok as well in my book, you don’t need balls to do the right thing.

Back on topic OP – I wish that Australia would break its silence on Assanage, our pitiful government for always doing what America wants makes me sick. How they have left him and sneaked away into a corner because America said ‘boo’ really does make me want to up-chuck.

Mickierocksman