reply to post by openlocks
and so it cannot measure or account for direct experience. Yet you yourself are calling for science to measure direct experience?
in a nutshell, science depends on "objectivity" to confirm proofs. Individual experience is subjective.
If something is subjective then it won't be counted necessarily as proof of anything, but some proofs may be limited to subjective experience.
As far as "immateriality" ....sure there are theoretical, relational, and mathematical aspects that point to such states, for example the quantum
state in the Bose/Einstein condensate and other possibilities. But tying this all into an afterlife/prelife state will take some time. I'm saying
that is all already there, and will take a while for science to prove so (hence the reason I bring up consciousness interaction devices).
The Buddha, and Lao Tzu, said the Absolute cannot be conveyed through language and any attempt to do so will not describe the Absolute.
YESSSS!!!!!! Ineffable, like arguing colors with a blind man. In this case, majority is blind and small tiny minority has seen color.
Do you then propose that we all just sit in silence and not move for the rest of our lives? Does this mean we should just do away with any attempt to
understand our surroundings? If you feel that way, why are you using a computer, why are you wearing clothes, why are you eating food grown through
argricultural knowledge? Why not just strip naked and forage for your food?
Of course not and I never proposed that. Science keeps me alive w/ meds due to chronic conditions. We've been living, growing, eating long before
science came into the picture, and besides it's not necessarily discoveries but uncoveries(new word?).
You are going to an extreme that the Buddha did not call for. He taught the Middle Way. He taught the end of perpetual self caused suffering. Even the
monks I am friends with embrace science. Sure, it has the potential to become dogmatic if it thinks it can figure out the Absolute reality of human
experience, but it does not claim to do that. It seeks to understand the observable world to help find solutions for the problems and dilemmas
humanity is facing, much like the Buddha did. In many ways the Buddha was like a scientist, and in many ways scientists are like Buddhas.
My experiences came to me by logic and reason. I reasoned that science will not give me enlightenment and the answers of Life that I seek, such as why
am I here. If I go to science for that answer, then I come from monkies and everything randomly happened to bring us to where we are today.
If I go to the mystics, they say to go within, find the true self, meditate, etc ....and perhaps you might find the answer. I tried it, and I did find
my answer. 1 of them being that there is purpose and reason for everything and that I am pure soul, having existed prior to the body and will continue
to exist once the body die. So I know for sure I am not just body and brain and relative cultural programming. I found the real transcendent part of
myself, and coincidentally there was an aspect of Grace involved, something hidden helping me from beyond what the senses could fathom.
Going through these things was a spiritual evolution, so I am completely open to physical evolution as well, and once these Mystical experiences
happened, ....I literally fell in Love with Quantum Physics/Mechanics, Cern, Unitive Theories, Infinite Math (see signature), and so forth. To me
science is just uncovering the brilliant works of the Infinite and everything from cells to Universes, seems as brilliant designs ......yet all of
this is being uncovered with a "group think" phenomenon of the aforementioned blind men (while a small minority have seen colors)
So I try my best to go down the middle path, but honestly see science as still a looooong way off to catch up to what Mystics have already known for
thousands of years. I'm sure we'll get there eventually, but I honestly think it will happen by those who embrace Mysticism and are not hindered by
That's all I wanted to say. Nothing against you, science, or anyone else.