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Future ideas and experiments to prove the existence of non-local consciousness?

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posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 



People who experience NDE's are not dead, only near death. In fact, their brain is still working, and most likely causing all phenomenon during said NDE.

Just so we can be clear, there actually is some data that exists, of individuals having NDE's while brain dead:
EEG expert can't explain NDE Data

Or in the case of surgical procedures called "hypothermic cardiac arrest where doctors induce a lowered body temp down to 60 degrees F, heartbeat stopped, breathing stopped, and all brain waves stand still, yet an NDE still occurs:
hypothermic NDE

We can even go further and discuss the russian doctor who died, was dead for 3 days straight, kept for those 3 days in a morgue freezer, then came back to life during the autopsy. There was a show about it on discovery channel about 6-8 years back, can't seem to find the youtube vid but here's a blog reference to it, or you can do your own research on it:
blog reference

All of these would most definitely be chinks in the armor of a strong materialistic defense


Death is permanent and irreversible. Near-death isn't. As the brain shuts down, loses oxygen, NDE's may occur.


These phenomena are usually reported after an individual has been pronounced clinically dead or otherwise very close to death, hence the term near-death experience.



Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain life.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest. The term is also sometimes used in resuscitation research.


en.wikipedia.org...


Researcher Lakhmir Chawla at George Washington University medical centre in Washington D.C. argues that near-death experiences are caused by a surge of electrical activity as the brain runs out of oxygen before death. Levels were similar to those seen in fully conscious people, even though blood pressure was so low as to be undetectable, and could generate vivid images and feelings. The gradual loss of brain activity had occurred in the approximate hour before death, and was interrupted by a brief spurt of action, lasting from 30 seconds to three minutes.



In September 2008, it was announced that 25 U.K. and U.S. hospitals would examine near-death studies in 1,500 heart attack patient-survivors. The three-year study, coordinated by Sam Parnia at Southampton University, hopes to determine if people without heartbeat or brain activity can have an out-of-body experience with veridical visual perceptions.[41] This study follows on from an earlier 18-month pilot project.[42] On a July 28, 2010 interview about a recent lecture at Goldsmiths,[43] Parnia asserts that "evidence is now suggesting that mental and cognitive processes may continue for a period of time after a death has started" and describes the process of death as "essentially a global stroke of the brain.



Neurobiological factors in the experience have been investigated by researchers in the field of medical science and psychiatry.[36] Among the researchers and commentators who tend to emphasize a naturalistic and neurological base for the experience are the British psychologist Susan Blackmore (1993), with her "dying brain hypothesis",[37] and the founding publisher of Skeptic magazine, Michael Shermer (1998). More recently, cognitive neuroscientists Jason Braithwaite (2008)[38] from the University of Birmingham and Sebastian Dieguez (2008)[39] and Olaf Blanke (2009)[40] from the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, Switzerland have published accounts presenting evidence for the brain-based nature of near death experiences.



Research released in 2010 by University of Maribor, Slovenia had put near-death experiences down to high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood altering the chemical balance of the brain and tricking it into 'seeing' things.[45] Of the 52 patients, 11 reported NDEs.


en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 22-8-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


Are you suggesting that a dream is a result of the mind and not a result of the brain?



posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


Are you suggesting that a dream is a result of the mind and not a result of the brain?


Not quite. I am suggesting that a dream is a result of the entire body, every memory and everything we have experienced during the course of our lives.



posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 





Someone who has been blind since birth doesn't dream in sight. Being blind is a physical, not mental, malady. This shows that the mind and ideas are dependent on sensual stimulus, not consciousness.


I do not believe in the mind being responsible for thoughts or ideas, but the brain. My belief is that the only purpose of the mind is indescribable, existential self-awareness.



posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 





Someone who has been blind since birth doesn't dream in sight. Being blind is a physical, not mental, malady. This shows that the mind and ideas are dependent on sensual stimulus, not consciousness.


I do not believe in the mind being responsible for thoughts or ideas, but the brain. My belief is that the only purpose of the mind is indescribable, existential self-awareness.



I agree. Mind is a completely ambiguous and abstract term. But what is it abstracted from? The body (read Descartes' Meditations). The mind body dualism is, in my opinion, completely unnecessary. It is the result of thousands of years of Platonic and Aristotelean thought. Aristotle called it the soul, Descartes called it the mind, Homer and the pre-Socratics called it nous. People these days are calling it consciousness. In my opinion, all of these terms are abstractions of what we still don't know about the body.



posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by dominicus

So what we need to do is come up with some super sensitive instruments that might be able to detect this kind of non-local consciousness that could be measured outside of the body.


For the sake of argument, lets say you succeed in coming up with instruments like that. Let's say you use them to produce some evidence of non-local consciousness.

Then what?



Then what, you ask? Every criminal will claim innocence because the thoughts that drove him to kill. rape, molest, rob, were forced upon him by this outer consciousness.

Yeah, some are thinking of bashing me for this, but hey, these are not my thoughts. I'm just a receiver.


You do have control over which thoughts you ACT upon.

If I receive a loaded gun from someone, I can still choose to unload it and throw it away.


How can you choose if your thoughts are not your own? When you receive a thought to kill someone, if you DON'T receive a thought to refuse to kill someone, then it's not your fault. Can anyone control the great consciousness that supposedly feeds us our thoughts?



posted on Aug, 22 2012 @ 09:42 PM
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The reason for there being clinical research presently, into NDE, is because once the heart stops, blood the brain stops in about ten seconds.

Also, the brain is not just a pump it also discharges and recharges electricity. Again no current to the brain about 10 seconds after the heart stops.

Despite these facts, individuals who have had a heart attack, in here homes, recall specific information. This related to the experiences that occurred from 10 seconds after there heart stoped and when they were revived. During these periods the human brain cannot possibly process information, akin in any way to what is commonly comprehended as a conscious person. Keep in mind brain activity is the result of an electro-chemical response. Without electricity the process stops so the capacity to image and process information in real time is gone. Further they cannot hear, see, smell, taste of feel, those capacities are gone given a materialist view of the human condition.

The issue of contention in this clinical research is about the experiences patients report, related to the nuances of there experiences, 10 seconds after the heart has stoped. By that I mean they remember things like what the ambulance drivers were talking about, unrelated to there specific roles. They remember specifics related to other patients in the emergency room, they were brought to.

Events like this happen all over the world and at present in clinical research and of average, 20 percent of patients experiencing heart attacks report NDE''s

This is why the research is considered relevant enough for clinical research.



"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."


near-death.com...

Magentic properties of human brain and heart


Any thoughts?
edit on 22-8-2012 by Kashai because: Added content

edit on 22-8-2012 by Kashai because: Added content



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer
You do have control over which thoughts you ACT upon.


Yes, we do.
In fact, what else exists that any of us can say we singly control?
Our own minds...and that is it.

Our own thoughts are all we can truly ever hope to control.

Largely still held as potential but that's okay, too.





edit on 8/23/2012 by queenannie38 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 06:56 AM
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Consciousness is the software---the brain is the hardware.

When life is conceived the software is uploaded. And as the OP postulates,
it comes from a realm we humans have not yet perceived,

I believe our conscious entities have been evolving (in a Darwinian sense)
toward an unknown goal, passing thru many phases or forms and as we exhaust
one life form we are folded back into (the unknown) energy of consciousness
in the same way that the explosive deaths of stars re-enrich the universe and provide
material for new stars; the same way that the death of a living thing provides the material
for new living beings.

The evidence is all around us from what we can perceive with these five meager senses.

You were before, and you will be after...as will all life. The reason that pre-existence is given
such short-shrift, as compared to post-existence (in religion), is that we have have a very
healthy and natural fear of dying.

To me where we have been is as important as where we are going, perhaps even more-so.



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


Great thread Dominicus, and some excellent responses. S&F

An experiment ? Here's your answer



I've been out of my body so many times, I've lost count.

I can't believe people still think we are our brains !!


I guess death will reveal all to those who are trapped in their flesh.

* Ned



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


Well there does happen to be a part of the brain called "soul". This is because they do not know what else to call it for lack of a better word. In psychology, you learn that there is a void in the back of your brain that cannot be touched or prodded what so ever. If touched in any way at all, the person dies. Ive watched a video in my psych class on it last year but cannot find it anywhere for the life of me. If i do, will post immediately.

Also, the translation for psychology is literally "study of the soul".

Hope that helps, even if a little bit,
Mike
edit on 23-8-2012 by PsyMike91 because: add


added: if you believe that the soul is directly associated with consciousness, and consciousness is the source of all, that is...
edit on 23-8-2012 by PsyMike91 because: add



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


OOBEs have been shown to be nothing more than lucid dreaming in research studies done about it and can be done consistently and repeatedly with practice



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by dragnik
 

www.facebook.com... 197993

edit on 23-8-2012 by dragnik because: link did not work



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 12:55 PM
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God is also conscious like euhm.. THIS MY EARTH, THESE ARE MY CHILDREN! I AM THE LORD!

cool ey..



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


"All things are but thoughts which the creator thinks."

Our consciousness' are but isolated fragments of that one consciousness.

Therefore, remote.

Peace.



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 03:10 PM
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I for one would love consciousness to be non-local, but frankly all the evidence points to this not being the case. Personalities can be alterd by trauma or drugs, memories can be lost or created. NDE's can be replicated by sending signals to certain parts of the brain, or by certain drugs. In the face of these FACTS its hard to still say there is a "soul". For me this is truly depressing, but I do not ignore science to make myself feel better. I have even taken up Buddhism and meditation in hopes of finding something.

The show "Through the Wormhole" has done 2 or 3 shows on consciousness recently, and the evidence is pretty damning for the idea of non-local consciousness. I'll still hold out hoping that one day science will prove we're more than a watery bag of flesh



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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I wonder if any one has tried to line a quite undisturbed room containing a dying person or a meditator with quartz crystal microbalance biosensors to see if there are any reactions during a persons death or obe. Applications of quartz crystal biosensors are used in acoustic physics to the analysis of biomolecular interactions

If not maybe this is the experiment to see if any type of "spirit" or energy is released during death or obe and what not.
edit on 23-8-2012 by dizTheWiz because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus

In particular is a poster named "Openlocks",

What I want to say is these 4 things.
1.I remember pre-existing prior to the body being born, which means at some point this pre-existant consciousness that was me at the time, had to enter the womb/fetus.

2. On another note, several times in my life, I as consciousness, had popped out of body floated around, and came back to the body.

3. There are several elder mystic monks within several monasteries that can actually pop out of their bodies on command.

4. And last, according to religions and accounts of regular non-religious folks in the events of NDE's (Near Death Experiences), upon death of the body, consciousness leaves the body.

So what we need to do is come up with some super sensitive instruments that might be able to detect this kind of non-local consciousness that could be measured outside of the body. In these instances we have 3 groups we can test on. The womb of a pregnant woman, those who can leave the body at will, and those on their death beds.

What this instrument is and constructed out of and its mechanics is beyond me, as my realm of expertise is philosophy, mysticism, and esotericism, however I bring this thread to you in the form of a very near possibility that needs to be done that will bring to light a lot of answers, as well as more questions and we can truly progress even more in science, life, and religion by answering this question.

Sadly, I think because of much bias and dogma within the scientific community, I think this test will fall on deaf ears for fear of, in the event that consciousness outside of the body proves true scientifically, this will certainly bring up the question of what is the source of this non-physical consciousness and how does it come to be ...which of course masses of folks will bring up the one word many in the scientific community possibly hate and/or fear ...... "God"


Well I can appreciate your interest in this topic, and as long as you are sincere in hearing me out and considering what I have to say, I will do the same for you. As I stated before, it is true, much of the scientific community is very rigid and dogmatic. There is some egoic satisfaction in thinking you have something figured out, so to have someone come along and try to discredit your assumptions can make you defensive if not down-right irrational. But that goes for all areas of life, not just science. In fact, science works through dogmatism better than most other areas just because its whole foundation is based upon verifiable testing and retesting that anyone can do.

Anyways, as far as these experiences you and others are having, there has been much, much, study done on such things. It has definitely led to some radical shifts in the way neuroscience and the brain is looked at. For instance, neuroscience believes the mind is a derivative of the brain, and yet its location is not necessarily confined to the brain. In other words, the mind arises out of neural events within the brain but is then projected out "into the world". So things like out of body experiences are totally plausible from neurosciences perspective. However, and this is where I ask you to also put away your dogma hat, a neuroscientist would most likely consider such an experience a mere perceptual experience within the brain. They would place no mystical qualities to such an experience.

Now again, considering the notion that the mind is derived from the brain and yet its location is not limited to the brain, this can account for both assumptions in this debate. Admittedly, neuroscience has not delved very deep into this area compared to other areas, but again, it is a young field. So there is still much to be learned. What I would caution you from doing is attributing this sensory experience to something mystical or other-worldly, "God" as you stated, because that is the definition of dogma. You have had an experience and you have attributed causation to that experience with no evidence or validation. That is dogma by its very definition.


edit on 23-8-2012 by openlocks because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Sinny
 




Some scientists decided to investigate NDE's.. after many, many cases they finally got proof of consciousness being out side the brain!!


This is just flat out not true. Please be careful spouting unverifiable rhetoric, because many people will be prone to follow what you say as proof. Look, I will be the first to read whatever "proof" is out there, and if it convinces me otherwise I promise I will spend the rest of my career advocating the "consciousness is outside of the brain" theory. Any scientist would love to hop on that bandwagon before it starts really rolling. Scientists fiend to find the next big break through or advancement. That is what we live for, in many respects. But we also believe in validity and empiricism. Making wild statements and parading them as facts is not only "unscientific" but it is a quick way to throw your entire career in the toilet. No one takes anyone serious, in any field or area of life, who just goes around spouting undocumented and unverifiable nonsense.

So send me this "proof" and I will look it over. Otherwise, chill out with all this dogma, it doesn't help anything.



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