Young Israelis Held in Attack on Arabs

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

It amazes me at times....How anyone can honestly suggest the fighting between the Arabs and Israeli's is one sided. I'm shocked by some suggestions that Palestinians never attack and murder Jewish Settlers.

No one has suggested that, but the overwhelming power is with the Israelis. The killing of the 5 at Itamar was truly shocking but do you consider settlers to be civilians, soldiers or somewhere in between? Whatever they are considered it would be a heinous crime but it makes some objective and strategic sense.

The settlers are stealing Palestinian land, use terror against them to try and force a rethink and retreat. Just as Israeli targeted killing of Hamas leaders makes sense as violence from the Palestinian militants has been shown to taper off in such scenarios. None of the violence practiced by either side is irrational, even suicide bombings, it is all aimed at achieving perceived strategic ends.

Unfortunately neither side has yet come to the conclusion that a fair peaceful arrangement is the only way forward for both people, in particular on the Israeli side, who hold all the cards....for now.

Religion of peace! Oops wait a sec...er what was I saying?, dang, I am in the wrong stereotyping thread again..

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

It amazes me at times....How anyone can honestly suggest the fighting between the Arabs and Israeli's is one sided. I'm shocked by some suggestions that Palestinians never attack and murder Jewish Settlers.

No one has suggested that, but the overwhelming power is with the Israelis.

Actually... You suggested this, if not in precisely the words I used....and perhaps I misunderstood and you did mean to give due credit to both sides being equally quick to murder each other..if given half a chance. here is what your comment was for my response though.

Where? Can't happen in Gaza as there are no longer any Israelis settled there. The West Bank? Palestinians, if they were so inclined, would find it very difficult to attack any of the settlements due to the IDF and heavily militarized nature of the settlements, not to say that it has never happened. Israel? I'm pretty sure they would be arrested.

If there is true disagreement on the fact that it's a very two sided fight in the West Bank, or that your OP describes a fairly common scene with sides simply swapping on the daily incidents, I have a LONG list of incidents similar to the two I cited. I just pulled a couple for samples to illustrate what I was saying about murder being the business of both Jew and Arab individuals across the whole West Bank.

The killing of the 5 at Itamar was truly shocking but do you consider settlers to be civilians, soldiers or somewhere in between? Whatever they are considered it would be a heinous crime but it makes some objective and strategic sense.

Actually, I consider adult Israeli citizens to be Soldiers. As they rightly are. All of them. The Palestinians are similar..if not FORMALLY inducted and trained. However, Israel is a compulsory military service nation as Syria and others in that region are or have been until very recently. They're all trained and they'll all fight.

This story I showed though..the main one.. was as much about the stabbing death of a baby right along with the others found in the house. THAT makes "Strategic and Objective sense"?? I KNOW you didn't mean the baby, but your talking the whole by overlooking the evil of it's parts. BOTH sides have no shortage of evil deeds.

The settlers are stealing Palestinian land, use terror against them to try and force a rethink and retreat. Just as Israeli targeted killing of Hamas leaders makes sense as violence from the Palestinian militants has been shown to taper off in such scenarios. None of the violence practiced by either side is irrational, even suicide bombings, it is all aimed at achieving perceived strategic ends.

That is among the few points on this topic we would agree on, 100%. I've posted my own maps of the West Bank and land control and it's just staggering. It's not 'Occupied' territory...it's Israeli land that Palestinians are allowed to live on....in terms of the daily reality. Thats horrid.... It's complex too, as the Settlers have said...CLEARLY...they will fight Israeli forces AND the Palestinians at the SAME TIME if that's what it takes to keep their homes. Operation Price Tag is the name of the effort the Settlers attack BOTH IDF and PLA forces under. Craaaaazy place!

Unfortunately neither side has yet come to the conclusion that a fair peaceful arrangement is the only way forward for both people, in particular on the Israeli side, who hold all the cards....for now.

The first part, I agree again. Arabs and Jews alike fight and almost seem to like it, they do it so energetically on a daily basis..and for decades now.

The idea Israel holds all the cards tho.. Well, it might appear that way to a Palestinian boy on the street in East Jerusalem, but I'd suggest...it only appears that way. Israel is a postage stamp of a nation surrounded by 100's of millions of Arabs (to their measly little 7+ million population) that can, if they ever chose to care enough, IMPOSE a solution to this. Likewise, I am sure both Hamas leadership in Gaza City and PLA leadership in Ramallah would disagree on who has all the power.

In specific example..I'd even note Israel all but handed Arafat what he wanted on a platter as will likely never happen again. In his mind, It was 100% ALL or 100% nothing. Well... His choice..and he made it. He was one man, but the people backed him and I recall those talks where it happened for reports. The Palestinians were behind him for spitting in the faces of the Israelis and telling them where to shove peace if Jerusalem couldn't be precisely how he demanded it. .....all so complex over there. No good guys..on either side.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

If there is true disagreement on the fact that it's a very two sided fight in the West Bank, or that your OP describes a fairly common scene with sides simply swapping on the daily incidents, I have a LONG list of incidents similar to the two I cited. I just pulled a couple for samples to illustrate what I was saying about murder being the business of both Jew and Arab individuals across the whole West Bank.

If we want to play the numbers game on attacks in the West Bank, it is clear that there are more attacks on Palestinians and their property as compared to attacks on Jewish settlements, why? Becasue the settlements have a modern army protecting them and the settler violence is a strategy which the IDF is complicit in of slow ethnic cleansing. It is settler violence which is now considered, even by the US, to be terrorisim.

VIOLENCE by Jewish settlers has been cited for the first time in a list of ''terrorist incidents'' in a United States annual report, as Israeli leaders condemned a string of attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank and Jerusalem. Read more: www.smh.com.au...

Actually, I consider adult Israeli citizens to be Soldiers. As they rightly are. All of them. The Palestinians are similar..if not FORMALLY inducted and trained. However, Israel is a compulsory military service nation as Syria and others in that region are or have been until very recently. They're all trained and they'll all fight.

Well they aren't similar. The IDF is a modern army where troops receive decent training and weaponry. Palestinians are mostly civilians apart from a few thousand who are members of the armed group of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the PA (Which was trained by the Americans and is subservient to the Israelis). So what if Syria is ready to fight (which right now it clearly isn't) it is a different country with its own concerns and will not be fighting to free the Palestinians anytime soon if ever. Israel and Syria's ongoing state of war is a separate issue.

This story I showed though..the main one.. was as much about the stabbing death of a baby right along with the others found in the house. THAT makes "Strategic and Objective sense"?? I KNOW you didn't mean the baby, but your talking the whole by overlooking the evil of it's parts. BOTH sides have no shortage of evil deeds.

Exactly I am not looking at the moral implications of killing a baby so objectively yes, as that baby will grow up to be an enemy of the Palestinians and have more babies. Of course it is not that simple, as those killings, caused outrage among western backers of the PA, but its not like the PA could be any more subservient to Israel yet still the people of the West Bank & E Jerusalem get nothing. That isolated incident just enforced the view that many already hold which would not have been shaken anyway, that Palestinians are terrorists and their terrorism springs from a political and economic vacuum, just simply because they hate Jews.

The idea Israel holds all the cards tho.. Well, it might appear that way to a Palestinian boy on the street in East Jerusalem, but I'd suggest...it only appears that way. Israel is a postage stamp of a nation surrounded by 100's of millions of Arabs (to their measly little 7+ million population) that can, if they ever chose to care enough, IMPOSE a solution to this. Likewise, I am sure both Hamas leadership in Gaza City and PLA leadership in Ramallah would disagree on who has all the power.

It doesn't appear that way, it IS that way. Why are you trying to make out Israel is weak when it clearly isn't? 100's of millions of Arabs? So? They were under until recently dictatorships that didn't give a # about the Palestinians and would crackdown on any descent and are now going through bloody revolutions. They are not a part of the conflict.

In specific example..I'd even note Israel all but handed Arafat what he wanted on a platter as will likely never happen again. In his mind, It was 100% ALL or 100% nothing. No good guys..on either side

The deal offered at Oslo was a terrible deal for the Palestinian people, the deal backed by many today is a terrible deal. A state of Bantustan with no control over its borders or airspace, demilitarized and helpless.

You are wrong about no good guys, there are good people on both sides outside of the leaderships, in civil society, co-operating and espousing peace and a peaceful and just solution to be found.

A quite discouraging video of Jewish reaction to the attacks.

Just days after a mob of Jewish Israelis beat and injured three Palestinian youth, one nearly to death, Israel's Ynet news website conducted interviews in central Jerusalem's Kikar Hahatulot [Cat Square], just a few hundred feet from the site of what was dubbed by Israeli police a "lynching." The video is reminiscent of a controversial 2009 video made by Jewish-American journalist/author Max Blumenthal and American-Israeli journalist Joseph Dana titled "Feeling the hate in Jerusalem."

imeu.net...

Here is the video, disturbing.