Logic - The ULTIMATE Troll!

reply to post by TinkerHaus


I agree with you for the most part.

I noticed you didn't use a certain word in your OP.... "debunker" ...IMO those tend to be the ones acting like Trolls.

Now, a logical skeptic would be different. It's kind of like Star Trek... You have the Vulcans who are hardcore masters of logic... and we can all see how they say annoying things sometimes and act superior ..... kind of like a troll...but they aren't.

That's what the trick is....to know the difference. And of course, use logic yourself.

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
I have always wanted to know the TRUTH about everything. This is the reason I cannot accept a wild claim without seeing evidence.

Many of you on ATS want to immediately label those who expect to see evidence of a claim (the bigger the claim the better the evidence) as trolls, naysayers, close-minded, etc.

The one that bothers me the most is "close-minded." Many skeptics on ATS are VERY open minded, so much so in fact, that if we were to see something we didn't believe in, or good evidence of a claim, we would be able to instantly change our opinion of that subject.

Calling someone a troll right off the bat is a way to dismiss them. It's an umbrella response to almost anything that offends most people here. It's a low effort way to label someone and disregard them. It's mindless and petty. It's not OPEN MINDED, that's fo shizzle.

Don't mistake healthy skepticism with "troll." Don't make skeptics a despised minority on ATS. Don't hate someone because they didn't have the same personal experience that caused you to believe in what they do not. Instead, deny ignorance and communicate with people. If someone doesn't believe your claim, try to prove to them that it's true - don't just call them a troll and ignore them for asking valid questions.

edit on 20-8-2012 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)

The irnoic flaw with this logic is that it doesnt take into account the ACTUAL trolls on this site and there are real trolls on here that do nothing but disrupt and derail a thread. We have all gone off topic now and then but some people make a sport of it. Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar and sometimes it is not.

So when I tell you that the Sun exploded years ago due a an incorrect calibration in HAARP while trying to cover up 9/11 you won't believe me? But I have proof! I just can't release it yet, soon though. I would never lie about this stuff. Oh, the Sun is just holographic image from blue beam.

whatever... troll.. i kid i kid op.

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
I have always wanted to know the TRUTH about everything.

Hi OP... When you say 'THE Truth'.... Do you mean 'The Facts' ?

There can be many Truths surrounding surrounding a single fact... My truth, your truth, his truth, her truth...

I say 'Fred is behind the stage.'
You say 'Fred is in front of the stage.'
He says 'Fred is on the left of the stage.'
She says 'Fred is on the right of the stage.'

Everyone is telling 'the truth' but they all disagree...
If they are all correct... then how is it?

Truth != Fact

Not trying to troll... just demonstrate how some people can get a different message depending on how they understand the meaning of words / symbols.

Originally posted by V3isM3

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
I have always wanted to know the TRUTH about everything.

Hi OP... When you say 'THE Truth'.... Do you mean 'The Facts' ?

There can be many Truths surrounding surrounding a single fact... My truth, your truth, his truth, her truth...

I say 'Fred is behind the stage.'
You say 'Fred is in front of the stage.'
He says 'Fred is on the left of the stage.'
She says 'Fred is on the right of the stage.'

Everyone is telling 'the truth' but they all disagree...
If they are all correct... then how is it?

Truth != Fact

Not trying to troll... just demonstrate how some people can get a different message depending on how they understand the meaning of words / symbols.

All of these are examples of Untruth, which I addressed earlier. Sure, no one is LYING because they all believe themselves to be telling the truth, but only one of them is correct.

That is a Universal Truth.

What you are talking about is ignorance. You may be ignorant of a situation but believe that you have enough information to make a truthful statement. So you claim that Fred is up-center stage when everyone else knows - he is up-left-center. Just because you are ignorant on stage positions doesn't make your version the actual truth. It makes it the truth you perceive, which is EXACTLY what we are discussing.

reply to post by TinkerHaus

That's a pretty good rant now, TinkerHaus. However I see only a minority that are completely closed minded, most here are open to the max. Some folk have feelings, and emotions, and if you insult them, they go away and never come back again. Like in the Alien/Abduction threads, someone comes in with a real experience, and suddenly it's this demonic force. I think you know where this is headed.

To me, a true skeptic is what I like. This person will argue their point in an intelligent and responsible manner, never insulting. These skeptical people are the ones who make us go to our research, and try to prove the point we are making. Some cover the bases and post all kinds of supporting evidence from different sources.

Calling someone a troll right off the bat is a way to dismiss them.

Yes, it is dismissive, isn't it? I am one who has been called a troll, among other things. I have a very thick skin, and many of our younger members afraid to post what they know, and feel.

reply to post by TinkerHaus


I don't agree there is only one version of the truth.

ANYTHING can be argued and reinterpreted.

One person's truth is always another person's lie.

Example: Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

His supporters to not care at all if he violates the constitution to get Obama or the brown people. If they truly cared, they wouldn't support him. Instead they se him as a hero.

And many tyrants are seen as heroes or villains, depending upon whom you talk to.

So really, I just can't agree.

It's like what Obi Wan says, truth is always depended upon one's point of view.

But the one thing they have in common is they ALWAYS expect everybody else to agree with them and to change their mind and believe the same as them.

Because that is all they've seen and they are completely incapable of seeing anything else.

Regardless of what the proof or the facts show.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


There are some abstract topics that come from a political view, and are therefor interpretive - but for many things there is only one truth. So the OPINIONS on immigration may cover a wide spectrum, but the actual facts on immigration in Arizona are not open for interpretation.

We can know factually the numbers, projected crime increases/reductions, jobs taken, etc (these are the key issues in this debate, not my own issues), and the opinion you draw from those facts (and of course your own political/religious/philosophical views) are just that, opinion.

So we once again come back to the point where there is only one actual truth, and everything else is an incorrect interpretation of that truth.

I am not claiming to know the truth about Arizona's immigration issues, but was continuing with your example.

I don't think Arpaio has violation The Constitution, however. If you'd like to further debate this particular topic please provide some evidence that he has done so via U2U.

Thanks!

reply to post by TinkerHaus


There are only a few things with comes one truth, and that's in the hard sciences. Such as the periodic table of elements. That's something that never changes.


But even science has its relative truths. String theory is taught as fact when in fact none has been observed or verified, yet science believes it as fact.

The only one truth can only come from something that can be verified in some way. Such as in chemistry.

Anything else is relative depending upon one's point of view.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

There are only a few things with comes one truth, and that's in the hard sciences. Such as the periodic table of elements. That's something that never changes.


But even science has its relative truths. String theory is taught as fact when in fact none has been observed or verified, yet science believes it as fact.

The only one truth can only come from something that can be verified in some way. Such as in chemistry.

Anything else is relative depending upon one's point of view.

String Theory is not taught as fact, it's taught as a theory.

reply to post by TinkerHaus



In science a theory is a body of facts, such as the theory of gravity.

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

In science a theory is a body of facts, such as the theory of gravity.

So you're on my side?

What are we arguing about?

Or are you claiming that you have another explanation for these things?

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
A bunch of examples:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I wasn't even talking to him, nor have I ever spoken directly to him, and he immediately labels me a troll and attempts to discredit me. If you read his profile you see that he believes in a lot of the mostly unbelievable.

He attacks with fervor simply because I implied indirectly that I might refute one of his claims, although again I must stress that we have never spoken. I have apparently hit a soft spot I was not aiming for. =(

This is the mindless sheepery I'm referring to.


CaLyps0, thank you for helping with the lesson. I hope this gold star makes you feel less offended.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was getting confused. I saw of the
"Manners and Decorum," and the "Extreme T&C Violation" warnings in his replies. Seems to me he must be the troll here, not anyone else. Does he have anything of importance to say, or is he banned already?

reply to post by TinkerHaus


I'm not on anybody's side.

Just saying that anything can be reinterpreted and argued, is all.

Sometimes 1 + 1 equals three or four or five. Or even.... 13!

Nothing is truly set in stone.