What is your problem with "matter" ?

The Problem Of The Soul by Owen Flanagan.


This is the most profound, challenging, difficult, disturbing book I've ever read about neuroscience and its direct implications regarding "spirituality". There are a lot of commonly accepted assumptions in this thread. After you read it, you would think differently about the Cartesian worldview.

Science has always created problems for traditional ways of seeing things, but now the very attributes that make us human--free will, the permanence of personal identity, the existence of the soul--are threatened by the science of the mind. If the mind is the brain, and therefore a physical object subject to deterministic laws, how can we have free will? If most of our thoughts and impulses are unconscious, how can we be morally responsible for what we do? If brains and bodies undergo relentless change, how can our identities be constant? The Problem of the Soul shows the way out of these paradoxes. Framing the conflict in terms of two dominant visions of the mind--the "manifest image" of humanistic philosophy and theology, and the scientific image--Owen Flanagan demonstrates that there is common ground, and that we need not give up our ideas of moral responsibility and personal freedom in order to have an empirically sound view of the human mind. This is a profoundly relevant work of philosophy for the common reader.

Source: www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346118960&sr=1-1&keywords=the+problem+of+the+s oul

reply to post by SplitInfinity


This quote always makes me smile. It may be that our universe has expanded and collapsed a trillion times until the ratio between expansion and gravity was just right to form stars and life ...

In the early expansion of the universe, there must have been a close balance between the expansive energy (driving things apart) and the force of gravity (pulling things together). If expansion dominated then matter would fly apart too rapidly for condensation into galaxies and stars to take place…(The possibility of our existence) requires a balance between the effects of expansion and contraction which at a very early epoch in the universe’s history (The Planck time) has to differ from equality by not more than 1 in 10*60 . The numerate (mathematical) will marvel at such a degree of accuracy. For the non-numerate, I will borrow an illustration from Paul Davies of what that accuracy means. He points out that it is the same as aiming at a target an inch wide on the other side of the observable universe, twenty thousand million light years away, and hitting the mark.[9]

reply to post by AllIsOne


That is a good statement. One thing that I personally have taken an interest in is QUANTUM MECHANICS. I believe this is the "TELL" that most defines some proof of our Universe being but one in a Infinite Group of Alternate Divergent Universal Realities.

As I have stated before...the MATH has never been proven to LIE! There is a 100% Probability that in any INFINITE SYSTEM...that every possibility or combination of anything...events, histories, constructs of all matter, energy, thought, lack of thought and existence...MUST EXIST! The MATH DICTATES this must be so.

The Quantum Mechanics that exist seem to be part of a MUCH LARGER SYSTEM than our One Universal Reality provides for...thus...Infinite versions of Reality. I believe this is the only path to understanding the UFT or Unified Field Theory. Split Infinity

This is another Cartesian gem re mind versus matter. I let you good people figure out where the logical fallacy lies.

Further, it should be understood that every effect must resemble its cause. This is because, simply put, you cannot give what you do not have, so it is impossible for an effect to possess something its originating cause did not have. That being the case, how can one believe that an impersonal, amoral, purposeless, and meaningless universe accidentally created beings that are full of personality, morals, meaning, and purpose? Only mind can create mind. In the end it is either matter before mind or mind before matter, and all scientific, philosophical, and reasonable evidence points to the latter.

Source: www.gotquestions.org...

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Yes, our reality may be like a radio tuned to one station only. We need better equipment to explore more "stations".

reply to post by AllIsOne

A Multiverse would explain many things. Psychics as an example. The Human Brain is made up of Atoms that have a Nucleus of Protons and with the exception of Hydrogen...Neutrons. Now both Protons and Neutrons are comprised entirely of QUANTUM PARTICLES.

These Quantum Particles are Blinking in and out of our Universal Existence. If they were exchanging existence with another Divergent Universe's Alternate Version of a Sensitives Brain Matter...thus they become part of a Proton or Neutron in an Atoms Nucleus of another version of this persons mind...this could be the connectivity that allows them to access information not yet available in our Reality.

Since Time is Not Linear...in another Reality...a Sensitive could access Thought or Memory of their Double in a Non-Linear Time State where they could see WHERE AND WHEN TIMMY FELL DOWN A WELL. They might access a Alternate Version of themselves thought as that other version reads a Newspaper that states how Timmy's Dead Body was found in a Well...or an Alternate Double in another Universal State where Timmy was found alive. Either way...the Sensitive has a connectivity to various versions in a Non-Linear based Time.

Split Infinity

Metaphyscis and the philosopy from which it derived many things tells a story.

I hear stories which are an expression that are different, yet tell the same story.

Obvioisly, I need to talk.... Lol..... But I want some like minded people to hear my thoughts and tell me your thoughts and this will allow the converstaion to expand as we express our self in regards to the order of nature, cosmos and the human being.

Are y'all with me?

It is topic related to " matter" as well.

I just can't stop thinking sometimes about the order of the cosmos. The Oder of the human body, and frankly all living things. Even more so today because it seems as of last night, I've had some sort of revelation. I've had pieces of a puzzle scattered about in my mind for the last .... Well..... All of my life of almost forty years but every day devotion for the last twenty.

I've studied at LENGTH many subjects. It began when I was little. I had a love for native Americans so I read all the time the different stories and my father took me and my brother a few times to see the Cherokee reservations not far from my state of Tennessee.

I began to be interested in Einstein as he and I share a birthday. Lol I began reading and studying the ideas of time.

The Bible was always a good read, although the many churches while I was growing up never told the stories as good as I could tell them to myself not to mention the preachers never could answer my questions.

My knowledge seeking began very young as most do ASKING WHY? A child may or may not be a why asker but I was and love the age because I'm the type of parent that gives a full answer each time.

As an adult going through the many life changes including one death after another including but not limited to my sons battle and loss with cancer.

The whys have always remained with me over the years, until last night.

Before last night, the last twenty years have been educating myself all that I wanted to know.

Time, light, darkness, clouds, god/gods, religions, philosphy, quantum mechanics, beginnings of all of creation stories, and big bang, from the atom to the molecule, quirks, human anatomy, anything pertaining to the living whether it's a tree, fruit, forms, shapes, symbols, and so on. I mean I became an addict to reading. I've read about astral physics, psychics, near death experience, out of body experiences and so on. It's been a whirlwind, but it's like one subject leads me to another almost in a fashion of perfect sequence. I was upset one day when a preacher told me where my son was is a mystery. I told God ( whatever that was for me at the time, I didn't know) I will not read the Bible again until you show me your self without it. It's too confusing and I'm hurt. Show me the answers to my questions. I'm going to the library today, so it begins... now. This is what I said!!

Twenty years later I have put all these pieces of the puzzle together and I want to share with you what this picture looks like now that it's all pieced together.

I do not expect agree acne for the knowledge I have is not the same as you, perceptions matter and each is truth in their own unique way. I just want to share mine, and have you share with me thoughts that expand on the original idea.

So what do you think? :-) may I?

Originally posted by AllIsOne
The Problem Of The Soul by Owen Flanagan.


This is the most profound, challenging, difficult, disturbing book I've ever read about neuroscience and its direct implications regarding "spirituality". There are a lot of commonly accepted assumptions in this thread. After you read it, you would think differently about the Cartesian worldview.

Science has always created problems for traditional ways of seeing things, but now the very attributes that make us human--free will, the permanence of personal identity, the existence of the soul--are threatened by the science of the mind. If the mind is the brain, and therefore a physical object subject to deterministic laws, how can we have free will? If most of our thoughts and impulses are unconscious, how can we be morally responsible for what we do? If brains and bodies undergo relentless change, how can our identities be constant? The Problem of the Soul shows the way out of these paradoxes. Framing the conflict in terms of two dominant visions of the mind--the "manifest image" of humanistic philosophy and theology, and the scientific image--Owen Flanagan demonstrates that there is common ground, and that we need not give up our ideas of moral responsibility and personal freedom in order to have an empirically sound view of the human mind. This is a profoundly relevant work of philosophy for the common reader.

Source: www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346118960&sr=1-1&keywords=the+problem+of+the+s oul

So, can you tell us what was the common ground he found, what is the idea ?

And to MamaJ : of course, go on !

reply to post by SplitInfinity


How would that explain PK or crisis apparitions?

reply to post by gosseyn


Thanks! I'm not sure where to start, but I will begin with what I think the Universe is and expand on the thought.

I see the Universe filled with matter, energy, light, and so on. I see it as alive just as I see the Earth and the other planets alive. They, we, are all made up of the same things.

We, like the Universe are a reflection of light that is expressing itself in many ways.

The Universe seems to be an expanding expression. Literature of all kinds teach me about expression and how the living matter, not yet expounded on the non living matter, expresses it self.

All objects emit electromagnetic radiation as well.

Matter, then could also be said to be an expression of thought!

We see matter can blink in and out of existence. The nature ( key word nature) of matter is to express... To come in and out of self expressing that which it/we think.

Once the thought comes in, Our voices send off harmonic waves of the highest light forms and each vibration then manifests in the material world.

The laws that govern are governed for the good of nature whether it's seen in us, another living creature, plant, atom, Universe, and so on.

The human can be said to be of mind, body and soul. We are half material and half light, expressing in many ways.

The only " right" way of expression is our perception of how the order of nature should be.

We are matter that's a transferable energy with each expression we give to the seen world, and to the unseen world because the Universal law here is cause and effect.

For the religious Christain person it can be viewed from the Bible that creation began, before man. God was said to be void, then a thought aroused within, he spoke,he moved, and this flow continues today. God is then seen to be expressing himself through matter and or creation of the very first expression.

The Bible then becomes stories ( expressions) of mankind and the struggles man has undergone since the beginning of.... Man.

When the term was used, " I am", it was an expression.

" I am" , The First Adam ( atom) (Jesus, joshua, what ever entity you associate him with) ... He was asked to name objects as an expression....

" Name it" you are, I am, we are...... An expression.

I'm sitting outside on my deck, typing this. I see my deck is worn out and needs to be sealed. To me, it's a way of expression through the worn out wood that it needs to be tended to. My tomatoe plants are expressing them self with the blooms, and now comes the fruitation. I see it, in all it's glory and cannot wait to taste it! When I look at the tomatoe plant though, it is expressing something to me. It's an expression all on its own, but with me being the owner/ observer I can take commune with it and know that I too see the expression it's sending.

It's going to be tasty! Right?

With that said though.... There are probabilities. It could rain, I could water it, I could water it too much, I could neglect it, it could become dis eased and so on. Even though I KNOW the nature of the plant, there are possible outcomes and many factors are at play.

What I do with the expression/ expressions indeed matters.

Expressions tend to inspire as well, hence the spiritual, philosophical ideas, science and so on.

Music soothes my soul. The expressions from the artists are like that of a beautiful painting only the sound resonates with my entire being unlike anything else.

Reading is too an inspiration and a way of expression that keeps me learning each and every second.

It's just the nature of all that is and ever will be, in my opinion. If we can see it, it can be an expression, that ultimately inspires the spirit IF it is good with the nature.

The balance is what I'm seeing is off not only with this planet but every living thing.

The balance of the splitting of not only the atom ( man and woman) but of the light and dark. Darkness is said not able to overcome the light and we see this in science. Photons cannot be trapped, as they are free!

The tipping point is where I see us all at the present time, as it appears when the light divided from the darkness in creation it's not only been expressed in tons of literature in different manners, but it's telling a story of humanity and the nature of all things and of the different possibilities.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by gosseyn

 

Thanks! I'm not sure where to start, but I will begin with what I think the Universe is and expand on the thought.

I see the Universe filled with matter, energy, light, and so on. I see it as alive just as I see the Earth and the other planets alive. They, we, are all made up of the same things.

We, like the Universe are a reflection of light that is expressing itself in many ways.

The Universe seems to be an expanding expression. Literature of all kinds teach me about expression and how the living matter, not yet expounded on the non living matter, expresses it self.

All objects emit electromagnetic radiation as well.

Matter, then could also be said to be an expression of thought!

We see matter can blink in and out of existence. The nature ( key word nature) of matter is to express... To come in and out of self expressing that which it/we think.

Once the thought comes in, Our voices send off harmonic waves of the highest light forms and each vibration then manifests in the material world.

The laws that govern are governed for the good of nature whether it's seen in us, another living creature, plant, atom, Universe, and so on.

The human can be said to be of mind, body and soul. We are half material and half light, expressing in many ways.

The only " right" way of expression is our perception of how the order of nature should be.

We are matter that's a transferable energy with each expression we give to the seen world, and to the unseen world because the Universal law here is cause and effect.

For the religious Christain person it can be viewed from the Bible that creation began, before man. God was said to be void, then a thought aroused within, he spoke,he moved, and this flow continues today. God is then seen to be expressing himself through matter and or creation of the very first expression.

The Bible then becomes stories ( expressions) of mankind and the struggles man has undergone since the beginning of.... Man.

When the term was used, " I am", it was an expression.

" I am" , The First Adam ( atom) (Jesus, joshua, what ever entity you associate him with) ... He was asked to name objects as an expression....

" Name it" you are, I am, we are...... An expression.

I'm sitting outside on my deck, typing this. I see my deck is worn out and needs to be sealed. To me, it's a way of expression through the worn out wood that it needs to be tended to. My tomatoe plants are expressing them self with the blooms, and now comes the fruitation. I see it, in all it's glory and cannot wait to taste it! When I look at the tomatoe plant though, it is expressing something to me. It's an expression all on its own, but with me being the owner/ observer I can take commune with it and know that I too see the expression it's sending.

It's going to be tasty! Right?

With that said though.... There are probabilities. It could rain, I could water it, I could water it too much, I could neglect it, it could become dis eased and so on. Even though I KNOW the nature of the plant, there are possible outcomes and many factors are at play.

What I do with the expression/ expressions indeed matters.

Awesome! Thanks for this post. To directly understand without a doubt the expression conveyed. Every unique expression all part of an infinite single expression. That is Truth! You express it beautifully. All signal no noise!

Originally posted by MamaJ
Expressions tend to inspire as well, hence the spiritual, philosophical ideas, science and so on.

It's just the nature of all that is and ever will be, in my opinion. If we can see it, it can be an expression, that ultimately inspires the spirit IF it is good with the nature.

If it is honest it's expression is conveying the source expression. Hi signal expressions inspire, powered by will of the source expression!

The balance is what I'm seeing is off not only with this planet but every living thing.

Something dramatic and novel is coming. More dramatic!


The balance of the splitting of not only the atom ( man and woman) but of the light and dark. Darkness is said not able to overcome the light and we see this in science. Photons cannot be trapped, as they are free!

The tipping point is where I see us all at the present time, as it appears when the light divided from the darkness in creation it's not only been expressed in tons of literature in different manners, but it's telling a story of humanity and the nature of all things and of the different possibilities.


No doubt! And there is no doubt it's our (humankind's) story. And there's a beginning and an end to the story, not necessarily of matter.. but humankind as we've defined it. Both are becoming clearer I'd say as the delusion and denial become apparent. We are more than humankind.

reply to post by rwfresh


This is why I love ATS, I can be understood!

Thank you for the kind words!

A phone call or a visit with a friend of mine can be had, conveyed thoughts can pass back and forth but the understanding is not there. It can be frustrating sometimes!

The story of humankind seems to be playing out. I would blame it on the powers that be, but they are not that powerful in the grand scheme of things.

They did not create our nature nor did they create the cosmos..... This is their story as well.

I could be totally wrong as our perceptions are different and another poster may not see the same thing, but it hit me so hard and I couldn't stop thinking about it yesterday. Words kept coming into my head.

It was wild!!

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by rwfresh

 

This is why I love ATS, I can be understood!

Thank you for the kind words!

A phone call or a visit with a friend of mine can be had, conveyed thoughts can pass back and forth but the understanding is not there. It can be frustrating sometimes!

The story of humankind seems to be playing out. I would blame it on the powers that be, but they are not that powerful in the grand scheme of things.

They did not create our nature nor did they create the cosmos..... This is their story as well.

I could be totally wrong as our perceptions are different and another poster may not see the same thing, but it hit me so hard and I couldn't stop thinking about it yesterday. Words kept coming into my head.

It was wild!!

Right on! When i read your message last night i totally connected to it 100%. The substance of the message was completely communicated. It was an awesome experience. Like i said, all signal no noise. It's like an experience of synchronicity. A totally novel understanding of an existing memory. A direct message from the root expression. A whisper in the ear saying "remember me?!". Had that last night reading your message so thank you. When you have that kind of seamless relationship with creation like the way you describe, the experience of knowing is beyond intellectual or physical. It is projection and reception of pure information. A continuous reminder of how you as creation are creating.

It doesn't matter.. you may read the same message in a year and not have the same experience.. but it came through to me. I get what you were experiencing.

Powers that be and everything else are all part of the story that ends. We told ourselves in the beginning this is how it was going to be. The information remains intact and available constantly. It's proof of itself. When you can dial in and communicate it it is awesome.

Peace and Love! thanks again.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

How would that explain PK or crisis apparitions?

This is how.
In a Multiversal System...there are INFINITE GROUPS of Divergent Universal Realities. Each Group such as our Group...is comprised of Infinite Versions of OUR Universes Physical Realities and Natural Laws. Thus any Universal Reality from our Group would have the same Physics and Space/Time Geometry...but each of these Divergent Universal States would be Infinite Possible Versions of One Universal State...thus Infinite Versions of You and Me.

Now there are in the Multiverse Infinite GROUPS. Each one of these GROUPS are comprised of Infinite Universal Realities which are completely different or Alien in Nature to our Group. So a different Group would have Universes where the Laws of Physics and Geometry are either so different or may not even be considered Physics or Space/Time Geometry as we know it.

So think of each of these Groups as a TREE and each Infinite in number branches of these TREES represents a Divergent Universal Reality that is Specific in Construct to Each Tree and ONLY that Tree. So we have a Multiverse with a Infinite Forest with a Infinite number of Trees or Groups...and within each of these Trees or Groups that Tree or Group has it's own Infinite in number Universes which we will represent as a Branch.

Every so often...Branches from One Tree or Group...grow to intersect with the Branches or Group of another Trees Branches. Thus the Branches of Two Universal Realities that have different Natural Laws intersect and they form a bond. It is this bond or Universal Branch Entanglement that allows for something like an Apparition which is not a measurable quantitative thing to appear or even perhaps access our Minds.
Split Infinity

reply to post by gosseyn


Basically, brain matter is capable of producing all the phenomena that we would commonly associate with mind, and soul. Flanagan thinks the soul is a myth - and he has plenty of evidence to support his claim.

Neuroscience has made many leaps, but it is still in its infancy. I cannot even imagine what we will know about the brain in ten years.

reply to post by rwfresh


Exactly, I got chills when reading your message this morning. It IS a remembrance that our source has at our finger tips all day, every day and so glad I've been able to share such an experience with someone who gets it. I know I said that already but it's true. Not many people are on the same level because our journeys are so different.

I've been seeking all of my life for the entire picture to make sense. Through the expressions of each subject, we can clearly see not only pieces of truth, but when combined with the spirit it becomes such a truth, there is absolutely no way to deny it.

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by gosseyn

 

Basically, brain matter is capable of producing all the phenomena that we would commonly associate with mind, and soul. Flanagan thinks the soul is a myth - and he has plenty of evidence to support his claim.

Neuroscience has made many leaps, but it is still in its infancy. I cannot even imagine what we will know about the brain in ten years.

Yes, it is exactly what I wanted to say with this thread. There is a whole tangible universe that we haven't yet completely understood, still there are people who like to jump to final conclusions and invoke an "immaterial realm". I would say that this is the story of science through the centuries : always redefining and pushing the frontiers, and there have always been people to invent fairy tales to describe what lies behind those temporary frontiers.

And to be clear, I am not saying that an immaterial realm which would be completely different in nature from the material realm doesn't exist, but I am saying that so far, we have no reason to assume that there's one.

I guess I am the perfect agnostic on this one.

Originally posted by gosseyn

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by gosseyn

 

Basically, brain matter is capable of producing all the phenomena that we would commonly associate with mind, and soul. Flanagan thinks the soul is a myth - and he has plenty of evidence to support his claim.

Neuroscience has made many leaps, but it is still in its infancy. I cannot even imagine what we will know about the brain in ten years.

Yes, it is exactly what I wanted to say with this thread. There is a whole tangible universe that we haven't yet completely understood, still there are people who like to jump to final conclusions and invoke an "immaterial realm". I would say that this is the story of science through the centuries : always redefining and pushing the frontiers, and there have always been people to invent fairy tales to describe what lies behind those temporary frontiers.

And to be clear, I am not saying that an immaterial realm which would be completely different in nature from the material realm doesn't exist, but I am saying that so far, we have no reason to assume that there's one.

I guess I am the perfect agnostic on this one.

can we imagine an immaterial realm? how something that by our standards doesnt physically exist, exists?
to them would they be physical? if not, what would be the physics of their interactions, and the dimensions and scale of their realm?