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A question for all christians

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posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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this is a question for all christians here. I am not a very religous person (i find it hard for me to stick to one thing, i like to move around alot and cant go to church ect). I do belive in jesus christ but never go to church or really pray or anything like that. Now my question is, if the world was going to end and you turned to god and started praying for him to save your soul, what if you where only praying to him becouse you where scared of going to hell would he still let you in to heaven? You arent really showing love for god just showing fear of going to hell. I am kind of like that, i fear going to hell but dont know how strong my love is for god. Can some one answer this?




posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 02:43 PM
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Saved by grace, not by works.



posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 03:59 PM
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YES YOU WOULD...

i think it is one of the commandments or beatitudes that says "fear of the Lord" is alright...

but then again, for this conversation, we are assuming that christianity is the "truth" correct???





posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 05:39 PM
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hey z2525:

SmokenMirrors and others might think that a "Christian" is saved "by Grace" (whatever that means), but R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (the supposed "Jesus" that "Christians" worship as a god, or as the son of a god or as a Jewish Messiah or a Greek Christ or whatever) actually said something quite different that Paul's heresies later proclaimed:

"Let your light so shine before the faces of men, that they might SEE your GOOD WORKS (mitzvot) and give glory to my Father in Heaven..."

He didn't say "let that they may see your grace..." etc.

In other words, "Jesus' idea of salvation or "a way to inherit eternal life in the Tiqqun or Regeneration, i.e. in the Last Days, was to obey the Torah of Moses (mitzvah means "commandment": BAR MITZVAH means literally, a SON of the COMMANDMENT).

There was a split in the early Churches between the Jesus-James founded Nazorean Torah Abider- (Judaeisers) Synagogues in Palestine and places like Damascus and Antioch, and all those "heretical" Pauline "salvation by grace" camp of the Diaspora Greek communities scattered in the more Greek minded gentile-tolerant synagogues throughout the Empire.

Most Christians today came to "Christianity" by the Greek Speaking Tarsus-born "Paul" (a Roman citizen yet!) , and not by "Iesous" (R. Yeshoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) who disliked the goyim as unfit for the Kingdom unless they were circumcised and took up the yoke of the commandments of Moses.

Remember the story in Luke? When a rich "young prince" came up to him and asked him "Good Rabbi what must I do to be worthy of the Life?" the Rabbi answered, "...YOU KNOW THE MITZVOT of MOSES... DO THEM..." and then of course tells the young man to sell everything he owns and put the money in the poor box in the temple and "follow him"....

Notice: R. Yehoshua didn't say, "someone after me, a Greek Born Jew, Saul of Tarsus by name, who never met me nor will be ever meet me in the flesh, whose name will be honoured among the Goyim-Gentiles, but will fight tooth and nail with my own disciples who knew me and lived with me and understood my teachings, and will fight bitterly with my very own blood brother James, so that he might teach a foregin doctrine of Salvation by Grace to the goyim gentiles"...

He said "obey the Mitzvot of Moses... and you will have eternal life".

He said things like "not one JOT nor ONE TITTLE of the Torah of Moses shall be altered: everything must be obeyed to the last detail..."

or "Think you that the Son of Man has come to abolish the Torah of Moses? The Son of Man has NOT come to ABOLISH the TORAH OF MOSES, but to ADD TO IT THAT IT MIGHT BE COMPLETED."

He later was supposed to have commanded his disciples "to preach the Good News of the Coming Kingdom of God to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel scattered among the Goyim" and that "he had sheep not of this fold" i.e. diaspora Jews scattered in the Roman empire...which the Messiah was supposed to arrange to bring back to Palestine "in the Last Days" (trito Isaiah, chapters 56-66)

His own blood brother James (R. Yakkov bar Yosef, ha Tsadddiq or "James the Just" or "James the Righteous One") even declared FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (i.e. Mitzvoth, i.e obeying the laws of Moses) IS DEAD.

Those "early Christians" who talked openly with Goyim Gentiles (whom "Jesus" openly called "DOGS" in Matthew chapter 15) and even allowed them to sit with the "elect of Israel" enter "into the Community of the Way" without Jewish circumcision or Jewish kashruth diets sided in with Paul's heretical "goyim loving" preaching-----whom the Jesus founded-Nazorean churches used to call "the Synagogue of Satan, calling themselves Jews, but are not Jews.." such as we find in the Nazorean theology expressed in the anti-pauline Book of Revelation....

(Paul's "salvation by grace alone" type churches were considered heretical by Jesus' own Nazorean churches in Jerusalem and Antioch for example).

Maybe SmokenMirrors and his ilk should study a little Galilean Aramaic, or read their sacred texts a little closer for a change: their eyes might be opened a little to the historical Jewish Roots of that 1st century sword wielding Galilean Rabbi that so many people call by a made up Greek name "Iesous"....who ended up strung up on a gibbet after a failed coup attempt against Rome on the 100th anniversary of the Invasion of the Roman Army into Palestine....

The Times of the Gentiles were over, he said. These be the Days of Vengeance of our God: Repent, and Believe in the Kingdom of God.

But look how all that turned out.



posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 07:37 PM
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Well, both arguments are correct in their context.

Question: "Can one be saved by works alone???" No Way!!
Question: "Is any human perfect and has not sinned???" No Way!!

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God'

So for anyone of us to be saved means that God needs to show grace (as we are not perfect and he is willing to let us into a perfect environment)

But lets go into a little more detail to clarify things.

Question: 'Will only christians be saved??' No way!!

God will judge people on what they know. God is a god of love, he comes to save the lost. (Read the story of Jesus healing the roman centurian's slave in the NT. How this story relates, ask me)

Question: 'Is it harder for christians to be saved?' You bet!!

Christians generally like to boast they have the truth. Well, seeing I am one, I agree that we have enough of the truth to be saved, however, it means that we will be judged according to what we do know and what we did as a result of knowing the truth. It talks about luke warm christians in revelation, and God spitting them out of his mouth. It is better to be hot or cold than to be luke warm.

So then, how does someone that has heard the gospel of christ then be saved?

Lets answer this by asking another question. Im having an engagement party soon, who do I invite? My close friends right?? This is the same with heaven. God would like to invite everyone, but at the end of the day, he invites his friends. Like you, God will invite people that have bothered to return his calls, talks to him etc...Friends are usually people that we have something in common with right??

So in the end it comes down to having a relationship with God. The consequence of having a relationship with him is that you will want to keep his commandments (the works as Amadeus so kindly pointed out).
Works simply by themselves will not get you into heaven and this is what the pharisees of the day and still some religions/denominations of today are preaching.

Can you imagine what heaven would be like if only one person got there by works? "Hey guys, you should have seen what I did on earth, I helped this guy, and gave this much to the poor etc..." Would you ever hear the end of it, he would never shut up...!!

Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Trying to keep Gods commandments without a relationship with him is a miserable ambitition, as it will be unnatural and such an effort to do. If you do it the other way around, then it becomes a lot more natural and a joy to do.

So to answer your question, can you be saved if you beg at the last minute? My answer is only God knows your heart so who am I to say yes or no. He saved the theif on the cross after all.

I would prefer to make time and get to know him and become his friend, then I will get an invite to his party!


I have noticed that there is a big push at the moment toward last day events and the end of the world. My opinion is, everyone that has lived on earth has been living in the last days, the last days of their individual lives. Some humans die at birth, some in their teens, some of old age. No-one knows when their time is up. Live each day as if it is your last!!!

You asked, I gave my opinion....


[edit on 12-10-2004 by shmick25]



posted on Oct, 12 2004 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by zi2525
this is a question for all christians here. I am not a very religous person (i find it hard for me to stick to one thing, i like to move around alot and cant go to church ect). I do belive in jesus christ but never go to church or really pray or anything like that. Now my question is, if the world was going to end and you turned to god and started praying for him to save your soul, what if you where only praying to him becouse you where scared of going to hell would he still let you in to heaven? You arent really showing love for god just showing fear of going to hell. I am kind of like that, i fear going to hell but dont know how strong my love is for god. Can some one answer this?


There are a few things here that I would address before I answer your question.

Going to Church:

The important thing is that you seek to understand what it is God wants from you. Whether you do this in church, on your own, with your family, with friends, or with strangers is your choice.

Amadeus spoke of commandments. Following those are important. However, all of the commandments can be simplified:

Mat 22:36-40
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Following the commandments is as simple as understanding love.

Understanding love is not something which requires going to church. Though going to church can help you understand. And, perhaps, when your understanding grows, someone may need to you to help them understand. Those are two important purposes of going to church. Learning and teaching.


Prayer:

You can use pre-made prayers or a long prayer you wrote from the heart.

Whether you are seeking forgiveness, giving thanks or giving praise, the most important part of prayer is sincerity.

Prayer does not have to be a time consuming and complicated. A simple "I am sorry. Thank you. I love you." works too. I simply take the time to say some or all of those 8 words to myself whenever I think about God.


Strength of your love:

As you learn and begin to understand what love is, you will come to realize that your love is as strong as you let it be. Love is like a lantern in your heart. Its light and heat is constant. It is the dirt on the panes off glass of the lantern that prevent its light from being seen, not only by you but by others. That "dirt" is what you let accumulate. Doubt, fear, hate, envy confusion-- all of these are "dirt" that covers the light within.

Amadeus also made several referances to Matthew chapter 5. I suggest reading the whole chapter in context.

It is the light of love that is being talked about. This is what you are to let shine before the eyes of men. This is what cannot be hidden. This is that which all the commandments hang. Love.

God loves sinner and saint. But only those who return his love are saved. It is God's love that saves. It is returning this love that saves.
Salvation is a gift given to all. Whether we choose to accept the gift is our choice. It is our choice to Love God or not.

Good works are a natural result of this love for God. Love is meant to be shared with all. What better way of sharing your love with others than by helping them?


Now to answer your question:

Only God knows what is in the heart of a man. He will judge not on what is said or what is done but by what is within one's heart. Could the person in your question go to heaven. Most certainly. God is a forgiving God. Could the person in your question go to hell? Most certainly. God is a vengeful God. It all depends what is in the man's heart.

That being said, I would have to ask "Why wait?" The choice is simple. You can let fear guide your actions, or let love guide your actions. Wouldn't you rather spend your time on this earth living with love and not living with fear?



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 07:14 AM
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yes the best way is to ask God yourself. He is not distant, He is everywhere. He is your spiritual Father and He loves you with an infinite love, no matter what you have done.

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Matthew 7:7-11.

God rewards those who seek Him.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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Groupies:

Paul and his "salvation by faith" doctrine was quite opposed to the teachings of "Jesus" who put emphasis on torah-abiding laws for his immediate circle followers. Paul never met "Jesus" and many Christians fail to even recognise this, supposing him to be an "apostle" which was a self proclaimed title.

I just wanted to point out that the Jewish Nazorean "messianic" synagogue-churches founded by "Iesous" (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) and his brother "James" (R. Yakkov bar Yosef ha Tsaddiq) in Palestine and the immediate environs (Damascus, Antioch) were Torah-abiding (Salvation by "Works = Mitzvot) "Judaeising synagogues who believed like the Dead Sea Scroll community in preparing for the Messiah "in the Last Days".

When Israel was destroyed in AD 70, most of the Nazorean churches were destroyed as well. Paul's churches survived. That is why "Pauls" supposed writings are in the New Testament today. A man who never even met iesous and who called the disciples bad names (Galatians chapter 2: "in Jerusalem...those so called Pillars, that James and that Kephah-Peter!")

The Gospel of Matthew is a Judaieising-Nazorean type torah-supporting document reflecting the Nazoreans at Antioch:

Paul fought bitterly with these Nazorean Judaiesers as he called them: he never met Iesous ("Jesus") in life, and so could not argue with him--but the two of them would not have seen eye to eye, since they were each born at different parts of the Jewish world in the 1st century (Paul was a Roman Citizen born in Tarsus, the capital of Cilicia: "Jesus: would have considered him to be a "shaqal" (i.e. a jackal/fox) co-towing to pagan Rome by retaining such civil titles---and speaking all that goyim Greek, well....

Read through Paul's (supposed) letters (or fragments of his correspondence more correctly) which reflect what James and "Iesous" would have called heresy: the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone", which was used to draw as many gentile goyim into the Pauline "churches" as possible scattered throughout the Roman Empire--because they were scattered "abroad" away from Palestine, they were not under the "jurisdiction" of James (despite Acts chapter 15) and lived after the destruction of Israel in AD 70 by Rome by virtue of their location away from the war-theatre.

These Nazorean Judaeisers in Palestine (before the Jewish War AD 66-70) were at open theological war with the Pauline churches who actually talked to gentile goyim and even let them into their "churches" : Paul's gentile oriented "synagogues of Satan who call themselves Jews when they are not Jews" were in the habit of telling their "gentile converts" that they did not have to be circumcised or keep the mitzvot of the Torah and could still be "worthy of the life"...totally in contradiction to what "Iesous" and the "disciples" (all or most of them were Galileans) taught about "works" (read the book of James, written by or conceived within the same circles as "James" the brother of Iesous: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD...)

If you want to be a "follower of Iesous" today you must obey the Torah as he commanded---although you'd be hard pressed since you cannot obey the 613 laws a temple altar and priests to burn all those sacrifices you are supposed to do.

But you can hardly be called a follower of "Iesous" i.e. a "christian" if you follow Paul, a man who never met "iesous" and whose preaching was contrary to the man's core message of torah-obeying works/action.

"Iesous" knew of no "salvation by faith" doctrine.

His Torah abiding-"Nazorean" churches preached salvation by Works. This is reflected in his brother's epistle ("of james") in the NT.

The peculiar Pauline notion of "salvation by faith in Iesous alone" was a later concept derived from certain Dead Sea Scroll notions--by a group who lived without a sacrificial temple and had to find a way around that fact ("for they were saved by their Faith in the Teacher of Righteousness", in the Habakkuk Pesher, i.e. . concepts that were written as early as 100 BC)

The "salvation by faith alone" was a foreign development among Paul's gentile churches specifically engineered for the sake of Paul's later non-Nazorean" non "Jesian" audience, i.e. for non Palestinian gentiles who did not want to maul their bodies by circumcision or worry about what foods to eat or what kinds of clothing material to wear etc.

Paul wanted numbers: he bent the rules to get them. And the original churches of "jesus" and his brother were mostly destroyed after AD 70 when Rome put Israel to the torch and destroyed most of the pillars of the original "church".

What Christians today believe is a hybrid religion, a product of Paul, not Jesus.

Think about that for a while. Then come back to this thread.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:05 AM
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I always avoid the words of Paul. He was against the Christ I feel. I've many times read of dreams and visions that speak against Paul.

Then again, we may ALL be doomed - we cannot, in todays time, follow the laws of moses. When was your last sacrifice?



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:34 AM
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Amadeas - You say tht Jesus felt the laws of moses were to be obayed to the letter, yet when asked about the consumption of pork which is forbidden by Mosiac law he states that it is not forbidden. Is this not a contradction?



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 09:01 AM
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good morning there zi2525

you question is loaded with conditional prayer!

i'm not a Christian follower

but the aspect of INTENTION plays a very important part of prayer.

**in the example presented, the petitioner only created a babble of
phrases, which at best were in conflict with the heart & mind...by any
definition...that was not 'prayer' uttered by your hypothetical christian.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 09:34 AM
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Nope, you'd go to hell if this was the case. If your sole reason to follow God/Jesus is not going to hell, you've missed the boat and the point, so to speak. You need to sit down with yourself and really discern your relationship with God and how strong it is. Ask God to help you, He is always there for you and gives His love freely to you but, He won't ever force His love on you. You have to willingly accept it and in your heart follow Him with all your being. Your relationship with Christ is more important than "if your going to hell". Concentrate on Him and everything else will fall in place.

Udio,
What does St stand for in your name?

[edit on 10-13-2004 by Cearbhall]



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by Amadeus
The Gospel of Matthew is a Judaieising-Nazorean type torah-supporting document reflecting the Nazoreans at Antioch:

...

If you want to be a "follower of Iesous" today you must obey the Torah as he commanded---although you'd be hard pressed since you cannot obey the 613 laws a temple altar and priests to burn all those sacrifices you are supposed to do.


I suggest anyone who wishes to confirm or dispute this to read Matthew Chapters 5-7 and summarize what is being taught in 50 words or less.



[edit on 13-10-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 10:36 AM
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zi2525, for Christians the answer to your question is provided here:

Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

and here:

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by zi2525
this is a question for all christians here. I am not a very religous person (i find it hard for me to stick to one thing, i like to move around alot and cant go to church ect). I do belive in jesus christ but never go to church or really pray or anything like that. Now my question is, if the world was going to end and you turned to god and started praying for him to save your soul, what if you where only praying to him becouse you where scared of going to hell would he still let you in to heaven? You arent really showing love for god just showing fear of going to hell. I am kind of like that, i fear going to hell but dont know how strong my love is for god. Can some one answer this?

I dont think we need love for God.

Threaten him instead.

I would say that if he doesnt accept me into heaven, I will join Hells Legions and make it my personal mission to bash down the gates to Heaven and have as hobby to pick the wings of angels. If he accepts it I will fight for good instead.

Its a win win situation for God if he accept me.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 11:28 AM
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what if you where only praying to him becouse you where scared of going to hell would he still let you in to heaven?


By Christian standards, you could be an axe murderer, but if you sought forgiveness, and accepted Jesus as your savior, then yes, you'd be allowed in....so says the good book...

For me, this however, is one of Christianity's biggest faults. Catholicism gets around this a bit with the idea of Purgatory at least.

Personally, I just try to lead a good and moral life, and I do not follow any "ism". The simple rule is treating others as I would like to be treated myself. When all is said and done, if I then appear before God, Budda, Krishna, Allah, whatever....if I've led as good a life as I could have led, and they then don't let me in, then well, they aren't worthy of my reverence, and I'll gladly do a swan dive into the Lake of Fire myself...



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by smokenmirrors
Saved by grace, not by works.

So judas is saved?



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 12:11 PM
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I have yet to speak to ANYONE that has confirmed the notion of Hell or Heaven...you? Anyone?

Btw, what is with the notion of being "saved" anyhow? Is there historical significance behind being "saved"?

As for the Judas question... I would like to raise that question and ask the very same about Hitler...
Was Hitler saved?

If you answer NO, then let me ask a few questions:

* Was it Hitler that really killed people or was it those who put him in office, allowed him to stay there doing as he saw fit?

* Was anyone present at Hitler's death to confirm whether he asked for forgiveness or not? If not, then I suppose that the only reason that people say that he is in Hell is because 'he' committed such atrocities and its totally unthinkable to believe that he might or may have asked for forgiveness?

Just curious....

Hell....where is that place anyhow?
BTW, if your going to preach about Hell and that there is a Hell, please, please utilize the ATS Search feature and locate those multiples of "Hell" past topics and, forgive the pun, resurrect one of them, k?




seekerof

[edit on 13-10-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 12:14 PM
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Facinating discussion, it's good to see people stepping up to the plate on this one. From the sounds of it in the last days there will be all kinds of praying and asking for forgiveness. I can picture God saying "where were you yesterday? When the world was not ending, you did not want to know me". You know those 'Fair-Weathered Friends' who come along when they need money, a favor, etc. but are never there when you need them. How do you feel about them? I think this relationship would be very similar.

zi2525, I know where you're coming from. I read the Bible at home for about thirteen years before I found a church I was excited about. They are out there, keep looking.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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zi2525

Nobody, Christian or not can say yes or no; only God can. The Lord knows about your heart. If you are asking this question, maybe God is trying to tell you something. If you truly want to know, pray. Read a version of the bible that is easier to understand, research. God will tell you in your heart what the truth is if you seek it out.

As for people assuming to know what the actions of God might be - we know nothing, God knows everything; we think we know, but we don't.

I personally believe that in order to know God better, you must research it yourself because it is an individual thing. You are not going to live eternally just because you come from a family of Christians. Again, God knows what is in your heart.






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