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Originally posted by WhoKnows100
Without the Church, what IS the Bible? Who says what books go in the Bible? Who says how to understand said books? Mere men? On whose authority? Protestants claim inspiration by the Holy Ghost and have split like cells into 40k+ "denominations". The Catholic Church remains One. Same doctrine being taught for 2k years. Hmm..
If you could understand why God "confused" the language at Babel and scattered the people, then apply that same lesson that He provides for us in the gospels. The "confusion" of languages at Pentecost was the same thing done by God to take down Babel. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the same thing as destroying the "tower", Jesus judged it and destroyed the temple which had become too powerful with Rome. Jesus said that the sheep would be scattered. He came down to Earth, just as God descended to see Babel, and passed judgement in both places.
He scattered the sheep and "confused" the language when He destroyed the latest incarnation of Babel - Jerusalem. So knowing that, He didn't scatter the sheep and confuse the language to have them regroup into a physical monstrosity of a church! He scattered the sheep and confused the language so that His children would go out into the world! This is why we see epistles mentioning "from your brother in Rome or Babylon" (my paraphrasing). The Apostles knew that they had been scattered to preach the whole gospel. They were to be His body out in the world.
But what did the RCC do? It formed a behemoth organisation in direct opposition to God's commands to spread out and multiply. It grew into another powerful Babel claiming itself as Christ on Earth, killing true Saints in this Earth that wouldn't bow to it instead of the True God.
Jesus said that the shepherd would be struck and the sheep scattered. Christians are not to form a Babel, because Babel is made from bricks not stones. The last version of Babel is nearly here, with Godless men forming their One World Order and it's "one language" of a united religion and culture. The fact that the RCC is front and centre courting Muslims and other religions should clearly point out the nature of the RCC and it's role in the last Babel.
He will teach you the Truth if you are interested.
Acts of the Apostles 2:1-12
[1] And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. [5] Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, [10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,
[11] Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. [12] And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this?
In lots of ways I see your point of view and I respect your opinions but I don't believe that any group of people have the right of excuse in pointing out other groups mistakes. The Roman Catholic Church should (in my opinion) be responsible and be penalized for their own conduct and the same applies to other organizations.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
In lots of ways I see your point of view and I respect your opinions but I don't believe that any group of people have the right of excuse in pointing out other groups mistakes. The Roman Catholic Church should (in my opinion) be responsible and be penalized for their own conduct and the same applies to other organizations.
Because of the Church's views on abortion, gay marriage, and the like, the liberal media has aggressively pursued this story and publicized it to the nth degree. The Church is under attack. My point is that you don't see the same kind of attacks in any other religious denomination nor even secular organization, even though the percentages are the same or even worse than the Church for this kind of abuse.
Again, the Church has made radical changes for the positive regarding these matters. Most of these accusations are from 30-40 years ago. Priests today are under much different scrutiny and screening than they were in decades past. Impulse training, background checks, and the like are the norm now.
Most of these priests are good, holy men, and only a tiny percentage are of this criminal class. The media would have you believe otherwise.
About 4 percent of U.S. priests ministering from 1950 to 2002 were accused of sex abuse with a minor, according to the first comprehensive national study of the issue.
The study said that 4,392 clergymen—almost all priests—were accused of abusing 10,667 people, with 75 percent of the incidents taking place between 1960 and 1984.
In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than eighty priests labeled by the media as "pedophiles" are actually guilty of molesting young children.
in scripture God says no man goes to him except through his son Jesus, that is the only way to salvation/forgivness- yet a priest states he can absolve you of your sins by saying x hail marys and our fathers? direct contradiction to scripture.
the answer Catholicism uses to defend point 1 is that they are annointed as gods representatives on earth. They are the Vicar of the son of God or VICARIVS FILII DEI which is printed on the papal triple crown, and using the latin numeric system, the latin title amounts to six hundred and sixty six- the number of the beast.
ps i am not an active follower of any denomination but i like to keep an open mind on all aspects of life and enjoy learning
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
in scripture God says no man goes to him except through his son Jesus, that is the only way to salvation/forgivness- yet a priest states he can absolve you of your sins by saying x hail marys and our fathers? direct contradiction to scripture.
No, Christ gave his disciples the authority to cast out the demonic. Priests, as direct successors to the Apostles and Christ Himself, have been granted the same authority - to cast out the demonic. This is what is happening within the confessional - the casting out of demonic influences and sin by the priest.
driving out demons and possessions is one thing, absolving sin is another and no man has gods authority to do that- absolving sin and driving out demons are 2 separate things. confessionals are no about drining out demons at all- have you ever seen a person freed from a possession? then youll know that doesnt go on in a confessional booth.
Mary, after all, was the Mother of Christ Himself. The "Hail Mary" prayers of the Rosary which you criticize is taken directly from the New Testament when the Archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary.
Mary was not the mother of christ, she was the vessel used to deliver an imaculate conception, stating hail mary is raising her to an idolatry level and the 10 commandments preach to not bear witness to false gods or craven idols.
the answer Catholicism uses to defend point 1 is that they are annointed as gods representatives on earth. They are the Vicar of the son of God or VICARIVS FILII DEI which is printed on the papal triple crown, and using the latin numeric system, the latin title amounts to six hundred and sixty six- the number of the beast.
Doubtful on the 666 charge. Christ appointed Peter as the Rock of His Church, to guide the flock of believers when Christ later ascended to Heaven. The Popes are all in direct succession to Peter, and hence, Christ. All this is very much biblical. Christ appointed Peter as his successor, and directed the disciples to preach the Good News to the entire world.
Christ also said to get behind thee satan to peter after he denied him three times- this has been argued backwards and forwards- notwithstanding this- the popes are not a direct succession to peter as they are merely persons whom choose to follow this path and enter into the faith, schooling etc.
ps i am not an active follower of any denomination but i like to keep an open mind on all aspects of life and enjoy learning
No, an open mind would involve quoting from a reputable theological source with serious academic credentials, not the ramblings of an anti-Catholic bigot who happened to post on the Internet to sway the gullible and naive.
Originally posted by Augustine62
ALL salvation is THROUGH the Church, .
with a lot of reference from catholic publications, and an open mind looks to all sources, not just those advocated by those who give acknowledgement and surpress the views of those that disagree with their theory.
Catholocism has warped the initial concept of christianity when the emporer saw how popular these teachings were, bastardised it into hidden paganism (see the real meaning of christmas) in order to unify the people and hence control them more effectively
Originally posted by Augustine62
ALL salvation is THROUGH the Church, .
Can you cite where in the Bible it says this?
Originally posted by jammybunn
Catholocism has warped the initial concept of christianity when the emporer saw how popular these teachings were, bastardised it into hidden paganism (see the real meaning of christmas) in order to unify the people and hence control them more effectively
reply to post by CookieMonster09
Salvation comes from Christ. The Head of the Roman Catholic Church is Christ Himself. Christ appointed Peter as His successor on Earth -- Peter was the "Rock" on which He would build His Church.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
All other Christian denominations are offshoots of the original Church - The Holy Roman Catholic Church, founded by Christ, Himself.
Tell me. How did the Gentiles gain control of this organization that a Jew built?
wrong actually, the church of Rome is a offshoot of the Greek Orthodox....
Originally posted by spoor
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
All other Christian denominations are offshoots of the original Church - The Holy Roman Catholic Church, founded by Christ, Himself.
wrong actually, the church of Rome is a offshoot of the Greek Orthodox....
Originally posted by Augustine62
Originally posted by spoor
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
All other Christian denominations are offshoots of the original Church - The Holy Roman Catholic Church, founded by Christ, Himself.
wrong actually, the church of Rome is a offshoot of the Greek Orthodox....
The Orthodox do not have a successor of St. Peter, but rather, Apostolic succession from the other Apostles which is the only thing giving them valid Sacraments. St. Peter is the *head of the Church and his successor denotes the True Church: the Roman Catholic Church. All branches/rites in unity with the Roman Catholic Church are valid, i.e. Eastern Catholics, etc.
The Bishop of Rome, St. Peter's final position before being martyred, is the successor. Pope Benedict XVI is the current Bishop of Rome and by default the Vicar of Christ.
Originally posted by Augustine62
St. Peter is the head of the Church and his successor denotes the True Church: the Roman Catholic Church.
Pope Benedict XVI is the current Bishop of Rome and by default the Vicar of Christ.
Wrong the church of Rome is NOT the 'true church"
Only too those that worship him.
Originally posted by spoor
Originally posted by Augustine62
St. Peter is the head of the Church and his successor denotes the True Church: the Roman Catholic Church.
Wrong the church of Rome is NOT the 'true church"
Pope Benedict XVI is the current Bishop of Rome and by default the Vicar of Christ.
Only too those that worship him.edit on 9-9-2012 by spoor because: (no reason given)
Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles. Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail. Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ. Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father. Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head. Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).
"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190) [interesting note: St. Mark's Gospel, being the testimony of St. Peter, shows Peter's humility in including the denial of Christ. I think it's safe to say that many would have left that bit out.
"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).