Does the Catholic Church teach from the Bible?

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Queen Rania is not from the USA nor was she a movie star. I'm very confused

Like I stated previously, situations and people vary and domestic violence is not a Middle Eastern issue, it's a "World Wide Issue" it comes in all shapes, sizes and colors and sadly has taken both the physical and mental/emotional life of countless women across the globe. But...to relinquish any issue is to get to the source and that means finding the root cause. Kicking someone's rear end might temporarily keep them from harming a woman, but it won't prevent it from happening again and it doesn't stop it from happening to a neighbor we might never speak to either.

My personal motto is, work on the issue close to home or even issues inside our own homes, when those get sorted out, THEN move outward to the neighbors, the people down the street, then branch out into the city, county and state and don't stop until death comes knocking. But we cannot possibly focus on an issue from the West to the East without seeing and solving the issues right under our own noses.

When God slams his fist down (metaphorically) and every man has to stand before HIM and face mistreatment of the woman He gave to him from his very own rib, there is going to be a shame filled judgement hall because not one man on earth right now is doing even remotely at all what has been asked of him, not one! And how do I know? Look around you (near and far) the first sign of a man having lost his TRUE manliness is looking at the state and shape of the women. So you can talk about how strong you are and muscular and that's all fine and good and impressive to the physical eye, but to the spiritual one...How strong are you really?

reply to post by Maymunah

Queen Noor of Jordan (Arabic: جلالة الملكة نور‎) (born Lisa Najeeb Halaby; 23 August 1951) is the last wife and widow of King Hussein of Jordan. She was queen consort of Jordan between 1978 and 1999. Since her husband's death in 1999, she has been queen dowager of Jordan. She carries the style and title of HM Queen Noor of Jordan.
A United States citizen by birth, and of Syrian,[1] English, and Swedish descent, she acquired Jordanian citizenship and renounced her American citizenship at the time of her marriage. As of 2011, she is president of the United World Colleges movement and an advocate of the anti-nuclear weapons proliferation campaign, Global Zero.

That is from Wiki...the Mother of the current King of Jordan. I am surprised you do not know this and that Queen Noor was the Force behind much of Jordan's now progressive State of affairs. Continued...Split Infinity

reply to post by Maymunah
Continued...

You misunderstood my statement about my Physical and Mental abilities. This was not a boast...but a statement directed at how easy some Middle Eastern or even from the U.S. Muslim Men...who get off on slamming around their Wife in front of another Man as they seem to have thought I would be impressed.

It is when I made it clear...TRY THAT WITH ME!....that their Bravado left them and they were now not so Brave and Eager to show their authority when it was ME and not a 110 LBS Female who they are married to and supposed to love, honor and protect.

That is when I saw FEAR in their eyes...and I cannot fully express the loathing I had for them. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Sundowner

Originally posted by Zippidee
Its so misunderstood! We don't worship Mary or the Saints. Frankly I'm tired of this misconception. How many times do those, that know nothing of the Faith, have to be told that we ask for intercession (to pray for us) or (to ask God to forgive us, guide us and grant us the grace and mercy we need). Yes we pray directly to "our Lord" Jesus Christ! No we don't think that salvation comes through Mary or the Saints. Research it and you will understand.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was waiting for someone to say this.
When I pray the rosary, I am praying with Mary, in my eyes. Asking her for intercession.  

1. The RCC traditions of men state that you do pray to Mary and that she is the mother of all living.

 " Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope."

2. The RCC has declared Mary as "Queen over all things (in Heaven)"

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."

3. The RCC exalts Mary as "the Mother of God" and "the head of the mystical body" and "the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

4. The RCC stares that Mary's prayers can and will "deliver our souls from death". 

The body of believers is the ekklēsía "the people called out from the world and to God". Christ Jesus is the head of that body per scripture, not Mary. Just as Eve was taken out of the physical body of Adam, so will the bride of Christ be taken from the body of all believers that are in Christ. There is no "Queen of Heaven" except in the minds of occultists. Per you own church catechism 2679, you do pray TO Mary and believe that "Mary is the mother of all the living" (in direct opposition to Genesis). Millions of Catholics and clergy bow to her. There is such false doctrine within the Catechisms on Mary that there is no excuse for believing them other than the love of the traditions and doctrines of men. The entire New Testament centres on obedience to Our Father and faithfulness to Christ Jesus. Mary is clearly shown in scripture on her journey from non-believer to believer, just like all of us. There is no Queen of Heaven, no "Mother of God", "head of the mystical body" and no Mediatrix. The religion of the RCC is entirely Babylonian in it's paganism, rituals, repetitiveness, sun worship and elevation of Mary as the "Queen of Heaven". 

Jesus demands that you come out of Babylon that ye not be partakers of her sins. Your clergy show their rotten fruit - sustained reports of pedophilia, catechism in direct opposition to scripture, decrees and dogmas directing adoration, prayers and worship to Mary as "Queen Above All" and "Mediatrix". They preach another gospel, a gospel that is not that of the Apostles. Jesus asked us to Worship in Spirit and in Truth, and yet, millions sit in the RCC doing just the opposite. Obedience to God. It doesn't mean anything to a person reciting repetitive rosaries, praying to a Mediatrix, believing in a Queen, and believing that "she can deliver souls". There is no Truth and no obedience to God's clear commands - even to His plea to flee Babylon.

Originally posted by Maymunah

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to define what you understand idolatry to be. We don't worship statues, nor believe the soul of those saints to whom we pray reside in the statues. They are but symbols.

Well for one, believing that a statue bears any kind of life is indeed "idolatry" And that goes along with the claims that the Virgin Mary cries or bleeds etc..

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

(Bowing is not just literally bowing of course, it's symbolic of paying any kind of homage or reverence or veneer to an image made from hands.

Psalm 115:4
Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

I could go on and on with Biblical passages of what I understand an idol to be. I would not have otherwise even known of what an idol was/is without the knowledge given us through the Bible. You can call them "symbols" you can call them anything but they are what they are! God knows better than men.

What necromancy?

Wiki is very informative and I'm almost baffled you don't know what it is, so either you truly don't, or you're playing with me? Nevertheless, it's all up in the Catholic religion.

As for the Crucifix: without Christ on the Cross, it is just an instrument of torture. With Christ remaining on the Cross, it is the tool of Salvation. To simply "start" and "end" in time is to reduce the reality of the Sacrifice. The theology of this is actually sort of deep and I will need to search out some more simple explanations as I'll just bugger it up going from the head.

That's your opinion. To me the cross can be a symbol of a lot of things from torture to love and that's various opinions but once again bearing an image of the Messiah in any form is "idolatry". You'd think that after 2000 years or so that man can lay these foolish things to rest and worship God in spirit and truth, but evidently not.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Also, per your avatar, are you Shi'a or Sunni? This might help me bring some examples in from Islam if you are Shi'a.

Thanks.

I am a fairly new convert to Sunni Islam. Many years prior I was Christian and even then I felt the same way with regards to the Catholic "Church" but please do not misunderstand me..I am not speaking of the people who are Catholic, most of them I've talked to over the years have a beautiful admirable love for both Christ and God, but the Church oppresses that. (my opinion)

On Life in Statues... that is not what is believed. We believe Moses, via the power of God, turned his staff into a serpent... we don't think Moses had a serpent for a staff. A miraculous event occurring is not indicative of life.

I know what necromancy is, I'm asking you how YOU apply that to Catholicism.

Your take on images is at odds with the commands of God Himself to make images for the Ark in the form of Cherubim flanking the Bema seat, etc. It's at odds with 2k years of Christianity in general.

“And you shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat” (Ex 25:18)

“Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he shall live’. And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived” (Num 21:8-9)

Just a few examples...

It's not the image which is the issue, it's worshiping the image in place of God. As if the image/statue itself IS God. THAT is where it's a no-no. I do not think my Lady of Guadalupe statue is Mary. It's a representation of someone who lived. Do you look at pictures of family and think that IS your family? Of course not. It's a photographic representation. Same with a statue. Sometimes people might even talk to the photo of a deceased relative, or someone they miss, such as a wife or girlfriend, boyfriend or husband. They are talking "in spirit" as it were, to the person... they certainly don't think that the image itself hears them.

Mary is the Mother of God (Theotokos)... Jesus didn't just beam down like He was on Star Trek. He has a mom: Mary. The Holy Spirit conceived the Word made Flesh: Jesus: Jesus had no seed from a man to make Him: Just the Holy Ghost miraculously uniting the Divine Word to Mary.

This is how we know, and prove with modern science, whose proponents suggest disproves doctrine, that true science actually proves God:

Our Lady was Immaculately Conceived and bore no stain of sin on her soul. For as the Mother of God, having conceived by the Holy Ghost, retained the cells of the Body of our Lord for the rest of her life. This Human Body is in hypostatic union with the Word of God, as the Word became flesh and walked among us.
Biology has proven this occurs with all mothers and children. As Our Lady was fully human, and so too was Jesus, though also God in hypostatic union. So Our Lady retained the Bodily cells of Christ, and in hypostatic union, His divinity.
And so, Our Lady was like unto a Tabernacle, an Ark, and the New Eve: Containing the Bread of Life, the Word and Law of God, and is Perfect in her creation.

Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords: He sits in the Heavenly Court: the mother of the King is Queen: The King cannot refuse the Queen Mother's requests: She advocates for our souls:

Hail Mary, full of Grace (there is no half-full of Grace, nor kinda sorta full of grace: full = full of Grace. We are justified by faith responding to Grace which is shown by works (James 2) For faith without works is dead.

Blessed art thou amongst women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (fruit of womb means she bore God in the Flesh: Mother of God) Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Our Lady advocates for us. She is our spiritual mother: Woman (Mary), behold your son (St. John).

Woman? Like... WOMAN go make me a sammich! NOOOOOOO.

"[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. "- Gen 3:15.

THAT woman. The woman whose seed (offspring) shall have enmity with the seed of Satan: speaking in spiritual and physical terms here. Deep, eh?

When Jesus says to Mary at the Wedding at Cana: "woman, mine hour is not yet come. What have I to do with thee?", He is NOT disrespecting Momma! A better understanding of this is "...not yet come..." What to thee to me: what happens to me in doing this, starting this process, happens to YOU spiritually.

St. Simeon said to Our Lady at Jesus' presentation in the Temple for the Circumcision: A sword thine own soul shall pierce. Every physical pain Jesus went through on the Cross, Mary went through spiritually. When that Roman lance pierced Christ's heart and lungs on the Cross, a sword pierced Mary's soul.

Coredemptrix:

Calling Mary a "Co-redemptrix" places her on an equal level with Jesus Christ, the Divine Son of God, making her something like a fourth person of the Trinity, a goddess or quasi-divine goddess, which is blasphemy for any true Christian. The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer" or more literally "she who buys back with [the redeemer]." The prefix "co" comes from the Latin term "cum" which means "with" and not "equal to." Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture. With Mary's free and active "fiat" to the invitation of the angel Gabriel to become the mother of Jesus, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Lk. 1:38), she uniquely cooperated with the work of redemption by giving the divine Redeemer his body, which was the very instrument of human redemption. "We have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb. 10:10), and the body of Jesus Christ is given to him through the free, active, and unique cooperation of the Virgin Mary. By virtue of giving flesh to the "Word made flesh" (Jn. 1:14), ...

Source: www.voxpopuli.org...

I could go on and on... but I'm running out of room.

reply to post by Sublimecraft


Upon this Rock I will build my Church. I am an ex Catholic, and see immediately that our bodies are the Temples. The reference to Peter could merely have been, forseeing the Roman Trojan Horse agent named Paul. And while Peter kept the Jewish traditions whereas Paul represented the pagans or world, I have to say, those things don't matter, but that, Christ's example was equality, and freedom from the petty rules of law, ie. eating wheat on the Sabbath day, and his writing in the sand with his finger, saying it is the heart that matters, the Virtues, the petty control laws are not of Goodness and Love and their concept of a God, which should by default represent the Highest Love and Goodness there is.

So when I suggest Peter versus Paul, I mean the true teachings of Love and Equality as shown by his Life, whereas Paul told women to cover their heads and not speak, and that slaves had to obey their owners.

www.thenazareneway.com...

Very good read!

Originally posted by Blue Shift
Some teachings of the Catholic church have nothing to do with the Bible. The Stations of the Cross, for instance, includes a part where Veronica gets the image of Jesus by wiping his face with a cloth. That is a completely Pseudagraphic story and not part of the accepted KJV Bible.

But for the most part, the Catholic Church doesn't really have a specifically designated Bible it follows, so I guess they can take their stories and rituals from wherever they want.

Well, I'm not into any Church rituals, for the record, but only Love and Goodness, and believe the entire bible is partly history, partly ET/Annanuki (elohim) history, partly lies, and contortions, partly mystery school knowledge and clues, ie. Genesis 32 30, where the city Jacob meets God in is named penial. Partly astrology, partly math and science, and partly cycles and also their spell casting.

Christ is the only religion or spiritual teacher, (Immanuel to some) anywhere in the world that has given the closest message to the way back home, Love, Equality, STO, seeing through the world, awake pineal and true connection to Family and memories. And Not Harming others, forgiveness.

But the Catholics in BC, interior outdid the Salvation army and adopted whole families, and were humble, giving, good people who believe in what James said about helping others being necessary. Sharing and Caring. While I don't like the PTB's Chruch's, I really like the Catholics. Really really good people.

And I love their songs, "Love is flowing like a river, flowing out of you and me, flowing out into the ocean, setting all the people free."

Now as for the Bible, which passages are which is a big thing. The Catholic Church includes extra material than the KJV, such as the book of Tobit.

But here is a huge problem and for some reason no one is getting it. I don't mean in just the Christian church's.

The 10 commandments are a forgery and not the actual translation. The closest thing to the 10 commanments is the Egyptian book of the dead, Thoth.

And shakespear is coded in it as well. Wonder when some of it was written, we'd never know.

www.light-of-truth.com...

666 does seem to be a man after all.

reply to post by Augustine62


Yes I am a "we" who also believes the passages you provided and unlike you (who completely avoided the ones I provided) I will respond to them because at the LEAST we should address the passages someone gives us out of respect for God.

God chose to use Moses as an instrument to glorify God in the presence of Pharaoh and as a sign for the Hebrews captive in Egypt at that time.

God commanded the Temple to be built a certain and very specific way, as with the Ark.

All of these are testified in the Bible as "God ordained and approved" or commanded..

Where in the Bible then is the commandment or approval FROM God to make an image of Mary "within the church/bride"?

You cannot use worldly things to compare those which God has separated. So using pictures of loved ones does not apply here at all. The World does all kinds of idol, immoral, blasphemous things and the for this cause the judgement rests on the "world" but the "church" is to be "called out and separate" and doing away with foolish things as the world does and then foolishly comparing them as if to say "it's ok they do it"

Anyone knows upon reading that Bible front to back what stands out the most is God's abhorrence to idols period. They are not clean unless God ordains them and since you nor the Catholic church are God then they are unclean things within a "house that is suppose to represent Him" That house in my opinion and obvious view has barely anything to represent Him at all and if it does, then I am ashamed at the form therein.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by Zippidee
Its so misunderstood! We don't worship Mary or the Saints. Frankly I'm tired of this misconception. How many times do those, that know nothing of the Faith, have to be told that we ask for intercession (to pray for us) or (to ask God to forgive us, guide us and grant us the grace and mercy we need). Yes we pray directly to "our Lord" Jesus Christ! No we don't think that salvation comes through Mary or the Saints. Research it and you will understand.

The problem is, Mary and others who have died, are dead. They cannot hear you talk to them. So who is it really that you are asking to intercede for you?

We're infinite parts of infinity. We are not our bodies, but Spirit Children that are Growing into our Adult Souls. Everyone that exists, exists forever, and the Good Family can always hear and intercede. All that is, was and will be, continually, infinitely, in the Now, and there is No Time.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by truejew
Mary and others who have died, are dead. They cannot hear you talk to them. So who is it really that you are asking to intercede for you?

Yes they can hear. I know this from personal experience AND (for those who believe in the bible) it's in scripture.
Can those in Heaven hear us?

The dead can not hear and they are not in heaven yet. They are in the grave. The resurrection (except for Jesus) has not happened yet.

edit on 22-8-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)

My oh my, alot of people have missed the real info that is put in the bible:

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

Before the silver cord is loosed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Most of us know what that silver cord is, And the difference between an OBE and Crossing over, not waiting in a hole.

Originally posted by Maymunah
reply to post by Augustine62

 

Yes I am a "we" who also believes the passages you provided and unlike you (who completely avoided the ones I provided) I will respond to them because at the LEAST we should address the passages someone gives us out of respect for God.

God chose to use Moses as an instrument to glorify God in the presence of Pharaoh and as a sign for the Hebrews captive in Egypt at that time.

God commanded the Temple to be built a certain and very specific way, as with the Ark.

All of these are testified in the Bible as "God ordained and approved" or commanded..

Where in the Bible then is the commandment or approval FROM God to make an image of Mary "within the church/bride"?

You cannot use worldly things to compare those which God has separated. So using pictures of loved ones does not apply here at all. The World does all kinds of idol, immoral, blasphemous things and the for this cause the judgement rests on the "world" but the "church" is to be "called out and separate" and doing away with foolish things as the world does and then foolishly comparing them as if to say "it's ok they do it"

Anyone knows upon reading that Bible front to back what stands out the most is God's abhorrence to idols period. They are not clean unless God ordains them and since you nor the Catholic church are God then they are unclean things within a "house that is suppose to represent Him" That house in my opinion and obvious view has barely anything to represent Him at all and if it does, then I am ashamed at the form therein.

I didn't ignore them... I answered them with verses which shed light on the fact that graven images/statues, etc in themselves aren't bad but rather the misdirection of worship. You're saying all images are bad, all statues are bad, etc. Obviously, this isn't the case. If the Church says they are OK, and we are to believe the Church speaks for God, then is God, by proxy, not saying this? If you do not believe the Church speaks for God and is the true Church, I can't really say anything to you anyway. On what authority can we go? The Bible? What Bible did Christians follow for the first 300 years? There was no codified set of Scriptures like we can buy in Walmart today. It was individual rolls of parchment, etc. Once finally put onto vellum, just the New Testament alone was something like 485 sheep skins and cost the same as 10 years wages on average. Tradition, as taught by the Apostles, was the way people were largely taught-- Scripture was read at Mass, not home. People listened. They believed. The Apostles didn't carry around Bibles. The Catholic Church holds these Traditions. And only the Catholic Church. The Orthodox split from the Church in A.D. 1054.



How about from now on you list your objections by number or letters and I'll answer them as such to avoid confusion.

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Yes, this is an Old Testament teaching -- before G-d revealed Himself to mankind in corporeal form as Yeshua (Jesus Christ) that we see in the New Testament. G-d became man. Catholicism teaches that Yeshua was part man, part divinity.

The RCC traditions of men state that you do pray to Mary and that she is the mother of all living.

Catholics pray to Mary as an intercessor, but not as a god or deity. Big difference.

The RCC exalts Mary as "the Mother of God" and "the head of the mystical body" and "the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Yes. She is viewed as a Mediator between G-d and mankind. She is not considered G-d. She advocates on behalf of sinners for G-d to have mercy on their souls.

The RCC stares that Mary's prayers can and will "deliver our souls from death".

Close, but not exactly. G-d makes the choice to send a soul to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Mary intercedes on behalf of the soul to plead to G-d for mercy, despite the sins of that person.

Your clergy show their rotten fruit - sustained reports of pedophilia, catechism in direct opposition to scripture, decrees and dogmas directing adoration, prayers and worship to Mary as "Queen Above All" and "Mediatrix". They preach another gospel, a gospel that is not that of the Apostles. Jesus asked us to Worship in Spirit and in Truth, and yet, millions sit in the RCC doing just the opposite. Obedience to God. It doesn't mean anything to a person reciting repetitive rosaries, praying to a Mediatrix, believing in a Queen, and believing that "she can deliver souls". There is no Truth and no obedience to God's clear commands - even to His plea to flee Babylon.

Whoa. Let's take this step by step. Playing the pedophilia card to attack Catholicism as a whole is a low blow.

Accusations of pedophilia are very serious. However, these incidents represent a tiny percentage of all priests, the majority of of whom are good and moral men. Here is a great link that gives perspective on this subject:

www.psychwww.com...

It's important to recognize that the Church has changed. Most of these incidents occurred 30-40 years ago, and many of the priests accused are long dead and unable to defend themselves. Priests today undergo thorough training on how to control impulses, and have thorough background checks and monitoring that didn't happen years ago. Priests are also much more mature when they enter priesthood now than in earlier generations.

Regardless, it is pretty inflammatory to accuse Catholicism of preying on the young. Percentages in the Church are no different than those found in all the major religions, our school system, etc.

The New Testament gives some credence to the adoration of Mary. Didn't the archangel state, "Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee? Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Yeshua?" Mary was the Mother of the Christ Child, the Savior of Mankind. She played a pretty important role bringing Yeshua into the world, and raising Him as a young infant and child, don't you agree?

It's like a child that misbehaves, and the Father wants to punish the child until Mother intervenes on the child's behalf. The same thing happens in Heaven, when you meet your Maker. Only Mary is there to plead on your behalf.

There are continued religious traditions that have continued outside of the Bible, that are, in fact, extra-Biblical. In fact, we have written records of these changes that have occurred historically over the centuries. They can be found in the theological writings of the Doctors of the Church, saints, monks, nuns, and priests. You simply cannot ignore 2,000 years of the Church's writings on theological matters as if they never occurred. It's not like the New Testament occurred yesterday and we bumped our head and entered 2012.

And, anyone that reads the Catechism of the Catholic Church will be very much in agreement that it follows the spirit and the intent of the message of Christ. In fact, the Church is one of the last bastions in our modern world against the evils of secularism, materialism, and the depravities found in today's culture (abortion, etc.). Most Catholics are good upstanding people, honorable, charitable, and seeking to be more like Christ. Catholics run schools, soup kitchens, and conduct missionary work in the Third World.

Originally posted by Augustine62


If the Church says they are OK, and we are to believe the Church speaks for God, then is God, by proxy, not saying this? If you do not believe the Church speaks for God and is the true Church, I can't really say anything to you anyway. On what authority can we go? The Bible? What Bible did Christians follow for the first 300 years?

I have to say, I was leaning more to coming to a middle ground with you but the above is very alarming!!! If the Church say's it's ok? Seriously??

What Bible did Christians follow for the first 300 years has nothing to do with NOW. I mean now that we all have access to the Word of God we can finally take any confusion or doubt to Him right inside there. We should not ever put our salvation and/or faith in the hands of a MAN because man can always lead a person astray and even there are numerous warnings of this fact in that Bible. You do not think God knew that it would not yet be published in writing for many years following Jesus Crucifiction? You think that God did not know that we, today would have every possible version and translation in our hands so there is absolutely no excuse to give in the end when we are questioned "Why"? There is not excuse...you have that Bible, read it and get into the times of NOW not yesterday.

#1. Where is it written in the Bible that God commanded or even suggested that the true church "Bride" bear statues and images of relics inside their establishment?

If you can give me a Bible verse, then I will change my entire mind frame, if not, then I continue to stand on the Word I know and read as my Authority.

If the Church say's it's ok? Seriously??

Yeshua ("Jesus") is still the head of the Church. So, yes, what He says, goes.

Where is it written in the Bible that God commanded or even suggested that the true church "Bride" bear statues and images of relics inside their establishment?

Try the top lid of the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament for starters. It bore two golden angels on top of the Ark - truly a "graven image" by all counts, correct? The Ark was treated with great reverence and respect.

In the Holy of Holies, near the Ark of the Covenant, stood 2 large, carved angels. These would be considered statues.

On the curtain of the Tabernacle in the wilderness were embroidered cherubim (angels). Also, there is the example of the bronze serpent in the Book of Numbers.

We see Jacob bowing down to Esau, his brother. He bows down - showing respect - but does not adore.

St. John the Evangelist argues that venerating an image of Christ does not terminate at the image itself - the material of the image is not the object of worship - rather it goes beyond the image, to the prototype.

The veneration of the tombs and statues of martyrs was common among early Christian communities. In 397, St. Augustine of Hippo, in his Confessions, tells the story of his mother making offerings for the statues and tombs of martyrs.

St. John argues that the Incarnation, where "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), indicates that the invisible God became visible, and as a result it is permissible to depict Jesus Christ. He argues: "When He who is bodiless and without form... existing in the form of God, empties Himself and takes the form of a servant in substance and in stature and is found in a body of flesh, then you draw His image..."

I could continue with other examples. My point, however, is simple: There are sufficient examples in the Bible that there were statues, oftentimes in gold, that were used even before Christ was born. These were treated with reverence, and respect, but were not worshiped as gods in and of themselves.

You would be particularly naive to assume that Catholics pray to wood and golden statues as actual, de facto gods. They do not. Just as a picture of a loved one is a pictorial representation of your husband, for example, does not mean that you think the picture is a living being. Catholics do not believe that statues are real gods.

Originally posted by Maymunah

Originally posted by Augustine62


If the Church says they are OK, and we are to believe the Church speaks for God, then is God, by proxy, not saying this? If you do not believe the Church speaks for God and is the true Church, I can't really say anything to you anyway. On what authority can we go? The Bible? What Bible did Christians follow for the first 300 years?

I have to say, I was leaning more to coming to a middle ground with you but the above is very alarming!!! If the Church say's it's ok? Seriously??

What Bible did Christians follow for the first 300 years has nothing to do with NOW. I mean now that we all have access to the Word of God we can finally take any confusion or doubt to Him right inside there. We should not ever put our salvation and/or faith in the hands of a MAN because man can always lead a person astray and even there are numerous warnings of this fact in that Bible. You do not think God knew that it would not yet be published in writing for many years following Jesus Crucifiction? You think that God did not know that we, today would have every possible version and translation in our hands so there is absolutely no excuse to give in the end when we are questioned "Why"? There is not excuse...you have that Bible, read it and get into the times of NOW not yesterday.

#1. Where is it written in the Bible that God commanded or even suggested that the true church "Bride" bear statues and images of relics inside their establishment?

If you can give me a Bible verse, then I will change my entire mind frame, if not, then I continue to stand on the Word I know and read as my Authority.

My point, May, is that the Bible is not the end-all-be-all as the first 300 years or so there was not even the ability to say "The Bible says..." In fact, there was no ability to say "Chapter X Verse X of (insert book here) says..." until... gosh, the 13th century or so? I'd have to brush up on that. The point is the Catholic Church compiled the Sacred Scriptures into one compiled book; before the Church did this, it was individual scrolls, etc., and people were taught FROM the Scripture by the priests, deacons, and evangelists in conjunction with Apostolic Tradition.

There are four marks of the Church: It is One; Holy; Catholic (Universal); Apostolic. Some claim they are the True Church and might bear one or 3 of these marks, but the Catholic Church is the only Church which bears all 4. It is the True Church.

Your authority means basically nothing, and I don't speak on my authority either because I too have none.

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

Without the Church, what IS the Bible? Who says what books go in the Bible? Who says how to understand said books? Mere men? On whose authority? Protestants claim inspiration by the Holy Ghost and have split like cells into 40k+ "denominations". The Catholic Church remains One. Same doctrine being taught for 2k years. Hmm..


"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (Thess. 2:15)

The full scope of the New Testament wasn't even completed by the Apostles via inspiration of the Holy Ghost at the time of this writing. Nor was the full Bible compiled and available to all. Are we to believe Our Lord left us hanging, without the Bible? Never!

Pedophilia is a known product of evil throughout the world. The RCC's response to it for decades has been to buy silence, transfer priests and keep it concealed. My point is simple; the Catholic hierarchy therefore condoned it. They did not do what scripture told them to do, to reject evil from in their midst. Men of God would have done so. Men of God also obey the Father and His gospel. They don't change it. The RCC preaches another gospel. And yet, it's members go along with it in direct disobedience. It is a sad reality that you can defend the "traditions of men" over the Word, Christ. No where did I say that Catholics don't do great charitable work. They do, but so do non-believers and the Masons for example what therefore distinguishes you from them? Obedience to the Father? No. Faithfulness to Yahushua? No. Why not? Because most Catholics do the very thing that Yahushua blasted the Pharisees of doing - elevating the "traditions of the elders" to such an extent that they had become hypocrites and entirely disobeyed the Spirit of the Law. Where in the Law does it state that you are to "revere" Mary as the Queen of Heaven and a Co-Mediatrix? Nowhere! It's my point.

You state "what did people do when they didn't have Bibles?" Why, they heard the Word! He comes to live with you. He writes His laws in your heart. That's what people did, they walked with Him, led by the Spirit. Do you think His Spirit is teaching non Roman Catholics to bow before statues? Or to pray to his earth mother? Or to disobey His commands? No. This is what the RCC doesn't teach you. None of us need a church, and they know it. The gospels preach "God saves".

I do have family in the RCC, and I see it first hand. They are so convinced by the Church that it is "the only way" that they are frightened to even question what it is they are taught. They try to view scripture, but the RCC interpretation is so deeply embedded that they cannot read without those glasses on. The RCC becomes their family almost, which makes separation difficult. But those members who do break away from its teachings walk right into the arms of Jesus as He calls them out. And what they all tell us afterwards is that they could not see that all they used to do was defend the traditions of men instead of God. It truly is that simple, and it's why I brought up pedophilia. What the priests did was kept silent by the RCC, and instead of instantly banishing such men from the Church, they simply transferred them to more innocent children and unsuspecting parents. The Bishops and Cardinals that simply transferred them were not men of God. And if the hierarchy are not men of God, you can darn well bet that they aren't too interested in the Truth of God.

He gives us the belief, the Faith to believe. He writes His laws in our hearts. He teaches us. He walks with us. But how can He do any of those things when we are pleading to Jesus' mother instead of the One that He did send?

Pedophilia is a known product of evil throughout the world. The RCC's response to it for decades has been to buy silence, transfer priests and keep it concealed. My point is simple; the Catholic hierarchy therefore condoned it. They did not do what scripture told them to do, to reject evil from in their midst.

The hierarchy is not the Church. The people are the Church. It's the common everyday, workaday Joe that goes to Mass every morning to pray for his family. That's the Church.

Yes, there were some evil men in the Church that ignored criminal activity that was appalling. However, you could point the same finger at any other religious, fraternal, or even secular organization of similar size and find the same kind of evil.

Most of these cases of abusing children took place 30-40 years ago, and many of the accused priests have passed away and are unable to defend themselves against the charges. Since that time, there have been radical changes in the Church. Priests today undergo thorough background checks, training on impulse control, and are given a battery of psychological tests prior to even entering the seminary to become a priest. Most priests today are also much, much older when they enter the priesthood, when in decades past priests came right out of seminary from high school at a much younger age.

Yes, what was done was evil. The Church recognizes this evil, and has made radical changes to address these issues.

Here is a good, balanced perspective: www.psychwww.com...

"Almost all the cases coming to light today are cases from 30 and 40 years ago. We did not know much about pedophilia and sexual abuse in general back then. In fact, the vast majority of the research on sexual abuse of minors didn't emerge until the early 1980's. So, it appeared reasonable at the time to treat these men and then return them to their priestly duties. In hindsight, this was a tragic mistake. It has been estimated that 40 years ago about 23% of male psychotherapists have been sexually involved with their clients. Of course this is no longer true today. Forty years ago we thought that autism was caused by cold and withholding mothers referred to as the "ice box mother." We can't take what we know in 2010 and apply it to problems and decisions made in the 1960's and 1970's.

Furthermore, 40 years ago, most priests entered seminary during high school, did not participate in a comprehensive psychological evaluation prior to admission, and had no training in sexuality, maintaining professional boundaries, and impulse control. Advice regarding dealing with sexual impulses included cold showers and prayer. Today, most applicants to the priesthood are much older (generally in their late 20's or 30's). They often have had satisfying and appropriate intimate relationships before entering the seminary. They have completed a psychological evaluation that specifically examines risk factors for sexual problems. They now get good training in sexuality and issues related to managing sexual impulses. It is not surprising that the majority of the sex-offending priests that we hear about in the press are older. In fact, our research indicates that the average age of these men are 53."

"....The priests who have committed these terrible acts must answer to legal and other authorities and be prevented from victimizing additional people. However, these men are ill. About 70% have been sexually abused as children too. Therefore, the majority of clergy sex offenders are also victims of sexual abuse too. Almost all have serious psychiatric disorders such as substance abuse, personality disorders, or mood disorders. Many are indeed horrified by their own behavior. Many have been suicidal. This does not excuse their behavior or make their crime less horrific. However, they need treatment and compassion as well."

"....The morale among Catholic clergy and laypersons is very low due to this issue. Many rank and file Catholics, priests and family members of priests are terribly distraught. This issue has shaken their trust in the Church as well as their faith. We must avoid the hysteria of the moment and let reason and the best available data prevail and guide us."

Yes, there were some evil men in the Church that ignored criminal activity that was appalling. However, you could point the same finger at any other religious, fraternal, or even secular organization of similar size and find the same kind of evil.

reply to post by CookieMonster09


CookieMonster-

In lots of ways I see your point of view and I respect your opinions but I don't believe that any group of people have the right of excuse in pointing out other groups mistakes. The Roman Catholic Church should (in my opinion) be responsible and be penalized for their own conduct and the same applies to other organizations.

These sexual perversions are against Jesus' teachings and the entire organization knows this as a fact. The blame game has been going on far too long to just be a minor happening regardless of what percentage of perversion exists in either the Roman Catholic organization or any other organization. The church hierarchy is supposed to be the shepherds of the flock and not the flock the watchdogs of the church.

You do not simply move a pervert about the organization in hope of hiding the offense but you get rid of the offender and all who are complacent to his actions. It is the everlasting soul that we are toying with and not a political game of hide and seek. The matter is so serious that a soul could be destroyed in this entire matter. Simply saying that it is only one tenth of one percent who are caught is not good enough. It involves the soul of the offender as well as the soul of the victim. The correct exposure could save both and that is the job of the shepherds.

Also the matter is so serious that even those who know of these crimes and do nothing to reveal them are as guilty as the perpetrator in the eyes of God. Even the people themselves should be so outraged as to turn the organization on its head if this is not satisfactorily remedied. Not continue to investigate for days and months and years such as politicians do in hopes that it will be swept under the rug. That is what has and continues to be done and that is why the church has lost much of its respect and devotion.

Every single life form will one day perish including every single one of the different organizations who are supposed to be shepherds of the sheep of Christ Jesus. What each organization does, they will one day answer to Christ and the Roman Catholic organization will answer for its own sins. To whom much is given, much will be required. There are hundreds of thousands of hungry souls out there and hardly anyone to feed them the food of salvation. The church is destroying itself.

Without the Church, what IS the Bible? Who says what books go in the Bible? Who says how to understand said books? Mere men? On whose authority? Protestants claim inspiration by the Holy Ghost and have split like cells into 40k+ "denominations". The Catholic Church remains One. Same doctrine being taught for 2k years. Hmm..

If you could understand why God "confused" the language at Babel and scattered the people, then apply that same lesson that He provides for us in the gospels. The "confusion" of languages at Pentecost was the same thing done by God to take down Babel. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD was the same thing as destroying the "tower", Jesus judged it and destroyed the temple which had become too powerful with Rome. Jesus said that the sheep would be scattered. He came down to Earth, just as God descended to see Babel, and passed judgement in both places.
He scattered the sheep and "confused" the language when He destroyed the latest incarnation of Babel - Jerusalem. So knowing that, He didn't scatter the sheep and confuse the language to have them regroup into a physical monstrosity of a church! He scattered the sheep and confused the language so that His children would go out into the world! This is why we see epistles mentioning "from your brother in Rome or Babylon" (my paraphrasing). The Apostles knew that they had been scattered to preach the whole gospel. They were to be His body out in the world.

But what did the RCC do? It formed a behemoth organisation in direct opposition to God's commands to spread out and multiply. It grew into another powerful Babel claiming itself as Christ on Earth, killing true Saints in this Earth that wouldn't bow to it instead of the True God.

Jesus said that the shepherd would be struck and the sheep scattered. Christians are not to form a Babel, because Babel is made from bricks not stones. The last version of Babel is nearly here, with Godless men forming their One World Order and it's "one language" of a united religion and culture. The fact that the RCC is front and centre courting Muslims and other religions should clearly point out the nature of the RCC and it's role in the last Babel.

He will teach you the Truth if you are interested.