A Moral Inquiry: Iran-Israel

Originally posted by Ek Bharatiya

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The U.S. gave Israel a buttload of nukes,

It was the French. Several senior members in US administration helped in it thought without properly disclosing it to the USG.

Thanks for the correction. Either way we had a hand in it. Israel is better equipped to take care of itself than the countries surrounding it.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

Again, once their 'Messiah' indeed arrives, what will all of you NK sympathizers say then?

I dont want to talk religion here, as it would only take this discussion elsewhere.

Except Neturei Karta which support the genocide of Israel.

Where. Is. The. Evidence.
I am sure you can provide proof of the Nazis calling for jewish genocide.
So, now if you are going to make grand statements about NK Jews calling for the genocide of Israel, you better be able to provide evidence. If not, then your claims about the NK calling for Israels genocide will be dismissed.

The whole point of Jews living in Iran is basically nothing more than a cheap, pathetic argument

No. The 25 K jews of Iran are a valid point, because theres this whole thing out there that Iran, as a state "hates jews" and wants to see them wiped out. The fact that 25k Jews are living peacefully in Iran refutes the common argument that Iran is anti-semitic.

You can keep trying to discount the "jewishness" of Iranian jews, but it doesn't change anything.

Also, how many times does the fact that the US is hosting Iranians, or that Israel is hosting Iranians is being brought up? Not much and absolutely not nearly enough compared to the times the fact that 25k NK Jews living in Iran is brought up.

The difference between Iran and the US is that the US is NOT being accused of being against the Iranian or Arab people. So no big deal that they host Iranians or Arabs.

However, Iran is constantly being accused of being against Jews in general. (Refer to the OP). So Iran can always point towards its 25 K jews and say, "look, we are not anti-semitic".

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

They are the easiest pawn to use in order to say "Here, we don't hate Jews, take a look at our Jews! They live here peacefully!", but leave out the part where they are the strongest deniers of a Jewish state in Israel.

You mean like how the Americans and Israelis insist that the Iran is "anti-semitic", while leaving out the part about Iran hosting 25 K jews? And no. Iranian Jews political / religious beliefs do not disqualify them as "jews".

No, it proves nothing. NK living in Iran doesn't prove Iran hates Jews or that they are neutral towards them. The only thing it proves is that people are gullible enough to be sucked in by such easy propaganda.

The only people who are gullible are the ones who swallow the news media lies about Iran being "anti-semitic"....despite the fact that they allow 25 K jews to live in peace.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Thank you for you're indirect answer speachmilitant. So you choose option a) political pragmatist. Such a person invokes "other issues" - ignoring the peril awaiting the party imperiled - and "hurrah" all of a sudden the abstraction towards the consequence of that decision is miraculously overcome..

So consequences aren't important?? This shouldn't be a factor in the decision?? As a matter of fact - if you're a human being - and not a mere political animal - you should very much take into consideration the fate of 6 MILLION human beings and confronting an enemy that after getting rid of the 'little satan' - the american outpost in Dar Al Islam - will undoubtedly seek to take down the great Satan - America - the hub of "western corruption" .

I realize that the popular mantra of political science is 'politics is above morality', and nation states act out of self interest. I have two responses to that: human society is based on morality, which in turn is based on freedom, as Hegel argues in outlines of the philosophy of right: It is the 'crystalization' of conscience in social bodies. Thus, if we seek to truly live free, it is in our interest to promote a proper morality at a geo-political level by coming to the defense of Israel.

Secondly, Israel is being threatened by the axis of political Islam - Iran. Iran is not only a threat to Israel - but to western society in general. The only reason not to recognize this is if you deem western society - Liberal democracy and capitalism - as inherently faulty - which you probably do, being a communist sympathizer who sees Israel's elimination in positive terms.

reply to post by dontreally

being a communist sympathizer who sees Israel's elimination in positive terms.

I thought we were past the days of the red threat and these sorts of ad hominems. I have no sympathies for communism, but rather human beings themselves. Every system and society is faulty on that note. Also, I don't see the destruction of any community or state in postive terms.

The reality of the situation is this. Israel is sitting on 200 nuclear bombs and one of the most advanced and developed militaries in the middle east. Iran is neither poised nor interested in attacking Israel at the present moment and even if it did want to launch a full blown military invasion, it is not in the place do, seeing it would have to go through Iraq. The Hezb'allah proxy in Lebanon is not powerful enough, even if it is backed by Israel to invoke any sort of 2nd Holocaust.

The consequences of everything we do it important, that is exactly why one must take into account all the pragmatic realities (i.e. possible outcomes), before they do anything, otherwise you could make the situation worse than it is.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

I thought we were past the days of the red threat and these sorts of ad hominems. I have no sympathies for communism, but rather human beings themselves. Every system and society is faulty on that note. Also, I don't see the destruction of any community or state in postive terms.

Yet you callously ignore the peril facing Israel.

The reality of the situation is this. Israel is sitting on 200 nuclear bombs and one of the most advanced and developed militaries in the middle east.

Which exists for their self defense

Iran is neither poised nor interested in attacking Israel at the present moment and even if it did want to launch a full blown military invasion, it is not in the place do, seeing it would have to go through Iraq.

What on earth are you talking about? The Israelis aren't worried about a military invasion. They are worried about being NUKED! And the Nuke need not be sent on a missile from Iran, but can be conveniently passed off to Hezbollah and smuggled into Israel proper. THIS is the VERY RATIONAL FEAR of Israel.

What is eminently irrational is to treat Israel's stockpile of nuclear weapons in the same way as the thought ofIran - a fanatical Sh'ite regime which believes creating a state of chaos will induce the coming of their Messiah - having nuclear weapons. There is no comparison. Every ounce of fear in Iran's having Nuclear capability is in its fanatical religious beliefs. If they weren't fanatically religious, there wouldn't be an issue. But they are; they're hadiths teach that their 12th and final Imam will come after the world descends into a period of chaos.

OK?? This FULLY justifies Israels concerns. This is what General Dempsey had to say: “Israel sees the Iranian threat more seriously than the US sees it, because a nuclear Iran poses a threat to Israel’s very existence.”.. SEE?? Dempsey, even in opposing an attack on Iran, acknowledges the existential threat that Iran poses to Israels very existence.

It's common #ing sense. Only idiocy or propaganda that extinguishes any semblance of rational thought - which is idiotic - could lead someone into believing that Israel isn't threatened and merely wants to start a war with Iran. It's craziness. Look at Irans government, it's religious ideology - political Islam. It's relentless calls for Israels destruction.

before they do anything, otherwise you could make the situation worse than it is.

The worse case scenario in doing nothing is Israel's elimination through a nuclear holocaust. ANYTHING - in the eyes of the Israelis - is better than that. This entitles them - nay, obligates them - to defend their lives. How America responds is Americas moral concern. My prayers are with Israel. They are being villanized by an evil world order; children in Palestine are taught to hate Jews, Egypt now has an Islamist government and is remilitarizing the Sinai peninsula without Israels consent - which is in violation of the peace treaty, and Iran daily calls for it's destruction, with Syria adding threats of attacking Israel with biological weapons.

We live in a CRAZY #ing world. And the craziness is not Israel or Jews, but the psychotics in power who revel in manufacturing situations in which to torment and eliminate them. They are inhumane,. If God does exist - and I truly hope so for the sake of mankind's collective conscience - they will somehow overcome this collusion against them by the Western elites and their Islamic cronies.

It is simply not right. I cannot watch this without being alarmed by the parallels between the years before the holocaust and today. Only difference is, the Nazis attacked the Jews individually, while today, the state of the Jews - which has 6 million of them living there - can be ridiculed and traduced without incurring allegations of outright antisemitism, because the fact that the state is merely a body - an impersonal entity - disassociates people with the factual consequences of what would happen if that body were attacked: like in WWII, 6 million Jews would again be murdered. Without the so-called moral world giving a #.

reply to post by dontreally


So you honestly think a state (Iran) that most observers recognise that while it is some-what of a pariah state it still acts rationally (in terms of self survival) would risk their own destruction by Israels nuclear stockpile, to detonate a nuclear bomb? It would mean the end of Iran, not simply because Israel would retaliate, but because the US would too.

It seems like you are trying to over dramatise the tensions between Iran and Israel. Political alarmists such as yourself attempt to keep the masses in fear in order to control them. But if someone were to really analyse the situation they would find that while it requires immediate attention, it is far more complex and far less "end of the world" or "end of Israel" than some people would like you have think.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

So you honestly think a state (Iran) that most observers recognise that while it is some-what of a pariah state it still acts rationally (in terms of self survival) would risk their own destruction by Israels nuclear stockpile, to detonate a nuclear bomb?

You think Israel has the capability to destroy Iran??

Iran is roughly 74 times the size of Israel. This is what Iran would have to do to eliminate Israel. Roughly 3/4's of Israels population lives in the Northern, Haifa, Central and Tel Aviv districts.



That is the light blue, light brown, dark brown and blue areas.

Israel economic heartland is located in these areas. Much of it's governmental and military facilities are located in these areas.

A nuclear bomb on average has a blast radius of 5.6 km. In Tel Aviv, with it's 1,2 million Jews, and it's 4 km breadth from east to west, one nuclear bomb exploded in this vicinity would critically damage Israel's military apparatus i.e. its ability to respond.

At the very most, Israel would retaliate with their own nuclear strike, which would leave minimal - almost negligible - damage on Iran's government. Yes, millions would be killed, but in a country with 80 million people, that can be easily absorbed.

The difference is this: one attack against Israel would incapacitate it, while one attack against Iran could be absorbed.

You don't think Iran knows this?? Are you so cocky as to think that Iran - ruled by a fundamentalist shi'ite regime - is afraid of self sacrifice?? We know full well what lengths Islamists will go to defeat their enemies. They kill themselves in suicide attacks. Such an attack on Israel would be a massive suicide operation, in which the numbers killed on both sides would be roughly commensurate.

In Irans eyes, this is a win situation. Iran bombs Israel, Israel bombs Iran. Iran is too big to be dealt a death blow by an Israeli strike - even if it is many - while Israel is too small to overcome even one nuclear blast in their economic heartland.

It would mean the end of Iran, not simply because Israel would retaliate, but because the US would too.

Are you daft or something? Do you ignore information like "Shi'ite Islam believes that a state of chaos - armageddon - will precede the coming of the Islamic Messiah"???

Look at what the Hadiths - which guides Islamic jurisprudence - predict before the end of days. Look at how many articles have already been met:

The vast majority of people who profess to be Muslim will be so only in name despite their practice of Islamic rites and it will be they who make war with the Mahdi.

Before his coming will come the red death and the white death, killing two thirds of the world's population. The red death signifies violence and the white death is plague. One third of the world's population will die from the red death and the other third from the white death.

Several figures will appear: the one-eyed Antichrist (Masih ad-Dajjal), the Al-Harth, Al-Mansur, Shuaib bin Saleh and the Sufyani.

There will be a great conflict in the land of Syria, until it is destroyed.

Death and fear will afflict the people of Baghdad and Iraq. A fire will appear in the sky and a redness will cover them.
Portents of the Imam Mahdi

Now, its irrelevant what you and I think about this. This is what Shi'ite Islam believes. And it is quite frightening that many of these portents already exist: Islamic internecine fighting implies article 1) are Muslim only in name; there is currently great conflict - civil war - in Syria, fulfilling article 4); death and fear I would say has been gripping the people of Iraq since the beginning of the Iraq war, fulfilling article 5).

3 of the 5 articles are already present in our geopolitical reality. Whats left is this nebulous idea of the one eyed antichrist - which I'm sure some contemporary or future political figure could be labelled; and 2/3rds of the world population getting killed. Which Iran could facilitate by starting a nuclear war.

Why you take this so lightly is beyond me. It is extremely serious.

reply to post by dontreally


You made very good points.

And I would just like to add with regards to the Mahdi.

The Mahdi is only an added myth to the religion of Islam by the Shias.

The prophet Muhammad did mentioned about the Mahdi, but only that he would be a mortal of great knowledge, nothing else.

The prophet Muhammad's end times was the same as Judaism and christianity as recited to him by the angel Gabriel, and his belief of the sign of the end days were that it would only come when the Arab world is united and the ruler has his name and come from his direct line alone. But we know he left no male heir, something that 7th century were particular about as women's liberation did not exist then or he would have mentioned it.

Thus, the end times, and whatever that seems as 'prophesied' comming true today, which already deviates from the prophet's words, is fully a Shia belief and wilful misinterpretation, and not mainstream Islam as taught by the prophet, for he said that he was the last prophet and divine messenger. There is no other.

Unfortunately, many muslims around the world have very little opportunity for education, and thus easily fooled and misled by those who seek for self glory and power.

Thus who is the anti-christ, the commander of terrorists destabilizing nations, of our times in our world today? Aint that hard to figure out.