A Moral Inquiry: Iran-Israel

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
They are still jews regardless of what you think of them.

Yeah, Jews that hold extremist views even harsher than the most avid Muslim extremists. In their POV, Israel as a Jewish state should burn with as many casualties as possible, just because they are having a Jewish country in Israel while the Messiah hasn't arrived.
If you can't see the political reason for Iran to keep good, good ties with such comfortable Jewish community, you're either blind or closing your eyes on purpose.

Irans 25 K jews will be brought up on ATS whenever ignorant claims that Iran is anti-semitic are being made.

You make it sound like I care. I really don't. Bring it up as much as you'd like, it's not like anyone's opinion has ever changed on ATS. People who hate Israel will hate it no matter what they see here, and people who support it will still do even if you think you've opened their eyes.
The population around here is already beyond retarded, biased, one-sided, hypocrite and what not, so it doesn't really bother me if silly facts like these are brought up numerous times.

To tell you the truth - I remember you are one of the only people out of the Anti-Israeli crowd in here that actually has some merit in his posts and is writing things with some logic as opposed to others from your 'crew', I really thought you'd understand how what I'm saying makes your claim sound ridiculous - Just as you'd find it hypocrite for Israel to host a community of anti-Iranian Saudis that can change their opinion in an instant, depending on their religious twisted view of the world.
If not, then I exaggerated in my thoughts of you I guess.

You cant call a regime anti-semitic, if they allow jews to co-exist peacefully.

The second I'll hear about a Zionist Jew living peacefully in Iran I'd consider your opinions with some weight. As long as the Jewish community you so love mentioning openly support a genocide against everyone in the Israeli country, that little fact that they are living safe in Iran is as irrelevant as Belgians living peacefully in Germany, or Arabs living in Israel for that matter.

To answer the question the way you put it across.... No. I would not support a nuclear strike on anybody.

Good. Me too.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Ok Fine.
Let Israel start this war.
But if Israel is defeated....then don't whine when Israel is overwhelmed by Irans conventional forces.
Are you Ok with that??
Or will you then claim that the Iranians are the "bad guys" because they wiped out the side that you picked....who actually STARTED the war?

Lmao - fine by me. You remember to hold on to the very same conditions you speak of.
From the instant Iran is defeated, you are not allowed to whine at anything at all. Not US support of Israel, not technological superiority, not CIA/Mossad psy ops, no Jewish-Zionist conspiracies, no "THIS WHOLE WAR IS FAKE", nothing.
I would really, really not whine if Israel is somehow defeated.

And if you take a little time to reconsider what you're suggesting, please think of the little fact that Iran has no option to overwhelm Israel by conventional forces. The only threat Iran is presenting against Israel is a nuclear one, and that's that.

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof
Ya know what? Just for you I'm going to say, Hell Yes.

Rest assured I didn't think otherwise. Fortunately for me, you'll be among those who are going to whine their butts out after the war Iran is going to suffer, so I'll be around to wipe your tears and rub salt on your wounds.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Calling Iranian Jews as extremists could'nt be further from the truth. They have had ample opportunity to immigrate to Israel as many Persian Jews have, but just because they made the decision to stay in Iran does NOT make them extremist. They are Iranian citizens with the same rights most other minority groups don't have.

Oh please.
Have I said they are extremists because they opted to stay in Iran? No, they are extremists because they are a part of an extremist religious sect called Neturei Karta, and you are more than welcome to dig in and find out what their ideals, agendas and beliefs are.

This forum actually revolves around them NK guys as if they are the 'real Jews' while every other Jew is either fake, a reptilian, an ancient babylonian demon, a "khazar", and all kinds of BS from the well known fraud 'Scrolls of the Elders of Zion'.
If by any chance the NK guys will see someone as the Messiah, they will instantly shift their stance 180 degrees and will show their utmost support in creating a Jewish country in Israel.

Then what? Wanna bet how many threads will be opened in ATS saying NK are a bunch of fake Jews, alien shape-shifters etc?

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

Yeah, Jews that hold extremist views even harsher than the most avid Muslim extremists. In their POV, Israel as a Jewish state should burn with as many casualties as possible, just because they are having a Jewish country in Israel while the Messiah hasn't arrived.

From what I know, they (the Neturai Karta) have only called for the "peaceful dismantling" of the modern day state of Israel. Where did you read that they hold that Israel "should burn with as many casualties as possible"??? Source?

People who hate Israel will hate it no matter what they see here, and people who support it will still do even if you think you've opened their eyes.

You are right.
But the same can be said of Iran as well....
People who hate Iran will hate it no matter what they see here, and people who support it will still do even if you think you've opened their eyes

I really thought you'd understand how what I'm saying makes your claim sound ridiculous - Just as you'd find it hypocrite for Israel to host a community of anti-Iranian Saudis that can change their opinion in an instant, depending on their religious twisted view of the world.
If not, then I exaggerated in my thoughts of you I guess.

What do the Saudis have to do with this discussion about Iranians and Jews?
Or maybe I didn't understand your statement about Saudis in this thread? Could you rephrase that for me?

The second I'll hear about a Zionist Jew living peacefully in Iran I'd consider your opinions with some weight.

Being a "Zionist" is a political stance. It has no bearing on "jewishness". Some jews choose to be "zionists". Others dont. Non-Zionists Jews are still Jews, regardless of what they believe....and whether or not you agree with them.

As long as the Jewish community you so love mentioning openly support a genocide against everyone in the Israeli country,

Again, I ask you..... when did this Jewish community (Neturai Karta) support a genocide against everyone in Israel?

Please provide a source, so I can know where you are getting this from.

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof
Ya know what? Just for you I'm going to say, Hell Yes.

Rest assured I didn't think otherwise. Fortunately for me, you'll be among those who are going to whine their butts out after the war Iran is going to suffer, so I'll be around to wipe your tears and rub salt on your wounds.

LOL I knew that would get your panties in a twist.

Do I want anyone to nuke anyone? Absolutely not.

But posing ridiculous options where there really is only one "Right" answer because they were worded entirely uneven, is not a valid question. And if you think so, well your name is Israeliguy so nobody can really expect a rational and thoughtful response from you.

All they have to do is see your post history on every single thread that has anything to do with Israel, Palestine, or Iran to see your not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch.

Also, your response didn't really make sense at all, your going to rub salt in my wounds after whining my butt out?

Next time, stop, take a breath and think your responses out, otherwise you don't look very intelligent.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
From what I know, they (the Neturai Karta) have only called for the "peaceful dismantling" of the modern day state of Israel. Where did you read that they hold that Israel "should burn with as many casualties as possible"??? Source?

Where have I read about it? Source? Lol, I have heard it straight from their mouthes. There are Neturei Karta living inside Jerusalem's most archaic neighborhoods, called "100 gates" (Or Me'aa She'arim). I don't need to read about them online to understand their agenda, although a quick google search will lead you to seeing they came to meet Nasrallah, called him "his excellency", after he shot hundreds of rockets blindly at Israel for the sole purpose of achieving as many casualties as possible.

You are right.
But the same can be said of Iran as well....
People who hate Iran will hate it no matter what they see here, and people who support it will still do even if you think you've opened their eyes

Of course.

What do the Saudis have to do with this discussion about Iranians and Jews?
Or maybe I didn't understand your statement about Saudis in this thread? Could you rephrase that for me?

...
It's an example, a wild one. Goes to show how irrelevant is the fact that 25K Neturei Karta Jews live in Iran, to saying Iran has no problems with Jews. You guys always mention it as if it goes to prove anything, but it doesn't. It's just like Israel will host a Saudi community who are highly opposing to the Iranian regime and super-friendly to the Israeli government, and use them as a political chip to say - "here, look, they live here peacefully and we all get along just fine, see? We're not racist".

You honestly want to tell me that whenever Ahmaddinerjacket invites them to his public interviews, his anti-Israeli rallies, his holocaust denying events, you can't see how he is using them as a political chip?

Being a "Zionist" is a political stance. It has no bearing on "jewishness". Some jews choose to be "zionists". Others dont. Non-Zionists Jews are still Jews, regardless of what they believe....and whether or not you agree with them.

I haven't said anything about anyone who is not a Zionist by choice. Personally I consider being a Zionist = wanting to live as a Jew inside Israel, but that is not the point of what I said.
The point was, quite clearly, that when you show me how a Zionist Jew lives peacefully in Iran, then I'll be impressed. Until then I can only giggle as people point out the fact that NK has a strong presence in Iran as if it holds any relevance to Iran's tolerance towards Jews. Yes they are Jews, but they are more a comfortable, friendly, political chip than anything else for the Iranian leadership.

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof
Do I want anyone to nuke anyone? Absolutely not.

But posing ridiculous options where there really is only one "Right" answer because they were worded entirely uneven, is not a valid question.

It's a hypothetical question, IF such a scenario occurs, would you support it? Nobody wanted you to express your support towards that scenario to actually happen or how would it, the question is simply a Yes/No question which is quite simple.
If you'd ask me if I support a nuclear attack against Iran I will say I don't, without crying about invalid questioning or not having many options for my answers.

And if you think so, well your name is Israeliguy so nobody can really expect a rational and thoughtful response from you.
All they have to do is see your post history on every single thread that has anything to do with Israel, Palestine, or Iran to see your not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch.

"LOLOL HIS NAEM IS ISRAELIGUY HE MUST BE ISREALI LOLZZzz!!1!1 HES STUPID CUZ UM HES LIKE FROM ISRAEL LOL!11|
..Yeah, as if I can expect anything else than a person with a psuedo intellectual username that can't even tell the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. When speaking of bright bulbs, at least don't humiliate yourself.

Also, your response didn't really make sense at all, your going to rub salt in my wounds after whining my butt out?

You're*
Yeah, people who support a nuclear attack on another country will be here crying and whining once that country trumps the other in a military conflict. I'm just letting you know beforehand that I'll be here, making fun of your posts while reminding you how you expressed your desire to see Israel being struck by a nuke.

Next time, stop, take a breath and think your responses out, otherwise you don't look very intelligent.

Lol, am I supposed to take intelligence advice from a person who has the spelling ability of an elementary school student and the understanding capability of a kinder gardener?
I think you're pretty off here buddy. Get that? You're? Hah.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

OK grammar and spelling Nazi. Thank you so much for correcting me on my spelling errors. Ya know, wouldn't want to fail my spelling test on the internet because it's so important in life.

How does one whine ones "butt out" ? Please explain.

So no one here knows how to give a proper answer.

It was a mistake of me to bother with such a thread...In a university setting, such as in philosophy, political philosophy, psychology or sociology course, this would be a question asked. The question is legitimate as it deals with two contradictory values: the pragmatist who fears a world war would accept the risk of Iran planning to nuke Israel - either with a missile, or, more probably, by handing it off to Hezbollah, than attacking Iran outright and risking a war.

A moralist conversely would forgo any thought of allowing Iran to commit the atrocity that it is obviously preparing for.

Simple. You can pick either a) or b), because ultimately, those are the only choices. You don't want to attack Iran? You're in category a) a pragmatist. Whether or not you understand the implications and ramifications of that choice only proves your mental immaturity, but in any case, you've gone with choice a). Someone who supports an attack on Iran understands that by not acting against Iran, you accept that Iran may attack Israel, and the consequences of that attack would be preferable to confronting them militarily.

None of you could come to this basic logical conclusion. Its either one or the other. There's no two views. There can't be.

I chose this:

•Defend an innocent state of 6 million Jews against a theocratic bully intent on genocide, and deal with the geopolitical consequences.

Stupid post, as it does not take into account the million other factors required to make a decision like this. It is just a moronic game of who is the better person instead of who is more realistic, pragmatic and what would actualy save more lives.

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy
The 25k Jewish people that are living in Iran are known as the Neturei Karta and are highly opposing a Jewish state in Israel until the Messiah comes.
They are a bunch of religious extremists, only time has brought them to the same side of the spectrum as the Islamic religious extremists. Something like the Jewish equivalent of Westboro Baptist Church.

The fact that this little info that there are 25k Jews in Iran is brought up every two minutes in ATS is nothing more than hilarious, as if there are no Arabs / Muslims / Persians living peacefully in Israel (not the West Bank/Gaza, Israel) regardless of their political views.


Besides, you guys are being asked a simple question. If Iran does publicly state it's intent on nuking Israel, would you support it?

edit on 20-8-2012 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)

So the 25,000 Jews who live in Iran are extremists because they respect the Palestinians right to live in their homeland in their houses that they've lived in and passed down from generation to generation prior to Israel recieving the land that was allocated to them. Also those Jews who live in Iran don't agree with the slaughter , human rights abuses , mass displacement through being forcibly removed from their property so settlers can live there instead leaving them homeless. So instead of being paid to go live in Israel at a house that was stolen from the Palestinians that were either forcibly removed or killed they opt to live in Iran in peace. Anyone who paints the jews in Iran as extremists are either brainwashed or are being willfully ignorant.

Jewish in Iran = good people with a heart for all people including the palestinian people.

Jewish in Israel who study the Talmud = religious extremists who have a delusional sense of righteousness. The Talmud teaches all kinds of evil deeds from slavery , thievery , assault , rape , torture , and murder is ok to carry out against non Jewish people. And It is justified because according to the book (Talmud) we are just animals and our only purpose is to serve the Jewish who believe and study the talmud.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Oh, Please enlighten us mighty wise SM with your infinite wisdom . Please.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The U.S. gave Israel a buttload of nukes,

It was the French. Several senior members in US administration helped in it thought without properly disclosing it to the USG.

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof
OK grammar and spelling Nazi. Thank you so much for correcting me on my spelling errors. Ya know, wouldn't want to fail my spelling test on the internet because it's so important in life.

Don't cry little one. I'm not usually a grammar nazi, but when someone uses pre-elementary school grammar to comment about my intelligence, I can't help but laugh. I'm not a grammar wiz myself but when I mock people I tend to check if I'm going to be embarrassed by my own posts later on, just like you are.

Originally posted by Lunky
So the 25,000 Jews who live in Iran are extremists because they respect the Palestinians right to live in their homeland in their houses blah blah blah I have no idea what am I talking about

Another one with reading difficulties?
I've explained why I claim they are extremists and obviously it's not because they respect any Palestinian right.
I've said it before - once their "Messiah" arrives, they will not respect any Palestinian right, and will be just as extreme as anyone that want to drive the Palestinians into the sea.

You're simply rooting for them because their ideology currently fits perfectly well with the anti-Israeli crowd. If you take a moment to read about their belief system, you will easily find that they will turn around completely once their supposed "Messiah" arrives. What will you say then? Will you still root for them? Will you still think they are loving people who have a heart unlike all the rest of the Jews? No, you will call them by their name - extremists. Just because their "Messiah" hasn't arrived yet you allow yourself to side with them, and vice versa.

To put it short - uneducated people use the NK rhetoric to give example of "sane" Jews, some even call them "real" Jews. What they conveniently leave out of the picture is the fact that they are simply waiting for their Messiah to arrive, then they are going to turn on the Palestinians as well.

Besides, people who go to meet with Nasralla after he launched randomly aimed rockets at Israel cities (at civilians, mind you), and called him "His excellency" for his actions, can never be considered sane people with a wide heart. But then again..... why would people like you who perform selective information gathering even care about the full picture? Yeah.. go and mention the fact they live in Iran once more to make good impression on your anti-Israel buddies and earn more stars. I won't be surprised one bit.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

Where have I read about it? Source? Lol, I have heard it straight from their mouthes. There are Neturei Karta living inside Jerusalem's most archaic neighborhoods, called "100 gates" (Or Me'aa She'arim). I don't need to read about them online to understand their agenda, although a quick google search will lead you to seeing they came to meet Nasrallah, called him "his excellency", after he shot hundreds of rockets blindly at Israel for the sole purpose of achieving as many casualties as possible.

Im going through the NKs official site right now. And nowhere do I read that Israel "should burn with as many casualties as possible" as you implied earlier.

I ask you again, do you have a source from the NK to support your claims?

It's an example, a wild one. Goes to show how irrelevant is the fact that 25K Neturei Karta Jews live in Iran, to saying Iran has no problems with Jews. You guys always mention it as if it goes to prove anything, but it doesn't. It's just like Israel will host a Saudi community who are highly opposing to the Iranian regime and super-friendly to the Israeli government, and use them as a political chip to say - "here, look, they live here peacefully and we all get along just fine, see? We're not racist".

I mentioned Irans 25K jews to disprove the OPs claim about Iran being genocidal towards Jews.This is the usual accusation against Iran.... that they are a nation of fundamentalists who hate anything thats jewish.
But the fact that they allow a jewish population to co-exist peacefully refutes any claim about the Iranians being anti-semitic.

As for your Saudi example.... yes. Governments everywhere would favor anybody who opposes the "enemy",
Going by your own example, it simply proves that Iran is calling for the end of the current government in Israel... and not jews in general, as the OP suggests.

America also hosts Iranians who are against the current Iranian regime... that only means they are against the Iranian regime.... not Iranians in general. Now apply the same standard to Iran. Iran hosts jews who are against the zionist regime in Israel not jews in general... as the OP claims.

Originally posted by dontreally
If it was definitively known that Iran had every intention to attack Israel with a nuclear bomb, would you act?

In other words, if the options were:

Defend an innocent state of 6 million Jews against a theocratic bully intent on genocide, and deal with the geopolitical consequences, or

Don't defend Israel in fear that attacking Iran preemptively would ignite a massive regional war, possibly creating the conditions for another World War.

If these are your two options, which do you pick? Where do you stand morally?

Shall another 6 million Jews be "sacrificed" (which is what the pitiful word 'holocaust' means) for the sake of some grander issue, or will they be protected from an invidious threat against their lives?

Innocent? Israel was created from the blood, pain and sadness of others! Go look at how these 'innocent' Israelis talk about Arabs! They call them sub human! They pretend to be the victims while settlers regularly harass and attack Arabs! How many Arabs have been 'sacrificed' for the wellbeing of Israel? How many more Arabs shall be 'sacrificed' to 'protect' the 'innocent' and 'peaceful' population of Israel? Quit with the propaganda and get your facts right.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Im going through the NKs official site right now. And nowhere do I read that Israel "should burn with as many casualties as possible" as you implied earlier.

I ask you again, do you have a source from the NK to support your claims?

You can forget about finding an official quote by NK that states their will to see Israel burn. They may be extremists but they are not stupid to give themselves such PR nightmares and reduce their legitimacy completely. After all, they still want to be taken seriously.

However, you can use the same investigation methods you are using while looking into anything Israel or American and add 1+1 to equal 2. When a religious sect which believe no Jew shall step foot into Israel is meeting with basically every dictator that ever launched an attack towards Israeli civilians, there can be no mistakes regarding their motives and ideology. They have met with Hamas leadership, Nasrallah, Assad, Ahmeddinerjacket, and numerous other organizations that may claim peaceful approach, but on the surface are doing their best in targeting civilian targets in Israel for the sole purpose of achieving as much casualties as possible. The best example would be Nasrallah, that 90% of his workforce is at the bottom line shooting rockets into Israeli cities.

Discussing Israel with any NK member in four eyes will reveal their ideology towards Israel.
Personally, although you will automatically discard my opinion and that is fine, I have met hundreds if not thousands of NK members in Israel that publicly show their intent on seeing the ground burn in the country they themselves live. I have seen demonstrations of them abroad, stating their will to see Israel nuked.

But rest assured that by reading their official site you will find no such claim.
I can't see how that is a problem, seeing as for example, the US have never publicly stated their will to milk Iran of their oil and set up a central bank there, yet the vast majority of this website is truly convinced that this is the will of the US government at the bottom line.
The same conclusion method can be applied when taking in mind the NK sect, especially considering that what's not hidden is their religious belief that AS LONG as the 'Messiah' hasn't arrived Israel shall not be inhabited by Jews (even the ones that do live in Israel go by that belief).

Again, once their 'Messiah' indeed arrives, what will all of you NK sympathizers say then?
Exactly.

I mentioned Irans 25K jews to disprove the OPs claim about Iran being genocidal towards Jews.

And I claimed that it does no such thing - it disproves nothing. They are nothing more than a political chip that naturally CURRENTLY holds the exact same opinions as the Iranian regime leadership publicly (and even worse opinions not publicly). They are the easiest pawn to use in order to say "Here, we don't hate Jews, take a look at our Jews! They live here peacefully!", but leave out the part where they are the strongest deniers of a Jewish state in Israel.

As I said, if one wants to prove Iran's neutrality towards Jews in general, and not Jews who are supporting the mass destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, he should present evidence of a single Zionist Jew that lives peacefully in Iran. No such thing exists.
You can get arrested in Iran for simply stating your support for the Israeli regime while being a Jew.

This is the usual accusation against Iran.... that they are a nation of fundamentalists who hate anything thats jewish.

Except Neturei Karta which support the genocide of Israel.

But the fact that they allow a jewish population to co-exist peacefully refutes any claim about the Iranians being anti-semitic.

Of course they allow them to co-exist peacefully, after all, enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's basically a living proof.
I don't know about anti-semitics and I never claimed such thing but for sure the Iranian regime holds grudge against anything Jewish as long as it is not NK, out of obvious reasons which I simply won't repeat 10 times in the same post.

As for your Saudi example.... yes. Governments everywhere would favor anybody who opposes the "enemy",

Indeed, therefore there is nothing spectacular in presenting the fact that these NK folks live in Iran. They are more than welcome, and the fact that they are Jewish only strengthen their 'case' that they are not anti Jewish. It's a really comfortable political chip - 'Jews who hold the same anti-Jewish opinions as us to live here so we could present them to anyone saying we dislike Jews'.
As I said, you have to be either blind or to close your eyes on purpose to have this pass through your eyes.

..Continued in the next post.

Going by your own example, it simply proves that Iran is calling for the end of the current government in Israel... and not jews in general, as the OP suggests.

No, it proves nothing. NK living in Iran doesn't prove Iran hates Jews or that they are neutral towards them. The only thing it proves is that people are gullible enough to be sucked in by such easy propaganda.

America also hosts Iranians who are against the current Iranian regime... that only means they are against the Iranian regime.... not Iranians in general.

Not only do they do that, but they also host numerous Iranians, Egyptians, Turks, Afghans, Pakistani and Muslims in general that are publicly outspoken against the US leadership and can be considered antisocial/anti-establishment/anti-government/whatever, while in Iran such a thing simply cannot happen - therefore it is valid to point out the entire Muslim community in the US while stating the US government does not hold grudge against Muslims, but invalid to point out the NK sect that lives in Iran while stating that Iran does not hold grudge against Jews.

Also, how many times does the fact that the US is hosting Iranians, or that Israel is hosting Iranians is being brought up? Not much and absolutely not nearly enough compared to the times the fact that 25k NK Jews living in Iran is brought up.

Now apply the same standard to Iran. Iran hosts jews who are against the zionist regime in Israel not jews in general... as the OP claims.

Um, yes. Iran hosts Jews who are against the Israeli regime. What about Jews who are supporting the Israeli regime? How many of them live in Iran? How many of them live peacefully? Yeah.

The whole point of Jews living in Iran is basically nothing more than a cheap, pathetic argument brought up numerous times on ATS because people aren't even educated enough to know:
1. Who these Jews are.
2. What is their ideology.
3. How many Muslims are living peacefully in US / Israel (Gaza and the West Bank not included!).
4. Why are these Jews so popular among the Iranian leadership, Hamas, Syria, Nasrallah etc.