" Belief In An Age Of Skepticism"

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posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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The Veritas Forum: Belief In An Age of Skepticism
A video by Tim Keller:

Here is a video of Tim Keller speaking at the University of Berkely in Cailifornia. the video is lengthy and meaty, a little over an hour and a half. Most of us do not have this kind of time to watch something in it's entirety, so I have broken down the essence of what is said.

"Belief in the age of skepticism"

I feel this video and explaination of these claims speaks to us all. Including, Athesist, Agnostic, Orthodox Christian, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, New Age and all organized and secular beliefs. It even addresses the theory of Evolution and Evolutions criticsm by secular philosophers.

As an orthodox Christian and an admirer of Tim Keller, I found this video seeks to answer some of the most difficult questions that most of us have on religion. I was surprised to see how my answers do the service of Christianity a great injustice. My eyes were open to the mistakes we make and keep repeating when we claim to know "the truth".

How do you you justify belief in God, especially the most exclusive of all Jesus Christ, the only one true way to God? To say "I know God and I know the truth is too exclusive and devisive . So the question is, how do people fit in?

Many believe "Until religion goes away there will never be peace on Earth.

Here are 5 ways people are trying to deal with exclusive truth claims and devisive ways of religion.

It is true, religion contributes to division, conflict and war in the world and this is how it works.

Stage 1. Superiority: You have the truth and they don't. You know better than them. Automatically by this claim you feel superior.

Stage 2. Separation: You just distance yourself from people whom believe differently than you. After all it is more meaningful for you to be around others that see the world as you do.

Stage 3. Characituring: Because you don't know them, you inagine all kinds of bizarre things about the person and what they believe.

Stage 4 and Stage 5: Active and Passive oppression. You begin to push these people away. You ignore them all together.

Religious belief in the truth leads to oppression of religion.

This is a very big problem and does NOT lead to peace at all.

Here are 5 things we do to deal with this big problem and why they won't work.

1. Hope it away. Years ago people believed the more technologically advanced and more economically developed a country became religion would just die out. From your very Robust

(fundementalist) you would go to a thinner population of believers they do not take the bible literally, and then just fade away.

Statistics tell us this is not happening. Keller goes onto give stats to back his claims.

Orthodox religion is not going away. The kind that speaks of miracles, Truth and scriptures. Something in the human heart that desires to know the truth is a permanent condition. We are gonna

have to learn to get along.

2. Outlaw it away. Keller gives examples of China and Russia and the populations exploded with Christianity after the religion was outlawed.

3. Explain and number four,argue it away: The New York Times Magazine did a survey over the last several years and it asked Evolutionary scientists this: Why are human beings so religious

and if you grant there is No God and everything has a natural cause, therefore every feature of your brain and your brains belief forming faculties is a natural selection. Everything is there because

it helped my ancestors survive somehow.
Then why are people so religious?

The evolutionists would answer, belief in God helped our ancestors survive otherwise it wouldn't be in our brain.

Several books have been writtenby Athesists on this subject:

Most people belive in morality; most people believe in God but it is because we are programmed by evolution to feel that way. Our belief forming faculties do NOT tell us the truth. If they just give

us the feeling there is a God, It does NOT mean there is a God , it just means those feelings helped our ancestors survive.

The problem is Evolutionary scientists use that argument on everything else! Whatever the claim you make, they will say "You were programmed for that." Here is an example:

I believe in God. "You were programmed for that".
I believe in morality. "You were programmed for that".
I believe in evolution.

Here is the question: If your belief forming falcuties don't tell you the truth but only what you need to survive, why believe them? Why believe when you observe the environment around you that they

are actually telling you what is out there? Why when you say you believe in evolution, why should you believe that?

Several philosiphers have stated: Ready ATS? "Mild paranoia is gonna be much more helpful for your survival than an actual assessment of your environment".

If you have a theory of evolution that states you can't trust what your brains belief forming faculties tell you, including what they tell you about evolution, then I can't trust the theory of evolution.

C.S. Lewis said " You can't go on explaining everything away forever, or you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You can't go on seeing through things forever. The whole point

of seeing through something is to see something else through it. It is good you can see through the a window because the garden is opaque. But if you can see through everything , then

everything would be transparent and a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. So to see through everything is the same as not to see at all.

If as Nietzsche says, "all truth claims are just power grabs". So is his, why listen to him?

If Freud says, "all views of God are really just projections to deal with our psychological guilt and insecurity". So is his, why listen to him?

If as the evolutionary scientists say, "what my brain tells me about morality and God is NOT real it's just chemical reactions designed to pass on my identity code" then so is what their brain tells

them about the world, why listen to them?

In the end, to see through everything is not to see at all.

People like to say, you mustn't make exclusive truth claims. They are trying to argue religions. When Christians say the one true way to God is through the son Jesus Christ, They are being

devisive, illegitimate and exclusive. It is just wrong.

Here are some of the arguments that don't hold up: This argument in particular was posed to an Imam, a Rabbi and a Minister: All religions are equally right. When we make a statement like that

we are not listening. It is impossible for all religions to be equally right.

Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God from heaven. In John: 8 Before Abraham existed, Jesus says I Am. There is a place where Jesus says, I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning. I am sure the people around him were saying, when was that? Where were you standing? Who are you? Jesus then says,
you know, I have been sending prophets and wise men for years and you keep killing them.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. The founders of all other religions said basically this about Jesus. I am a prophet that has come to help you find God. Jesus is the only one who came and said I Am God, come to find you.




posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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Either what Jesus said is a fact or not. If it is a fact, He is God, then he has a better way to God. If it is not a fact and he isn't God, then either he is deranged or fraudulent and it's an inferior way.

The Rabbi, the Imam, and the minister all agreed, that is perfectly right.

Either Christianity is a better religion or a worse religion but it is not the same. For you to claim it is, says you have not listened.

A fact is not narrow. Atheiests may say all religions are wrong. They will say you have little bits of wisdom here and there but you are not getting the big picture. No religion should say, no one can

know. The only way you can say, no religion sees the whole truth is if you actually see more truth than they do. You are making that claim of superior knowledge.

5. Religion is private and we should honor what people say. Nobody is being narrow, nobody should make exclusive truth claims.

You can't avoid exclusive truth claims. As soon as you say you shouldn't draw a line here, you have done just that by the previous statement.

Everybody is exclusisve. Narrowness is disdaining and belittles someone else's truth claim because you have your own. What people really need are people with exclusive truth claims that

humble them.

The fifth strategy is privatizing: Do not go into the public realm and argue from a religious stand point. Keep religious views out of the way. Let's agree to work together on the problems and find

practical
solutions. The problem here is that you can't. You can't begin to work on the problems unless you have underlying commitments to what human flourishing is. Underlying commitments are based

on views of human nature and spiritual reality, that can not be measured or proven in a test tube or proven to anybody.
Everybody has moral commitments that are not accessible to everyone else.

How do we come to an agreement? Let's find the neutral, universal scientific principles we all agree on.
They are not there. We have certain views and human flourishing that are based on our individual experience.

Keller then goes on to draw these final conclusions:

Here is a way through. Speaking to Christians: Christians are the biggest faith group in the world. So what is wrong with you secular people? Christians have to recognize that number one, we

are a big part of the problem but number two, we can also be at the heart of the solution.

They are two basic ways of self image. The first is a moral performance narrative:
"I'm okay, I'm a good person, I have self worth, I am achieving something". With this view, you can not help but look down your nose at others.

Religious point of view "I'm good, I go to church, I serve, I read my bible, I pray". With this view you can not help but look down your nose at others whom do not do these things.

Secular point of view: "I'm good, I work hard, I pay my bills. With this view you can not help but look down your nose at others.

But the Gospel is something different. We are all sinners. We can not even live up to our own standards. We are moral failures. Jesus comes and saves you. He is only for the weak and for the

people who can admit they are a moral failure. He is the reason you can look in the mirror and have significance.

When you can say I am a sinner saved by grace, Jesus died for me. You can't feel superior. Jesus came in weakness, had mercy and died for me. I am not better than anyone else.

So ATS can we have a discussion?
thanks for your time,
Pax




posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 10:43 PM
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A very coherent break down and some very important points to consider and/or adopt. Thank you.



posted on Aug, 21 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 



Stage 1. Superiority: You have the truth and they don't. You know better than them. Automatically by this claim you feel superior.

Stage 2. Separation: You just distance yourself from people whom believe differently than you. After all it is more meaningful for you to be around others that see the world as you do.

Stage 3. Characituring: Because you don't know them, you inagine all kinds of bizarre things about the person and what they believe.

Stage 4 and Stage 5: Active and Passive oppression. You begin to push these people away. You ignore them all together.


What you describe here is called Ad Hominem Fallacies. Atheists by their vary nature will dislike christians (they usually only target us, even here on ATS) because they reject our truth. Where Ad Hominem Fallcies come into play is they allow their bias to dictate what they believe or "disbelieve" and they love to cling to that word disbelieve, like it's a life preserver against having a belief (but their "disbelief" is a belief that there is no God or gods or Jesus the Messiah), so they will come and combat us about something they disbelieve in, but believe in Him enough to ridicule and troll us (either way we win because they are talking about Him and doing what he wants, but they think they have it all figured out). I digress. What ad hominem fallacies are, is when someone dislikes you or outright hates you, so they target your character other than what you present so that your character will cast dirt on what you present and they can thereby ignore anything you say.

Example "God doesn't exist because christians are all hypocrits" therefore they can then ignore anything you say within their own minds by locking us all into a stereotype. They hate you, therefore everything you say is automatically wrong.



posted on Aug, 21 2012 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 





Either what Jesus said is a fact or not. If it is a fact, He is God, then he has a better way to God. If it is not a fact and he isn't God, then either he is deranged or fraudulent and it's an inferior way.


This line of thinking is what leads to what is called the Trilemma to which 3 conclusions can be drawn. Jesus was either:

1. a liar
2. a lunatic
3. telling the truth

Archeaology has already begun to prove his existence with the discovery of Apostle Simon Peter, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Judah, Simeon and Philips tombs with Jesus aramaic name "Yeshua" and crosses carved into their ossuaries. Philip's tomb was found where he was last sighted in Turkey 2000 years ago, the other's tombs were discovered on the Mt. of Olives in a cemetary outside Bethany where Lazarus had lived and was resurrected from the dead.

Archeaology has also turned over a stone engraving found in Capernaum with Pontius Pilet, Prefect of Judea engraved on the tablet. Proving the historical accuracy of the Holy Bible.



posted on Aug, 21 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 


Religion will die under the weight of scientific evidence. It already has... but places of worship do a better job than even fox news at intentionaly misleading people or keeping infomation from them.

If you dont know god is dead by now... then there isnt much hope for you being able to survive without it.



posted on Aug, 21 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by paxnatus
 

If you dont know god is dead by now... then there isnt much hope for you being able to survive without it.



Prophets beat you to the punch millenia ago, they already told us what you just said, which actually makes their words weightier than yours.



posted on Aug, 25 2012 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
Religion will die under the weight of scientific evidence.


This makes NO sense at all...

WHY? Religion and Science are BOTH Illuminati mind control propaganda.



posted on Aug, 26 2012 @ 02:07 AM
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"...religion contributes to division, conflict and war in the world..."

That is an interesting statement that most people would agree with.

The reason most agree with it is because the NWO propaganda has been pumped into all of us since birth. That propaganda was designed to blame God for all the religious hypocrisy and wars throughout history.

Religion and wars are BOTH deliberate man made Illuminati creations which is why both of them result in so many deaths.


"One group and one group alone is responsible for virtually all wars and bloodshed on the face of this planet. The cabalist group I refer to is the Synagogue of Satan" LINK

Religion and cults are nothing more than mind control with a massive stealth agenda centered around causing people to hate the truth.

False Religion is satan's attempt at imitating God upon the earth and deceiving the entire human race.


All false religions are illuminati created Mind Control

Religions goal is to HIDE the truth from you.


"Today the religions of the world remain a major tool of the Illuminati agenda."

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link



posted on Aug, 27 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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The main point of contention that Atheist and other skeptics have concerning the existence of God is the idea that since God is not visible or physically observable in the world today, then He does not exist. This idea undermines the fact there are things that exist outside the visibility of human beings.

Think for a moment what are some things that you know exist but you yourself have never seen before with your very own eyes? For example, when was the last time you physically saw your heart beating? Chances are unless you have a heart ultrasound, or a heart transplant, you will never physically see your own heart, let alone your heart beating, even though you know it exists. Now think for a moment, and ask yourself how do I know I have a heart? In other words, what are the signs of the existence of your heart? If you are reading this, I am willing to bet your heart is beating. Besides that common signs of the existence of your heart is that you have a pulse, and if you perform strenuous physical activity then you can feel your heart beating in your chest.

God's existence is similar to the existence of your heart, in that you have never physically seen your own heartbeat but you know it exists due to the signs of your heart's existence. Therefore a natural question would be what are the signs of God's existence? The answer is through the Holy Bible and more specifically through Bible Prophecy we are able to observe the signs of God's existence. Bible Prophecy not only validates the Divine Inspiration of the Holy Bible but also the existence of God. In the same way we confirm your heart's existence via an echocardiogram (heart ultrasound) , the tool geared for studying the heart and it's properties, the Holy Bible is the tool geared for studying God and His properties. Bible Prophecy is the method/ technique used not only to validate the Holy Bible but also the existence of God. Just think of other things that exist outside of the vision of human beings such as atoms, sub-atomic particles, gravity, etc. All of these things are commonly known to exist and were discovered due to the signs of their existence.

There are other signs outside of Bible Prophecy that shows God's existence explained here






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