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Bill banning parents from trying to 'cure' gay kids moves forward

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posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc

LOL. I love it. Can't formualte a cohesive, logical point, so you pull the same old dismissive act.

Do you find it right to chemically halt a natural developmental milestone in a child too young to consent to such?


You are completely clueless on this subject.

Yes - - it is the correct thing to do. To stop masculine development of a girl born in a male body.

You are also clueless thinking the child is unaware.


edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)


ANd you are clueless to think that a toddler understands the differences and the makeup of sexuality and gender and can vocalize the same. No 3 year old is going to say they are "in the wrong body" and threaten to mutilate their own genitals without external influnces.




posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by detachedindividual

Gender identity issues are clearly not the same as being gay. This is why there are recognized psychological evaluations and treatments to go through when dealing with a gender issue.


Thanks. I'm trying to make this as simple and plain as I can.

There is zero comparison between Reparative Therapy - - - and Trans need for Hormone blockers.

He's trying to dump it all into one pot - - and it just isn't the same.






edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

ANd you are clueless to think that a toddler understands the differences and the makeup of sexuality and gender and can vocalize the same. No 3 year old is going to say they are "in the wrong body" and threaten to mutilate their own genitals without external influnces.


Gender identities are recognized by children as young as 3.

Why are YOU bringing sex into it?



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Gender identity issues are clearly not the same as being gay. This is why there are recognized psychological evaluations and treatments to go through when dealing with a gender issue.


Thanks. I'm trying to make this as simple and plain as I can.

There is zero comparison between Reparative Therapy - - - and Trans need for Hormone blockers.







There is quite a few parallels. You just look through the prism of ideology. I'll ask again, is it ethical and scientifically sound to chemically delay normal development in a preadolescent child who is not able (be definition) do give consent?



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc
I'll ask again, is it ethical and scientifically sound to chemically delay normal development in a preadolescent child who is not able (be definition) do give consent?


I already answered that.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I'll ask again, is it ethical and scientifically sound to chemically delay normal development in a preadolescent child who is not able (be definition) do give consent?


I already answered that.


No you didn't, you dodged around it. A simple yes or no would be helpful.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I'll ask again, is it ethical and scientifically sound to chemically delay normal development in a preadolescent child who is not able (be definition) do give consent?


I already answered that.


No you didn't, you dodged around it. A simple yes or no would be helpful.


No I didn't.

However - - YES - - it is absolutely ethical and scientifically sound to use hormone blockers with a trans child.

Chaz Bono agrees BTW.

I bet you didn't read one link I posted.


edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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Good thing for taking a child who is homosexual or bisexual, and bending them out of shape for your prejudice and religion to twist them up with counseling to try and make them not gay is absolutely abusive.

And that is what this is about.

No decent parent, worth their salt, is so authoritative and blind, as to try to pound a round peg in a square hole. This goes for more than sexual identity, but talents, skills, interests. So many parents suppress their children and try to force them to be who they are not, and against the real reason their souls are here, as if their children are not their own people, who it is an honor and a privilege to get to know and serve, and love.
edit on 29-8-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Unity_99
 


Did you read the story of the dad who started wearing skirts for the love of his son who prefers dresses?

So cute.

gawker.com...



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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According your bible, we should also not eat shelfish, we should take the wives of our slain enemies, blah blah blah...but Christians only seem to read and enforce what they choose. The biggest bunch of hipocrits you'll ever find.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I'm not quite sure what I think of that, but one thing is for sure, I would not put them down, or stand in the way of their doing this or the father, experimenting out of love for his son, to find ways to make his son comfortable.

But I want to give an example, all 5 of my sons are straight. Now, all 5 had fun when they were younger, trying on my makeup a bit, playing around with finger nail polish. Wearing whatever colors they wanted, and it was just playing or something fun. The two youngest dyed their hair red, and spiked it up like gara and put on some eyeliner when they were 7 and 5 respectively and looked so cute. The one has dark blond hair and pale white/rose skin and he literally looked like Lucile Ball with his coloring, perfect match, felt jealous, had wanted to be red all my life, my blond hair went to golden brown with red underneath, and blond streaks so I keep it dark blond, to keep my skin young, not sallow, and to blend the colors somewhat, its too patchwork quilt for me, but red, makes my skin look sallow instead of pale peachy.

Now my 16 year old is into rock star look and is in a small group of kids that do their hair wild, makeup and certain fashion sense, he wears makeup. He had white blond curls for years and baby blue eyes and almost albino coloring, pale skin and now he has longish, spiked straightened black hair, and loads of my makeup on.

He examined his feelings about is he straight, is he gay, is he bi, as he has friends who are all of these things, and girl I really hoped might be his soul mate. I met her and said, I really like her she is a conselor (I saw ET soul that came to watch over him actually) and it turns out her mother is and she is homosexual so they're just close friends.

In the end, despite him being so silly in my mind, and not the natural gorgeous kid he always was, its made him grow in personality, calm, laid back, with really interesting friends, and he looks great, looks better than the the muscians he likes so much, and is hanging out with an alternative interesting group of kids who play guitar, eat health foods, he started eating strawberries and fruit, and decided he liked girls sexually, wasn't really too comfortable at gettting hit on by the guys.

I am not going to dictate his lifestyle. He has apraxia and is getting through school irregardless of certain things like science being out of the question and is really into music, and also thinking of taking hair dressing as a survival skill. I've got a little business we'll be starting within a year for him too, that is creative and let him explore his music or any sklls he wants to develop. He has a good heart, but too much time in front of the mirror for me, LOL. I keep telling him, that is all the surface of life, stuff, develop your inner self.

But I have not stopped his search and have lost a few pieces of clothing, a few blazers, cute hats and scarves, a few tops here and there, but thankfully no dresses.

edit on 29-8-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc
I'll ask again, is it ethical and scientifically sound to chemically delay normal development in a preadolescent child who is not able (be definition) do give consent?


I already answered that.


No you didn't, you dodged around it. A simple yes or no would be helpful.


No I didn't.

However - - YES - - it is absolutely ethical and scientifically sound to use hormone blockers with a trans child.

Chaz Bono agrees BTW.

I bet you didn't read one link I posted.


edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)


I did and the advocate is now way an objective jouranl--in fact it does not even quality as a journal--it is an advocay paper that it is all idealogically base.

I'm not talking about adults. Consenting adults should have the right to do whatever they want with whomever they want. We are talking about forcing and/or encouraging samll children, as young as toddlers, to co under non-FDA approved treatments and drugs to stop their normal developement before they reach the age of majority. This can be seen as child abuse jsut as much as the christian wackos that try to pray away the gay. I reject both notions because that are unscientific, not FDA approved, and without long term safety and side effect testing, you accept only the one because of emotion and ideaology.

But, since you brought up Mr Bono, lets see how he is doing shall we?
First off also she admits of having her first sexaul experience as a preteen with a babysitter. Several studies indicate that transgenter feeling in young children may relate to early sexual abuse, lack of gender role models (dad or mom was out of hte picture, and examples and predispositions of the adults around them. Kids want to explore and want to be like their parents and want to experiment. As seen in several studies, people with GID are more apt to have parents with severe psycholigical disorders themselves giving an environmental link to external factors and role models.




Rearing / TraumaFor many years, many people, including psychiatrist and sexologist David Oliver Cauldwell,[2] argued that transsexualism is a psychological/emotional disorder caused by psychological factors.





The evaluation of parents of children with GID is essential in the treatment plan. Drs. Zucker, Bradley and colleagues in a 2003 study found that the rate of maternal psychopathology was high by any standard and included depression and bipolar disorder. The fathers particularly demonstrated depression and substance abuse disorder. They recommended that parental conflicts and psychopathology among the parents of children with GID deserved thoughtful consideration. (Zucker K, Bradley, S. et al. 2003. Psychopathology in parents of boys with gender identity disorder. J. Amer. Acad. Of Child & Adolesc. Psychiatry 42: 2-4).


Having abdoptive lesbian pareants from Berkley certainly fit the profile of the GID being influnced by the attitudes towards males by the feamle caregivers:



boys with GID appear to believe that they will be more valued by their families or that they will get in less trouble as girls than as boys. These beliefs are related to parents’ experiences within their families of origin especially tendencies on the part of mothers to be frightened by male aggression or to be in need of nurturing, which they perceive as a female characteristic. (Susan Bradley, Affect Regulation and the Development of Psychopathology, NY: Guilford Press, 2003, p. 201-202)





"The boy, who is highly sensitive to ma­ternal signals, perceives the mother's feelings of depression and anger. Because of his own insecurity, he is all the more threatened by his mother's anger or hostility, which he perceives as di­rected at him. His worry about the loss of his mother intensifies his conflict over his own anger, resulting in high levels of arousal or anxiety. The father's own difficulty with affect regulation and inner sense of inadequacy usually produces withdrawal rather than approach.





Paul McHugh, M.D., University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry and past Chair of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, has a much different view of the attempt to change the sex of children. (www.mercatornet.com/articles/experimenting_with_childrens_sexual_identity.) His studies of transgender surgery brought the procedures to an end there. He has stated that, "Treating these children with hormones does considerable harm and it compounds their confusion. Trying to delay puberty or change someone's gender is a rejection of the lawfulness of nature."






A 2011 Swedish study on follow for patients after sex reassignment found considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Their findings suggested that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, (Lichtenstein, D.C., 2011.)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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So instead of you "research" using the advocate, real scientists with real peer reviewed journal articles bring up a hosts of problems in the preadolescent GID. I think you only find using drugs in nonconsenting children for non FDA approved interference with natural developement "ethical" because it supports your ideology. Damn the children as losng is it fits your worldview.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc
So instead of you "research" using the advocate, real scientists with real peer reviewed journal articles bring up a hosts of problems in the preadolescent GID. I think you only find using drugs in nonconsenting children for non FDA approved interference with natural developement "ethical" because it supports your ideology. Damn the children as losng is it fits your worldview.


Where did I say I used the Advocate for research? I didn't. Those are personal stories.

What I actually said is - - - I've been following gay and related subjects for about 20 years. In other words - - I've read a lot of stuff - - watched some documentaries - - etc.

My ideology? What would that be exactly - - - as a straight married woman and grandmother.

Is this a new specialized field? Yes it is. What is important? The welfare of the patient.

You can pull up research 'til doomsday - - - whatever you find - - - there's gonna be counter support. So it really doesn't mean anything. Which is why I don't do it anymore.

As far as Chaz Bono - - - I prefer his personal opinions from his own mouth. He said he wished they had hormone blockers when he was young.

You keep you science - - - I'll keep the personal stories.

Kind of reminds me of Sister Kenny.












edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc
So instead of you "research" using the advocate, real scientists with real peer reviewed journal articles bring up a hosts of problems in the preadolescent GID. I think you only find using drugs in nonconsenting children for non FDA approved interference with natural developement "ethical" because it supports your ideology. Damn the children as losng is it fits your worldview.


Where did I say I used the Advocate for research? I didn't. Those are personal stories.

What I actually said is - - - I've been following gay and related subjects for about 20 years. In other words - - I've read a lot of stuff - - watched some documentaries - - etc.

My ideology? What would that be exactly - - - as a straight married woman and grandmother.

Is this a new specialized field? Yes it is. What is important? The welfare of the patient.

You can pull up research 'til doomsday - - - whatever you find - - - there's gonna be counter support. So it really doesn't mean anything. Which is why I don't do it anymore.

As far as Chaz Bono - - - I prefer his personal opinions from his own mouth. He said he wished they had hormone blockers when he was young.

You keep you science - - - I'll keep the personal stories.

Kind of reminds me of Sister Kenny.












edit on 29-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)

So you read the advocate but blow off the scientific journals I put up for you. GOt it, you don;t like science that contradicts your stories.

I'll stick with science, and you can stick with anecdotes--just understand that anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all. THe science is showing more and more that untimately we are harming children. Using chemicals to stop development and enabling childish poor choices without getting to the root of the matter first.



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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And here is just one negative critique of the famous doctors from John Hopkins.

EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION.


This morning, I read that the following inflammatory remarks were published in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine: … [Only when psychiatrists address] psychiatric disorders in the same way that internists address physical disorders, explaining the clinical manifestations … by the causal processes and generative mechanisms known to provoke them … will psychiatry come of age as a medical discipline and a field guide [the DSM – Diagnostic and Statistical Manual] cease to be its master work. - Paul McHugh, MD and Phillp Slavney, MD in the NEJM [emphasis added]

Damn, that’s cold. And did I mention it was published in the New England Journal of Medicine (!), which is “one of the world’s most prestigious medical journals… cited in scientific literature more frequently than any other biomedical journal”? All kinds of doctors, clinicians, and practitioners read this thing!

A big deal.

Sounds like the authors are saying mental illness is fundamentally NOT like diabetes, that psychiatry as a discipline will continue to suffer from its immaturity and crippling inferiority complex (“we wanna be scientists, too!”) as long as diagnosis doesn’t rest on a firmly established foundation of physical pathology, and that the DSM is a poor substitute for that kind of a foundation.

Them’s fighting words. Words that might make the NEJM readership think twice before handing out diagnoses and their accompanying pharmacological interventions like the proverbial candy. altmentalities.wordpress.com...



posted on Aug, 29 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


I honestly don't care what "official crap" you pull up.

I've had a lifetime of doctors of all flavors - - even a couple psychiatrists (because it was all in my head). I know we need doctors - - but I'm not a big fan.

Doctors need to listen to their patients more. I probably wouldn't have had a lifetime of physical suffering - - if just one of them had dug a little deeper.

"Trans" is a very new field. Their issues are multiple - - - and hardly all physically related.

DONE NOW.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
You are still going round and round. Either you truly dont get it, or you are being intentionally obtuse. Either way, this is stupid.




Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Ad hominid? Good lord, I'm debating someone who doesnt even have a basic vocabulary. I am now embarrassed for wasting this much time on you.

What attacks????
I'm not the one calling others trolls. Thought that was a no no established by the mods and rules here??
Nothing like making your own crap up. You know, rules, offsite web quotes and imaginary laws that you fail to provide actual statutes to.


Originally posted by captaintyinknots
And now you are claiming domestic abuse is legal too. And you say I have a twisted view on things

Sure sure Mr. Alinsky.
Never said that. Please provide my quote stating as such. Maybe a quote from when I lived in Australia.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots

No, because you call a source bunk without even reading it. That makes you a troll, my friend. And not a very good one.

A crafty trap? Naw, it was a fairly simple one.
edit on 29-8-2012 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)


Nope, I read it. And after re-reading it, noticed the URL.
You tried to peddle BS and were caught. Now, like a 5 year old, don't like that you were caught and try to blame others for either your mistake or blatant attempt to deceive.

TheImmaculateD1, is that you???



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by GoldenRuled
I'm christian. I have no opinion on homosexuality except, God said it's wrong. Haven't heard anything from the last 2 millenia indicating He changed his mind.



Did god ever say it was the job of man to try to change the sexuality of other individuals
that GOD himself created???



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