Coin repressed with skull and bones...

reply to post by Aslpride

Huh...those pictures are really neat, but I'm also into collecting old stuff. Take them to an appraiser, maybe you'll find they are worth quite a bit and hold on to them.

reply to post by zonetripper2065

Could be Marine, old time Marine.

How is seven stars a Masonic symbol? Seven is a number used in Masonry and we have used stars in degree and concordant bodies, but seven stars isn't really used. Nor does the use of seven constitute it as a Masonic item. In the Illustrious Order of the Red Cross we use a seven-pointed star, but there isn't seven of them. Though it should be noted that no symbol has an exclusive or singular meaning or definition, or use by only a specific group or culture.

reply to post by totallackey

You should see the Detroit Masonic Center. It is the largest Masonic structure in the world.

reply to post by wade12


If you were to sell it to a member of ATS such as Chrisfishenstein, how much would you ask?

I would be interested, U2U me if you are interested......I collect old coins, mostly silver, but I would love to add a piece such as this...

Thanks for sharing!!

i collect coins (currency) as well, and although i rarely save tokens or badges etc i have a feeling this one will be staying with me, unless it turns out to be kkk (or similiar) related.

if i had to guess i would think ebay would fetch $50 +/- $25 with the info i have so far. IF i can attribute it to a specific group that could maybe double on a good day.

personally i think the cool factor is worth more than $50-$150, however solving the puzzle will be the most valueable thing of all.

reply to post by KSigMason


Thank you so much for sharing the pictures of the Detroit Masonic Center...It is a very impressive structure, with a great deal of interesting history!

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Never claimed to be a mason nor would I want to be one.But if I were claiming to be a mason and to know what I'm talking about I'd make sure to at least know what I'm talking about. Just because your group doesn't use it doesnt make it untrue. Some of the first masons to call themselves Americans used these symbols. But your the high level mason I'm the troll I'll just leave these link right here. There ya go have a good one.


link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4
Link 5
link 6

reply to post by KSigMason


Please refer to the post above this one.

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
Some of the first masons to call themselves Americans used these symbols. But your the high level mason I'm the troll I'll just leave these link right here. There ya go have a good one.

The first four links are all to Canadian lodges which operate under English Consitution.

The fifth link, to Washington's apron, would also have been under English Constitution as the respective State Grand Lodges had not yet been formed.


Again, the tracing boards and accompanying lectures would not have been relevant to an Indianpolis Mason at the time the coin in the Original Post was struck.

reply to post by totallackey

I've been running a series on the various Masonic buildings around the US.

reply to post by zonetripper2065

Well, Freemasonry isn't for everyone.

I don't claim to know everything, but I'm fairly confident in what I say, particularly about the symbolism of the Craft and its appendant bodies.

What early American Freemasons used the seven stars? Maybe I'll see it in the links, but I just want to make this question here. Our Founders and the world in general in that time used lots of symbols because of the illiteracy rate was extremely high and symbols conveyed much more than the written word.

What's a "high level Mason"? I'm not a high level Mason by any means, but I'm curious as to what non-Masons think is "high level".

As for your links: All very nice looking aprons and tracing boards, but I don't see how this goes against anything I said before which was symbols don't have an exclusive meaning, definition, interpretation, nor are they used exclusively by any one group or culture. Most symbols have been used throughout history for different reasons and by different people for different reasons and interpretations. Symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


How do we know what year the coin was pressed? could have been in 42 could have been in 2002 only a blowhard could claim to actually know. First these symbols didn't exist now they do exist but not for people in Indianapolis dude your ridiculous.

reply to post by KSigMason


In the post was referring to the "agustusmasonicus" having "high level mason" after his name. Damn near every founding father and American mason into the 1800's was an ENGLISH mason. There for, the tracing boards were a part of there ritual. 1st tracing board 7 stars, 3rd tracing board skull and bones. I'm done wasting time here.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Our Founders and the world in general in that time used lots of symbols because of the illiteracy rate was extremely high and symbols conveyed much more than the written word.

The earliest instruments of education were symbols; and they and all other religious forms differed and still differ according to external circumstances and imagery, and according to differences of knowledge and mental cultivation. To present a visible symbol to the eye of another is not to inform him of the meaning which that symbol has to you. Hence the philosopher soon super-added to these symbols, explanations addressed to the ear, susceptible of more precision, but less effective, obvious, and impressive than the painted or sculptured forms which he despised. Out of these explanations grew by degrees a variety of narratives, whose true object and meaning were gradually forgotten. And when these were abandoned, and philosophy resorted to definitions and formulas, its language was but a more refined symbolism, grappling with and attempting to picture ideas impossible to be expressed.

Morals & Dogma, Ch. XXV, p513

reply to post by zonetripper2065

Masonry existence in America can sure be traced back to the British, Irish, and Scottish immigrants and troops, but in America, even in that time, Freemasonry was changing and different from that which was across the Atlantic, particularly after the end of the 18th century.

Not every or "near every" Founder was a Mason, American or English.

I guess I'm speaking over your head when I discuss that symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous.

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
How do we know what year the coin was pressed? could have been in 42 could have been in 2002 only a blowhard could claim to actually know. First these symbols didn't exist now they do exist but not for people in Indianapolis dude your ridiculous.

Let me walk you through it because you are obviously having issues.

First, the Original Poster stated that it was an Indian Head Penny. These were produced from 1859 to 1909.

Second, Indiana joined the United States in 1816.

Third, the Grand Lodge of Indiana was chartered in 1817.

Fourth, the Baltimore Convention in 1843 sought to establish uniform ritual throughout the United States.

Fifth, Indiana ritual is derived from Kentucky and Ohio which is derived from Virginia, which by the time they gave their ritual to the preceding, used a fusion of Ancient and Modern and thus no tracing board lecture.

These points all obviously narrow down the time in which the penny was produced and any relevance on it to Masonry could have occured.

Please feel free to contact the Grand Lodge of Indiana, or a Lodge in that state, and ask them at what time they opted to not go with the tracing board lecture if you feel this is in error.

MYSTERY SOLVED:

the 'coin' is from a high school fraternity formed in Muncie Indiana in 1899. beta phi sigma.

source: American Secondary School Fraternities published in 1912 by J. Ward Brown.

it went on to be a national fraternity with 74 chapters. off shoots can be found around the globe.

some history of the fraternity can be found here: betans1979r7.blogspot.ca...

the text in the crest does not exactly match any of the chapters at the time the book was published, so it is likely it was either produced very early on in the evolution of the fraternity, or was for a chapter added after the book was published, or is code/motto/membership rank etc. i would tend to lean towards for a chapter added after 1912.

the PENNY used was in production from the US mint from 1860-1909, it is entirely possible that it was stamped into badge form any time after 1899 up until present day, but most likely in the first quarter of the 20th century.

thanks for all the input, you guys can argue the masonic symbols all you want but as far as i am concerned this is CASE CLOSED.

reply to post by wade12

Good find!

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Fair enough but you saying "symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous" then denying that these symbols have/could been used is double talk.
I'm not missing anyone's point.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


That doesnt narrow down any time frame what so ever. I have stamps and dies of many different types I have coins from Egypt minted in 200BC. I can stamp any coin I like from any year I like just as well in 2012. I'm not looking to split hairs and change the topic of discussion. But you were incorrect in saying these symbols were not used by masons. I proved my point and that is all.
Yes this coin is not mason but the fact I'm arguing is these symbols historically in fact are(were).

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
Fair enough but you saying "symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous"...

Are you confusing me with someone else because I never said what you have quoted?

...then denying that these symbols have/could been used is double talk.

I said they were not used, they are not, nor have been for close to 200 years. The seven stars have been irrelevant to any United States Mason for some time so their appearance on the coin would have been been non-Masonic (as was subsequently borne out).

Originally posted by zonetripper2065
But you were incorrect in saying these symbols were not used by masons. I proved my point and that is all.
Yes this coin is not mason but the fact I'm arguing is these symbols historically in fact are(were).

The symbols are no-longer used and therefore can not be considered a 'Masonic symbol', unless of course you are in the English Constitution lodges. But since this was an American coin it is obvious that they held no relevance for close to 200 years.

It is obvious that the coin's pedigree proves that these symbols had nothing to do with Masonry.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Yeah, he was addressing me in that response. I guess he was in a hurry or something.