Unusual amount of air activity today (with pics)

ANOK says:

"I know how con-trails act and they VERY RARELY last for more than a few minutes."

Well, since contrails are ice crystals, and cirrus clouds are ice crystals, are you saying that cirrus clouds that hang around for more than a few minutes are the result of some Secret Spraying Plot? This is wondrous and astounding, because sailors have talked about persistent cirrus clouds for hundreds and hundreds of years!

Have you ever taken a basic meteorology course? Do you know about radiative forcing or phase change or supersaturation or seed-crystal activation or the difference between sublimation and melting?

"So either they are spraying something, or the way our atmosphere works has changed in a big way."

What evidence do you have for our atmosphere changing?

Cold and moist -- ice crystals stay; not-so-cold and/or not-so moist -- ice crystals go away.

What could be simpler than that?

"And i don't care what you say con trails do not linger for hours after they are made and spread out and join together into a "cloud" mass."

Why not? Are you saying this because you don't believe in atmospheric physics or is it that you just want there to be "chem-trails"?

"Unless you guys have some proof that chem trails do not exist pls keep an open mind about this."

Do you have some proof that I am not the King of France? Since you don't, should you keep an "open mind" and assume I really am the King of France -- or do you expect me to come up with something to back up my assertions?

Come on, ANOK, an open mind is one thing; it means being willing to look at any evidence.

But you don't have any evidence at all!

[edit on 14-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]

netobrev quotes:

"Artificial clouds made by humans may become so common they change the Earth's climate."

Right. Cirrus clouds are cirrus clouds; it doesn't matter whether they are made by convection condensation or aircraft-induced condensation. There is a very real concern that these clouds, regardless of how they're made, can significantly alter the weather and the climate of the Earth.

"The long thin cloud streaks that dominate the above satellite photograph of Georgia are contrails, cirrus clouds created by airplanes...."

True; they are cirrus clouds (which means they're ice crystals) and they follow the same atmospheric physics rules that any other cirrus clouds do.

"Contrails have become more than an oddity - they may be significantly increasing the cloudiness of Earth, reflecting sunlight back into space by day, and heat radiation back to Earth even at night. The effect on climate is a topic of much research."

Correct. No one knows for sure whether or not there is a net increse or decrease in temperature, but one thing we do know is that the delta, that is, the difference between daytime temperatures and nighttime temperatures, is significantly less. This in itself could be a stressor to plants and animals which have evolved to live with a larger diurnal temperature delta.


[edit on 14-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]

I have no doubt that they are ice crystals, exhaust hitting the cold air.
My question is why so much air patrol, as of recent??? I have not
seen this much air patrol since post-9/11.
Do you think that they are really expecting something to happen?
Post-9/11 they stopped the air-patrol due to the expense they created.
NY skies look exactly like the pics posted here.
Then with the DC Senator closing his office, I'm really starting to wonder.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
ANOK says:

"I know how con-trails act and they VERY RARELY last for more than a few minutes."

Well, since contrails are ice crystals, and cirrus clouds are ice crystals, are you saying that cirrus clouds that hang around for more than a few minutes are the result of some Secret Spraying Plot? This is wondrous and astounding, because sailors have talked about persistent cirrus clouds for hundreds and hundreds of years!

Have you ever taken a basic meteorology course? Do you know about radiative forcing or phase change or supersaturation or seed-crystal activation or the difference between sublimation and melting?

"So either they are spraying something, or the way our atmosphere works has changed in a big way."

What evidence do you have for our atmosphere changing?

Cold and moist -- ice crystals stay; not-so-cold and/or not-so moist -- ice crystals go away.

What could be simpler than that?

"And i don't care what you say con trails do not linger for hours after they are made and spread out and join together into a "cloud" mass."

Why not? Are you saying this because you don't believe in atmospheric physics or is it that you just want there to be "chem-trails"?

"Unless you guys have some proof that chem trails do not exist pls keep an open mind about this."

Do you have some proof that I am not the King of France? Since you don't, should you keep an "open mind" and assume I really am the King of France -- or do you expect me to come up with something to back up my assertions?

Come on, ANOK, an open mind is one thing; it means being willing to look at any evidence.

But you don't have any evidence at all!

[edit on 14-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Con-trails are not cirrus clouds just because they are made from the same thing. Con-trails are formed at 30,000+ ft. when hot humid air from jet engines is momentarily cystallized by contact with cold air. Con-trails quickly evaporate as the ice cystals melt. Under certain conditions, near saturation, con-trails can linger for longer periods of time but they do not expand in size and stay a dense white color. They thin out as they slowly spread and look different to chem trials.
It is the same reaction as your breath on a cold day.
Do you see your breath hanging around and creating cirrus clouds...lol?
Chem-trail are seen at far lower altitudes than 30,000 ft.

I don't have any evidence for the atmosphere changing, I didn't even say it was. I was being sarcastic, I gues you didn't get it. Obviously our atmosphere and the formation of con-trails has not changed.

No I don't want chem trails to exist, but you seem to want to deny their existence no matter what kind of evedence there is. What have you got to loose by exposing this practice? It is happening, I've seen it being done, on two occasions.
And the King of France analogy is just stupid. Why do you feel threatened by the possibilty this might be really happening? Is it your trust in your government that you don't want tainted? Can't live with the idea that a country and government that you have blindly trusted may be doing stuff of this nature?

I don't believe they are spraying people anyway, I think they are trying to effect our weather. Either trying to make rain, we are getting short on water in a lot of places. Or they are trying to cool down the atmosphere.
Russia and the US have been experimenting with weather control for yrs. the Russians spray or seed clouds to make or stop rain. So the idea is not at all far fetched.

Chem-trail vs con-trail;



www.cuttingedge.org...

777-health.members.easyspace.com...

www.wealth4freedom.com...

www.whale.to...

www.ananova.com...

[edit on 14-10-2004 by ANOK]

[edit on 14-10-2004 by ANOK]

I have always thought that the contrails and chemitrails are signals to the outside world. I mean looking at the pics posted above it seems the trails are in a pattern some kind of language. Maybe it is the world goverments communicating to other beings that can see the Earths atmosphere, I dunno.

ANOK says:

�Con-trails are not cirrus clouds just because they are made from the same thing. Con-trails are formed at 30,000+ ft. when hot humid air from jet engines is momentarily cystallized by contact with cold air.�

Momentarily? If the temperature is minus forty degrees, then what mechanism do you suggest that make them not be crystallized? Are you suggesting that the hot air from a jet plane will heat up the whole sky at 30,000 feet to the point where the ice will no longer stay as ice? That would require quite a bit of heat, wouldn�t it?

�con-trails quickly evaporate as the ice cystals melt.�

At minus forty degrees, water ice acts like solid carbon dioxide (�dry ice�). It doesn�t melt, it sublimes, which means it goes from a solid directly to a gas. Chemistry 101.


�Under certain conditions, near saturation, con-trails can linger for longer periods of time but they do not expand in size and stay a dense white color.�

Then what makes �normal� cirrus clouds -- or any other clouds, for that matter -- expand and not stay a dense white color? Magic? What is it about contrails that makes them immune from the same atmospheric physics that runs everything else in the sky?

�Do you see your breath hanging around and creating cirrus clouds...lol?�

No, but that�s probably because I don�t breathe out superheated air at 30,000 feet � lol.

�Chem-trail are seen at far lower altitudes than 30,000 ft.�

So are contrails. You can see persistent contrails at altitudes as low as 20,000 feet, if the atmospheric conditions are right. And how do you know how high a contrail is? No one is able to accurately gauge altitudes; there�s simply nothing there to use as a frame of reference.

�No I don't want chem trails to exist, but you seem to want to deny their existence no matter what kind of evedence there is.�

You keep talking about �evidence� but you never seem to come up with any. Why is it that none of the �chem-trail� believers have ever shown me -- or anyone else -- any evidence?

You keep repeating -- like some sort of mantra -- that �contrails disappear and chem-trails don�t.� Yet none of you can ever come up for a reason why that is the case if it were true. What is it about your so-called �chem-trails� that makes them persist, if there really is a difference?

And if I�m one of these stupid sheeple who simply won�t accept �evidence� then I�m in good company, because every single weatherman, meteorologist, atmospheric physicist, pilot and aerospace engineer -- in other words, all the people that ought to know about such things -- are stupid sheeple, too, just like me. And it seems that all the people who believe in �chem-trails� must believe that all these scientists and weathermen and pilots -- all of them -- are either really stupid or they�re all part of a Huge Secret Plot or something.

�What have you got to loose by exposing this practice?�

Exposing this practice? Are you saying now that I�m a part of the Huge Secret Plot, too? ROFLMAO!!!

�And the King of France analogy is just stupid.�

I think it makes a lot of sense. You, like most �chem-trail� believers, when you fail to come up with any coherent evidence, always seem to come back to the same tired old �well, you can�t prove that they don�t exist, can you?�

Me expecting you to believe I�m the King of France because you can�t prove I�m not the King of France is stupid, I admit.

That is my point.

Your saying that you expect me to believe in your �chem-trail� myth because I can�t prove they don�t exist is just as stupid!

You see, ANOK, the way science -- real science, not �chem-trail� science -- works is that a person makes a hypothesis to explain his observations about the way a part of the Universe works. It�s up to that person to show that his hypothesis explains the way things are better than other hypotheses -- and he has to show other scientists evidence for his hypotheses. Not proof, ANOK, just evidence.

Scientists explain persistent contrails by basic atmospheric physics. All of the so-called anomalies that �chem-trail� believers worry about -- like start-and-stop contrails, tic-tac-toe contrails, etc. -- can be easily explained by basic atmospheric physics and the way airplanes fly.

Your hypothesis, on the other hand, requires that there has to be some Huge Secret Plot and that violates a lot of basic physical laws, and the whole concept of aircraft logistics, and requires a bazillion guys (including me) to be in on the Huge Secret Plot and no one has ever blabbed it, and, finally�.

�You still can�t even say what these �chem-trails� are for!

I�m sorry, ANOK. I don�t want to get into a urinary Olympiad with you or anything, but you don�t appear to understand the physics of the atmosphere, you can�t show me any evidence of your hypothesis, and you can�t even tell me what this Huge Secret Plot is supposed to be doing.

Your kung-fu is weak.

Well for starters here's an airplane pilot for you:

www.chemtrailcentral.com...

Not ALL airplane pilots think chem-trails are a myth.

An air traffic controler:

www.citizenspokane.net...

www.earthrainbownetwork.com...
(scroll down a little)

Some more food for though:

www.educate-yourself.org...


As far as why this is being done I thought I mentioned weather control in my last post.
It's got nothing to do with ppl being sheeple, many things that turn out to be true are debunked by many types of ppl for whatever reason. Mostly if ppl don't want to believe something, for whatever reason, they won't.
Why is the idea that spraying in an attempt to control the weather is so far fetched? Our powers that be are control freakes, why not control the weather? An attempt to fix what they screwd up to begin with.
Also I agree con-trails can be lower in the atmosphere on RARE ocations if the weather conditions are right. So why are the weather conditions suddenly right for this to happen in so many places at the same time on so many occasions just lately?
But the one thing that convinces me is I have watched it being done. I can't prove to you that I did but I know what I saw. On two different occasions I watched, both times, 2 aircraft flying back and forth accros the sky.
One traveling north then south, the other east then west. They were working together creating a chequerboard pattern of con\chem trails across the sky.
I sat in a park in a major city and watched this for over an hour the first time. When they were done the trails were starting to come together to form one mass cloud layer. In all my experience as a Navy jet mechanic at sea and on land I have never seen regular con trails do that.
I also live close to a major airport and at no other time in 6 yrs have I seen that extent of con trails from commercial flights, and I am a sky watcher.
Few commercail airliners actualy fly over the city itself like those others were.
The usual flight path takes them over the ocean and less populated areas, and those that do come over the city are usualy too low to create con trails anyway cause they are on a landing approach. Or have just taken off.

The best kind of evidence is personnal experience, but you have no reason to believe me. I don't expect you to. And convincing you that there might be even the tinest possibilty that this is really happening is not gonna change anything anyway. So we'll just agree to disagree. Maybe one of these days we will all know the truth.

[edit on 15-10-2004 by ANOK]

ANOK Says:

"Well for starters here's an airplane pilot for you:

www.chemtrailcentral.com..."

And of course the "airplane pilot" is anonymous, and even the other posters there (who all believe in "chem-trails") call him a hoax.

Let's try again:

"An air traffic controler:
www.citizenspokane.net..."

The page cannot be found

Let's try again:

www.earthrainbownetwork.com...
(scroll down a little)

Here's how it identifies your "Air Traffic Controller": "Deep Sky", an air Traffic Control Manager, at a major Northeast Airport interview by a reported ...'

Again, an anonymous person, i.e., someone who probably was was made up. Isn't it odd that none of these "witnesses" ever seem to have any names?

Are we seeing a pattern here, ANOK?

"Some more food for though: www.educate-yourself.org..."

Food for thought? Edward Teller, in his late eighties, comes up with the idea that if you spray aluminum powder in the sky, it will stop global warming. Teller also came up with the idea, in the 1960s, that we can use controlled thermonuclear explosions to carve out harbors and canals. Now are you saying that the ramblings of an 80-something year old guy is some kind of proof of "chem-trails"? If you accept that, perhaps you'd care to show us where all the secret hydrogen bomb-dug canals are. I mean, Teller talked about them, too, right?

"Why is the idea that spraying in an attempt to control the weather is so far fetched?"

It's not necessarily far-fetched, except that you don't have any evidence that it's happening. You could say that building huge solar electric stations in geosynchronous orbit, then turning the electricity to microwaves and beaming it down for us to use fo electricity is not "far-fetched", either, but that doesn't mean that they're doing it.

"Our powers that be are control freakes, why not control the weather?"

Work with me on this, ANOK. If the "powers tha be" are able to control the weather and have been doing it in some sort of Huge Secret Plot vfor the past x number of years, then why has the weather been so bad recently with all the hurricanes, droughts, etc.? I mean, are they controlling the weather or not?

"An attempt to fix what they screwd up to begin with."

So now you're postulating Two Huge Secret Plots -- the one that Screwed Everything Up, and the one thats Trying to Fix the Screwup. And you still have no evidence whatsoever for either of these Huge Secret Plots. Your hypothesis is just getting more and more complex.

"Also I agree con-trails can be lower in the atmosphere on RARE ocations if the weather conditions are right. So why are the weather conditions suddenly right for this to happen in so many places at the same time on so many occasions just lately?"

Because of three reasons, all of which I have mentioned before.

First, with airline deregulation, there are more aircraft then there were five and ten years ago.

Second, most of the turboprop short-haul airliners like the Lockheed Electras are gone, replaced with real jets from Bombardier and Embraer. These planes fly higher , and as a result, are at contrail-forming altitudes, whereas the turboprops were five to seven thousand feet lower where the temperature was usually to wrm for contrails to persist.

Third, becaue of the push to clean aircraft fuels, the newer fuels have additives which make them burn hotter and cleaner, which means that, although they don't spew hydrocarbons in the sky, they push out a lot more hot and wet air which makes contrails much more likely to form.

As a former jet aircraft mechanic (I assume you were an Aviation Machinist's Mate and have an A&P tickert), I am surprised that you don't know about additives like anti-knock additives, anti-oxidants, static dissipator additives, corrosion inhibitors, fuel system icing inhibitors, metal de-activators, biocide additives, and thermal stability improver additives -- these all increase the heat of combustion, don't they?

And finally, on each of your posts, you have brought up several comments which I hope I have answered.

Why haven't you answered the questions about meteorology and cloud formation that I brought up?

Don't you think you owe it to the other readers here -- if not to me -- to do so?

Dude I'm sorry I thought I answerd all the queastions I am able to.
This is not my thread so I'll make this my last post.
I don't need to convince you or anybody else of chem trails. Like I said we'll agree to disagree. I just know what I saw. I don't care if you believe or not.

And no I really don't know about fuel additives, fuels is a whole other division I had nothing to do with. But still I don't see how that explains what I and many other people have witnessed.

Don't know why that links dead, it worked when I posted it. Oh well...

[edit on 16-10-2004 by ANOK]

i have seen "chem trails" being sprayed with my own eyes.

ice crystals do not form below 10,000 feet on a hot summer day from jet exhaust do they?

i have witnessed the same aircraft flying perpendicular patterns all afternoon and creating artificial haze.

and there is good reason. the ozone layer is in big trouble. we have to create artificial UV blocking "clouds" to protect crops as well as people.

rich says:

"i have seen "chem trails" being sprayed with my own eyes."

I am sure you have seen something. Your interpretation of what you saw, though, may not be the same as mine.

"ice crystals do not form below 10,000 feet on a hot summer day from jet exhaust do they? "

What is a hot summer day to you and I on the ground is not necesarily hot at altitude. Mt. Everest is below the level of a lot of commercial aircraft and you won't often find hot summer dayse up there!

Furthermore. you can't tell (and neither can I) what altitude an aircraft is flying, since you don't know the size of the airplane and have no frame of reference to measure it against.

A Boeing 777 is almost three times the size of a 737, yet their outlines are very similar. A 737 at 10,000 feel looks just like a 777 at 30,000 feet.

The only way you can tell how high an airplane is is to spend ten or fifteen dollars a month for Flight Explorer (www.flightexplorer.com...), which give you real time identification of every single commercial aircraft in the skies over the United States, including its flight number, vector, departure and arrival cities and altitude.

For some reason, none of the people who believe in "chem-trails" are interested in getting Flight Explorer. I am not sure why this is; I would think that if such people really were interested in the truth and good research, they would do so.

"i have witnessed the same aircraft flying perpendicular patterns all afternoon and creating artificial haze.

I haven't. Are you saying you just sat there wor a whole afternoon and watched one plane fly back and forth? How do you know it wasn't three or four planes flying the same path? There are flight lanes between cities, you know.

"and there is good reason. the ozone layer is in big trouble. we have to create artificial UV blocking "clouds" to protect crops as well as people."

This would be a good reason, except for one thing. Since most of the world's ozone degradation is in the Southern Hemisphere, why wouldn't there be tons of planes flying over Chile and Argentina where the thinning of the Ozone Layer is really bad? They have a lot of people, and a lot of crops, and they're certainly not Third World Countries; why aren't they doing it?

OK one more post....
I know you were asking Rich but... I sat for over an hour, almost 2 (two) infact on a park bench in a major city on the west coast of the USA. It was in the middle of the afternoon, the sky was clear and it was a warm summer day, 2 yrs ago.
I watched the SAME 2 (two) aircraft flying back and forth across the sky creating a cloud of somekind.
It was hard to really tell but they looked plain white with no markings.
They were working together, that was plainly obvious, creating a very neat cheqerboard pattern that eventualy spread out forming a solid hazy cloud mass.
What that cloud was composed of I have no idea, only those who are involved in this "programme" would know that and for some reason they don't want us to know.
Maybe IF they are trying to counter global warming, they don't want us to know the situation is that bad that they need to try to do something about it. That would possibly panic the population.
The aircraft I saw were not flying a normal flight path, I have lived here long enough to regonize that.
Like I said in another post why would aircraft be at CON-trail height close to a city airport? Shouldn't they be near landing or take off altitude?

Anyone ever consider that these planes may be flying in a grid pattern taking photos for mapping.


I know that they have sats for this purpose but I would think that low flying craft would give a better res.

Originally posted by evecasino
Anyone ever consider that these planes may be flying in a grid pattern taking photos for mapping.


I know that they have sats for this purpose but I would think that low flying craft would give a better res.

Low flying aircraft would not be producing con-trails. At least not to that extent.