Why should the rich pay more taxes?

Originally posted by meticulous

Now the person that you said made 150k a year (more than likely) has some savings/stocks/bonds because he was taxed on only the first $110,100 of his wages. This would leave him with 40K in untaxed Social Security wages yearly (out of the government hands/control) to save or invest with and what type of income gets the biggest tax breaks? “INVESTMENT INCOME.” Not only does that 150k person have a tax advantage over the 50k person because of the $110,100 tax cap barrier now they can then turn around and use this untaxed money for investments to make even more money which is taxed at a lower rate than standard wages.

On the highest levels people don't earn money from work, they earn money from investments.
(That looks a lot like "RICH" welfare that the working man has to pay for.)

This tax system is a snowball that rolls uphill to the peak of the highest mountain before it melts and finally trickles down.

I'm not sure why we are arguing SS. SS system is not for rich people...they don't need a force retirement system where they put in million to get millions out at age 66. Just because one guy makes 110k per year and another guy makes a million per year, but gets SS tax on only 110k they BOTH get the same retirement return at age 66. It doesn't matter if one happens to be 100% wage and another is 10% wage.

Of course the million dollar guy has more options...he makes more money, and if he puts in 10 times more than the 110k a year guy he would still get back 10 times more SS and so he will AWAYS have more options. Also, what is your point if a guy either puts more into SS or puts it into some other retirement program?

Originally posted by The_Oracle

That is to provide a good life for you and your family.

Ok...I can agree with that to a point....now what is a fair wage? What is a fair wage for a cashier or stock person that has no skill and I teach them the few skills they need to do this job?

Does this mean EVERY job should provide a good life? Is there no responsibility on the workers to gain better skills/education i.e. better jobs that pay more to provide a good life. What is the difference between a 60k job and a 30k job? Is it the greediness to the employer?

I see you do not list skills as a requirement for wage...interesting, also why would an employer raise wages to pay off personal debt...

Ok...I'm looking for a stock person..no skill needed and it pays 10 bucks an hour...you come along fresh out of college with loans, CC cards etc and you apply for the job.. Your job is to take cans out of boxes and put them on the shelves, is 10 bucks an hour not enough for this job?

It seems you want the employer to give everything to the worker, but the worker only needs to give their time.

A person should NOT have to work 2-3 jobs, or work 80 hours per week for a fixed salary, just to make ends meet...

So what you are saying is minimum wage should be 20 to 30 bucks per hour?

Why is the person working 80 per week, what kind of jobs are they doing?

as for "stock options" -- that is no good unless the worker 'wants' to buy stock -- which is feeding the very monster iteself.

Ah, work for the beast..expect the beast to give you a good life, but have no faith, or support for the beast...
A person should want a retirement fund...right? If the company offers you stock at a lower value...you don't invest? weird...

As for 401k matches...yeah, right. What do they match? Your first 3%? Suppose you earn enough to put 50% in a 401k (say, you have two adult professionals working, but they live a modest lifestyle)...you tell me ONE employer who would match that dollar for dollar.....and I'll try not to have a stroke..

Who the hell COULD mach one for one...no one...you are smoking something on that one...My company will match 8% of a persons pay check...you saying that sucks...LOL

while the "rich" and the "Wall Street players" simply sit and push keyboard buttons or make phone calls, and their numbers just magically get bigger, with little to no effort.

Ah, the Puritan Work Ethics rearing its ugly little head. Business owners work much longer hours than their employees, so I'm not sure why your example is of a person who has NO ONE working for them...

It isn't. It keeps the working and middle classes forever running on the hamster wheel, while the rich just sit back and enjoy their mint juleps after a nice long round of golf in some cushy resort or on some private island and call it a "business conference."

So I miss your point...who is holding you down to not get rich? Who is preventing you from achieving your dreams...if you wake up 40 years from now and you're a maid still at a hotel whose fault is that? If you work as a maid then as a front desk and decide you can do all that and get a small business loan for your own motel, and then upgrade to a much nicer hotel years later...becoming successful...who fault is that?

People are going to run the treadmill their whole lives, but it is not the employers responsibility to get them off of it. When a person finally figures out whose real responsibility it is they seem to finally start to do better in life.

Who needs $2.5 billion dollars as a private citizen?

Who need 50k? We can go Governemnt housing, give every family 500 sq ft of living space, provide Government food..doesn't taste very good but it will keep you healthy...Government clothing...etc...

We live check to check and are able to save about 5%

How old are you? What are you willing to sacrifice to get ahead? What skills do you have? Very few people are born with the silver spoon in their mouths.

“Very few people are born with the silver spoon in their mouths.”
Xtrozero
blogs.wsj.com...

Bill Gates self-made? Give me a million dollars to start out with and I am sure I would become rich ( as if $1,000,000 isn’t rich) .

“Bill Gates has the best of both worlds. Not only is Bill Gates an ambitious and extremely successful entrepreneur, he also had the cushion of a million-dollar trust fund to fall back on -- just in case.”
FROM
money.howstuffworks.com...

Originally posted by wittgenstein

“Bill Gates has the best of both worlds. Not only is Bill Gates an ambitious and extremely successful entrepreneur, he also had the cushion of a million-dollar trust fund to fall back on -- just in case.”

Want to match success story with success story? I think I would come well ahead in a very short time... but hey, Bill could have snorted a million up his nose too, but he didn't and made one of the most powerful companies in the world.

Ever hear of a small business loan...

I'm so tired of people going against their own self interest because of buzz words like class warfare. Politicians know that no body likes class warfare, so that's why they use it as a shield for their bull#. When politicians like Newt Gingrich condescendingly tell people to take a bath, get job, and stop being lazy, they lose the right to cry about class warfare. It's hypocritical.

It's not class warfare to suggest taxes should be restructured. It's not class warfare to suggest billion dollar companies should stop being greedy and acting like bringing jobs back to America will make them lose their entire fortune. Sure they might lose a few million in profit per year, since they can't get away with slave labor, but they will still be able to afford their yachts and mansions, and they'd be doing a patriotic thing by helping their own damn country men. It's not class warfare to close tax loop holes that are only available to the extremely wealthy.

Not getting your way does not equal class warfare, even though some petty people use the buzz word to their advantage. .

I'd say citizens united is class warfare. Why are CEO's allowed to buy our elections with unlimited spending, while the rest of us are limited by law? Our country is becoming more of a plutocracy and people want to sit here complaining about class warfare over restructured taxes? Get real! If there is class warfare they are playing with nukes, while we use sling shots. The cards have been stacked in their favor, just because somebody is good at playing victim doesn't mean they are the victim.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I'm not sure why we are arguing SS.

Because it is still a form of TAX on the people.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
SS system is not for rich people...

So you just admitted that the TAX system is NOT for rich people.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Of course the million dollar guy has more options...he makes more money, and if he puts in 10 times more than the 110k a year guy he would still get back 10 times more SS and so he will AWAYS have more options. Also, what is your point if a guy either puts more into SS or puts it into some other retirement program?

The point was that the government has full control of all the money put into that system. The Rich do not contribute anything over 110k and get to keep the government from controlling that extra untaxed money.

Take a look at it again a different way and say both men die before retirement age.

The lower wage person had no savings because he was TAXED on 100% of his wages and the government just kept everything he paid in because he did not reach retirement age before death so there is nothing left for his heirs.

When the rich person dies before retirement age the government also keeps everything he paid in to the system but don't forget about that 110k cap loophole. That loophole just allowed this rich man to bypass the government from keeping 100% because he never paid that TAX on 100% of his income (like the lower wage man) so he still has money that was out of control of the government to pass on to his heirs.


*Just Remember* You have No Property Rights to your Social Security taxes or benefits, your children cannot inherit your money and the government keeps it all.

So why was it fair that they get to opt out of the system at $110,100?

Originally posted by neoholographic
The real question should be, why don't the middle class and the poor pay less in taxes?

This should be the real question, but class warfare and class envy seeks to blame the rich.

Many rich people are smart with their money. Instead of wasting and spending money on depreciating assets, they invest their money into things that can appreciate like stocks and real estate. In some cases they pay no taxes and they shouldn't pay any. Let me show you three ways the rich pay less in taxes.

1. Own a Corporation - There's plenty of tax benefits that can be derived from starting a Corporation. It's easy to start a Corporation or LLC. This is a favorite of liberals in Hollywood that claim they love big Government.

Every actor or singer will have a production company even if they don't produce anything. This allows them to get paid and run the money through a Corporation. Corporations don't pay taxes upfront like earned income. This allows them to re-invest in their business or maybe do some angel investing and invest in the next You Tube.

Actors and Singers use it to avoid paying taxes and this is why so many of them get into tax trouble. You get paid 5 million for a movie and you just run it through your Corporation so you don't have to pay taxes in the same way as earned income where the taxes are taken out of your paycheck before you get paid.

2. Investments - Many of the rich or people well off invest. When these investments payoff, they just pay a capital gains tax. This is why the Warren Buffet Secretary story was a big lie. Buffet's Secretary made a half a million dollars a year and lives good. They acted as though she was Bob Cratchit.

Buffet's Secretary paid money on earned income while Buffet paid a Capital Gains tax. If Buffet's Secretary were to invest in stocks or real estate and she made a profit, she would pay Capital Gains on that profit. If Buffet wanted to give the Government more money, he could have wrote the Treasury a check or paid himself a big salary that would be taxed as earned income.

People also talk about people investing overseas. They should invest overseas if they see an emerging market that will give them a nice return. Many Democrats invest overseas.

3. Debt Equity - This means you will pay ZERO TAXES and you shouldn't.

Say you own 10 Houses and an Apartment Building. You have made smart investments with your money and now you have $500,000 in equity. The Government can't tax equity because it's not earned income and it's not capital gains unless you sale the properties.

Now you go to the bank and take out a loan against the equity you have in the properties. Well, the Government can't tax borrowed money. So you don't pay earned income or capital gains tax and you're living tax free. Again, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just being a smart investor.

If you invested in Google early on, you can just borrow against those shares instead of selling them and paying a Capital Gains tax. If you bought a painting in 1985 for $500,000 and now it's worth 5 million, you can borrow against the 4.5 million of equity using the painting as collateral for the loan.

At the end of the day, the question should be how can the poor and the middle class keep more of their money instead of class warfare. The way you can accomplish this is through a national sales tax.

If a person makes $1,000 at work then they take home a paycheck for $1,000. This way people can manage their money better. This is how many people build wealth. Sadly, Democrats make sure that everyone is a victim and without them taking your money and wasting and spending it, you couldn't survive.

Are there crooks? Of course. You get crooks in all walks of life but most people who are well off or rich are just smart when it comes to investments.

Can you blame Steve Jobs (R.I.P.) for being rich because people line up around the world to buy iPhones and iPads?

Can you blame Mark Cuban for being rich because Yahoo acquired Broadcast.com for 5.9 billion?

This class warfare nonsense needs to stop.

The US national debt and deficit is enormous. Tax cuts are right now killing USA.
The rich need to pay much higher taxes. Wealth tax and death tax be brought back. It's a math problem. Something Republicans and Democrats alike have a problem with. (Republicans having the biggest issues.) Nothing about blame.
After this you are still going to have to cut into social security. And there are many who are barely coping right now.

Also the nature of money changes. It was meant as a tool for trade (moving around). Not as tool to get what others work for. Stocksholders are in essence parasites. The money they make comes from others labour. So the money becomes something that in this current system just yield more profit.
Too much money invested in stocks and real estate means less money in consumer rotation and causes economic stagnation. I don't know how to make the rich elite acknowledge this. It's not in their short term interest. But in a democracy it isn't necessary for them to understand.
There are only so many moochers a country can handle. What happens when 90% are shareholders and expect to get paid just because they have money? How could the 10% that do actual work handle that?
The corporation is a very destructive idea. And it needs to go.
Much is wrong with this. And it won't work for long.
There's also social unrest as a result of this system. (A remnant from feudal times when all form of capital was handed down from father to son. We have now gotten rid of the idea that political capital can be transfered in such a way. Why not also financial capital? Or all the other forms of capital?)

And demanding Mark Cuban pay tax on those 5.9 billion is not blame. It's necessary for society.

If it wasn’t for the poor the rich would have to eat their money.

reply to post by Xtrozero

How old are you? What are you willing to sacrifice to get ahead? What skills do you have? Very few people are born with the silver spoon in their mouths.

Ahem. Here I thought we were having a friendly discussion.

Of course skills matter. I am over 50 years old, with an advanced degree in the Behavioral and Mental Health, am bilingual Spanish/English, know how to design/sew clothing, am an excellent cook, a gardener, was a child-care provider for many years, do minor to medium home DIY stuff, know quite a lot about basic construction and maintenance, and some other skills...

I live in a mixed working-class neighborhood, an 73-year old home, drove an old Honda (until it recently died), walk whenever I can, rarely eat out or go to the movies, NEVER go out clubbing or "shopping", and buy clothes second hand. My furniture is all second-hand or flea market stuff -- I choose to live this way rather than keeping up with the Joneses in the beige suburbs...

that said, my home is comfortable, and we get by. My husband saves as much as he can. I stayed at home with my two kids until they were school age, never put them in day-care (had a home child care business myself for those years)...

Sorry if I've rubbed you the wrong way. I don't ask for handouts.

The people who are working 80 hours are the 20s and 30s who are in middle management, on salaries, and expected to be on-call and stay late....so they can get ahead.

I'd take a $10/hour stocking job. But no one will even give me an interview -- I'm too old, and overqualified. It sucks.

Originally posted by wittgenstein
“Very few people are born with the silver spoon in their mouths.”
Xtrozero
blogs.wsj.com...

Bill Gates self-made? Give me a million dollars to start out with and I am sure I would become rich ( as if $1,000,000 isn’t rich) .

“Bill Gates has the best of both worlds. Not only is Bill Gates an ambitious and extremely successful entrepreneur, he also had the cushion of a million-dollar trust fund to fall back on -- just in case.”
FROM
money.howstuffworks.com...

“Want to match success story with success story? I think I would come well ahead in a very short time... but hey, Bill could have snorted a million up his nose too, but he didn't and made one of the most powerful companies in the world.
Ever hear of a small business loan...”
Xtrozero
That makes no sense in the context of a response to my post.

reply to post by neoholographic


This is going to be an issue that will be remembered once the productive working class falls into the welfare state that Obama has created, after all somebody have to pay so the welfare state get their benefits right?

Is not going to be the middle productive class as they are a dying breed, so let it be the rich.

marg6043

www.politifact.com...


my.firedoglake.com...

reply to post by wittgenstein


Trust me here in the south, In Ga is people that are salivating under the false pretenses that Obama is going to pay for their mortgage and their health care and is all free.

Yes, when Obama care was passed many have the impression that they will be receiving checks in the mail for free.



We know better, is all a lie, the welfare state has grown incredibly in the last 4 years and is about to collapse when Obamacare comes into effect, as you need enough taxable income to keep the welfare state.

Thanks for the link.

“We know better, is all a lie, the welfare state has grown incredibly in the last 4 years”

marg6043
Nope! It has shrunk!
I’m sure the sun looks like it revolves around the earth. But being informed helps us realize that what we think is true is not.
www.projectcensored.org...
my.firedoglake.com...

Obama is what we used to call a Republican (Eisenhower, Nixon, etc). All I am saying is lets get back to en.wikipedia.org... I did not like the guy but at least that would be an improvement!!!
www.dailykos.com...

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
I do grow weary of all this talk about envying the rich.

My envy of many of the rich is the same as my "envy" of the people who break in line, cheat on their taxes, and game the welfare system. I'm not jealous of their money, power, and status: I'm mad that cheaters, liars, and thieves are being allowed to prosper.

Do you have court irrefutable proof that a majority of rich people got that way through illegal or immoral means. Names, dates, events, who, what where, why, when. If not it's speculation based on media hype capitalizing on the DNA engrained natural thirst after the shiney bauble, the "racoon effect". Envy is natural and I don't understand why we just can't admit who and what we are.

reply to post by wittgenstein


It has grown, here in the south we are one of the poorest city in the state, we have lost all major manufactures in the las ten years, even my husband a retired marine lost his well pay job in the last two months and for the first time in his life he is collecting unemployment and he is not alone over hundreds of contractors in the state are now unemployed and on state benefits.

See is when the crap hit the ceiling and and falls in the middle of your nice home, that's when you get to understand how bad this nation is and how ugly reality is, we never qualified before for anything as my husband has always been a high income earner now we are in the same category as welfare recipient.

The welfare state is growing and is growing beyond many can even imagine unless its affecting them directly..

tkwasny
First of all I will ignore your en.wikipedia.org... s. ( You are not as crafty / subtle as you think) For example a typical argument of yours would be,
1. Manson is a liar.
2. Manson said that 1+1=2
3. Therefore 1+1 does not = 2.
Obviously a fallacy.
In simple terms, attack the argument not the person!

As for evidence ( and no I am not saying that ALL the rich are criminals, accusing me of that is an example of en.wikipedia.org... ) just look at our current economic crisis! It was caused by an unethical Wall Street and the banks.

“It has grown, here in the south we are one of the poorest city in the state, we have lost all major manufactures in the las ten years, even my husband a retired marine lost his well pay job in the last two months and for the first time in his life he is collecting unemployment and he is not alone over hundreds of contractors in the state are now unemployed and on state benefits.”
marg6043
So your argument is that social spending has increased and your evidence is that your husband collects unemployment (that the republicans want to cut)? *
Actually, spending on social programs has been proven to have decreased in the last 4 years. However, I apologize for being so abstract. Look around you! Haven’t you noticed that services have been being cut?

*
www.youtube.com...