Why should the rich pay more taxes?

Originally posted by schuyler
The rich ALREADY pay the taxes. The top 1% pay over a third of the taxes. The top 50% pay about 96% of the taxes. The bottom 50% pay a little over 3% of the taxes with 43 million returns paying NOTHING at all. Want to know why you don't have a job? Because the dollar that would have been invested, saved, or spent, all options that put money into the economy, went to the government instead.

100%: 139,960,580 returns paid taxes of $1,031,512mil for 100% AGI for 100% of taxes
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.

AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form:

The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes

Now let’s put that in perspective.

The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 5% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $159,619.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.

And people wonder why America is in the middle of an economic collapse? It's not the individual taxpayer that is the problem, it's these faceless multinational corporations that use taxpayer money to line the pockets of their shareholders and get incentives to ship all of our jobs overseas.

The real problems will never be fixed because there is always a scapegoat, right?

Originally posted by TheCoolKids
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Just because you "work hard" does not entitle you to First World middle class status. Success in the economy is on working smart not hard. The average burger flipper is paid more than 99% of people that ever lived, and probably more than a majority of the living population.

There really are not poor people in this country, read the studies of Robert Rector.

Your right
What entitles me (as a human species) is conquest. By rule or blood I will have what I desire. This is how society always lived, and will always live.
History books are littered with examples of revolution. When the wealth disparity between the haves and have nots grow to such an extent that the have nots lose hope, revolution occurs, and with that, the haves often find themselves strung up.

Poor, rich, it is a mindset overall. Your right, a person in the US being dirt poor lives like a middle class person in slovenia or some such, but people compare with their environment, not the world as a whole.

As a first world country, the west in general will compare itself to the kardashians than some mud hut in africa..and human nature will indeed take over when a psychological tipping point hits.

I wonder if global philosophical considerations were ever debated in front of a lynch mob.

Anyhow, in todays society, the smart worker is becoming replaced by the foreign smart worker. What is needed is good laws..laws that make it more economical for the corporation to hire the local smart person than the foreign smart person. The argument you make is pre-globalization.

reply to post by neoholographic


"Why should the rich pay more taxes?" Because they are rich and they can afford to.

The love of money, power, and greed are just too prevalent in this world.

I am curious...are you rich?

Originally posted by buster2010
Why is it when people want to tax the wealth it's class warfare?

Why is it when people scream that they want those who make more to pay a larger percent in taxes, they don't see the truth of the situation .. that they are just STEALING from those who make more simply because those people make more?

Everyone should pay a flat tax rate. THAT is the only 'pay your fair share' that is honest and fair. Taxing people at higher percentages simply because they make more is STEALING. It's class warfare. That's simply the truth of it.

Originally posted by CaticusMaximus

Originally posted by neoholographic
The real question should be...

... how 99.999% of US citizens have been duped into paying an unapportioned federal/state income tax (only businesses must pay unapportioned tax), and how we can spread awareness about this about this deceit and reveal its absurdity as nothing more than a tribute to a tyrant who threatens you with theft of property/freedom if you fail to pay that tribute.

Why should the rich pay more taxes? Not a relevant question.

More relevant: Why should ANYONE be paying taxes?

Out of six pages of posts, one person get it. It's classic TPTB divide and conquer strategy. Tell the poor that the rich people aren't paying enough, they can afford to have more taken from them. Tell the rich that those lazy poor people are sponging off of them. But never address the subject of why the Federal government needs to take so much to begin with. Talk about saving millions or billions by cutting programs to help people, but ignore the trillions spent to kill people half a world away, or the trillions spent on black budget projects we're not allowed to know about.

I think this country could use another tax form. Yeah, we don't have enough tax forms Start by taxing everyone a straight 10%, no matter the income, no deducitons, credits, etc. Then have an optional tax form that would allow you to specify where your tax dollars go. You could specify 25% of the tax you pay to go towards defense, for example. If you support Planned Parenthood or government funded abortions, you could allocate a percentage to that. I would specify a percentage of my taxes to go towards helping disabled veterans because I think our current system is a national disgrace. If enough people care about our crumbling infrastructure, they would allocate the money to repair it. Research in green energy technologies might be an area where you'd like to see your tax dollars go. Whatever you choose. It would certainly be a better system than having multinational war profiteers bribe Congress to get our tax dollars, and it would limit the government's ability to spend more than they take in.

Just because someone has more than I think they need does not give me the right to take it from them. Otherwise I could quit working and just rob politicians for what I want.

Originally posted by meticulous

The 2012 MAXIMUM taxable earnings for the Social Security caps is $110,100. Any person that makes $110,100 pays in the exact same amount in taxes to Social Security as someone making over $1,000,000+.
Anything made over that first $110,100 is tax free for the rich because the current tax rate does NOT scale along with the higher income because of the cap.

REAL WORLD: Most low to middle income families don’t even clear $110,100 in wages a year. They will end up paying that tax on 100% of their income whereas the people that make over $110,100 scale less and less tax % with the more money they make.

I don't understand your point...

Are you saying there should not be a cap and the richer you are the more you pay into it? Does this mean the more you pay into it then the bigger your SS check will be when you retire. REAL WORLD is that the SS system is really for those who make under 110,000. I wish I had the choice to pay into that retirement system, but I didn't even though I never wanted to, but it is a retirement system that is totally different than typical Taxes.

With SS geared for the lower tax brackets then a man at 66 who made 50k would get an SS of 45% of his earnings, and a man who made 150k would get 20% of his earnings in SS at age 66.

Another thing... I will never use Medicare too, but I paid into it my whole life. Should we also raise this up so more people at the top should pay more into it and will never use it?

I really don't understand this idea of pushing everything off on the top 6% (over 105k in earnings).

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Why should the rich pay more taxes?

Answer - they shouldn't have to. Not at all.

- EVERYONE should pay the same percentage no matter how much or little they make. That's the only 'fair tax' .. the only way that everyone will be 'paying their fair share'.

- Looting from those who have earned more is nothing more than stealing. It's jealousy in the extreme and, saying that it's okay to rob successful people simply because they are more successful is using excuses for theft because of that jealousy.

- Get spending under control and no one would have to pay nearly as much as they do now in taxes. Reign in government handouts .. entitlements .. union payoffs .. bailouts .. etc etc etc ...

- People deserve to keep what they earn. If they earn more .. it's THEIRS. You have no right to it.

- This 'soak the rich' bull is nothing more than class warfare .. it's looting .. it's stealing ... it's WRONG.

Thats the truth. Something that cheerleaders in class warfare don't like to face.

Exactly!

It's sad to see so much class envy and class warfare.

You don't have to be rich to do any of the things that I mentioned in the OP.

It's easy to start an LLC or a Corporation. It's easy to invest and grow your money. It's easy to build debt equity. It takes hard work, but you don't have to be part of the "evil rich" to do these things.

I have a cousin whose rich but for over 20 years he worked in Construction. He would save $1,000 a month for 10 years. He used that money to get into the Mortgage Business and invest in Real Estate.

I guess when he worked in Construction, he was okay and a hard worker but now he's rich, he's evil. This is a sickening mentality of class warfare and class envy. Nobody can work hard and be successful. Everyone that's well off or rich must have cheated someone.

This is what the crooked Politicians want you to do. Don't look at the close to 16 trillion that they have borrowed and spent. Don't look at the trillions they have spent on poverty and education and these things are still are horrid. Ride through a poor neighborhood and you see nothing but hopelessness and despair.

The rich shouldn't pay more in taxes because nobody should have to pay more in taxes. This Government waste and spends money and we should give them more to waste and spend?

Also, a lot of people waste and spend the money they make on depreciating assets that become worthless as soon as they buy them. So the truth is, many people are lazy. They want things given to them instead of working for it.

I have a friend that owns a successful Barber Shop and he makes good money. At first, he worked in little Convenient Stores and he would cut hair in his Mom's basement. He got tired of making 7 dollars and hour and living with his mother, so he quit his job, got his Barber license and after years of hard work, he know has his own house, a successful Barber Shop and he drives an Escalade while investing a portion of the money he makes in long term investments.

I have another friend that use to complain about work everytime I saw him. He hated work but the job paid him good money. I recently saw him and he was smiling from ear to ear. He know has his own cleaning service. He bought a cleaning service franchise and now he has contracts all over the city cleaning building and restaurants. He just bought a house, has a new baby and he got married. He says he know has managers for different projects and he just oversees everything which gives him a lot of free time.

I say these things because the class warfare, class envy stuff is just nonsense. A lot of times the problem starts with people who are just lazy. If you would blame yourself for most of your problems and say you're the cause of those problems, on the flip side you can be the cause of your success. That's a true message of Hope and Change not this nonsense about the evil rich or paying your "fair share."

What is the "fair share?" This is just more nonsense. Who decides the fair share? Obama, Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi? Nobody will ever pay enough to pay their fair share and feed the greed of these crooked Politicians in Washington.

I believe in a single flat tax rate without any loopholes for everyone.

reply to post by neoholographic


Nicely done and spot on.

Why is it OK for one group in society to vote to support their own self-interest in the form of more government handouts, expansion of programs that have destroyed the financial health of the country and yet it is not OK for the rich to support policies that support their own self interests?

The thing that is growing faster than the national debt in this country is the number of professional victims.

Originally posted by gostr
I think the question is,

why does the single mother making $26,000 a year have to pay $2,000 dollars in taxes, while the person making $3,000,000.00 only has to pay $2,000 in taxes?

explain that to me and i'll agree the rich shouldnt have to pay more in taxes.

Not sure your point with these numbers....

Single mother with one child pays 1003 dollars in taxes, but she also gets 3050 EIC, 1500 in food stamps, 1000 child tax credit for just a quick look...there could be more.

So we have 1003 dollars paid to the Government and 5500 dollars paid back from the Government.

Now explain to me how this person who made 3 million in a year paid 2000 dollars in federal taxes?

To do that they were probably donating to charity, investing in local and state government bonds or making most of their money overseas.

A couple who makes 3 million and donates 1.5 million to charity will pay no income tax. Money made overseas that is already taxed by some other country is not double taxed by the US, and interest on Government Bonds are not taxed.

So the non-spin picture here is the single mother not only paid no income tax, but actually made money from the Government, and the rich guy still dumped a huge percent of his earnings into some kind of tax and/or charity and/or supported the Government with buying bonds.... most likely 30% or more of his money is paid out still...just not in Fed Income Tax.

Originally posted by caladonea

"Why should the rich pay more taxes?" Because they are rich and they can afford to.

The love of money, power, and greed are just too prevalent in this world.

I am curious...are you rich?

Why should "they can afford to" ever be the reason to pay more taxes? BTW what is rich..Obama says it is 250k or more...is that rich? How about 50k? That is rich in much of the world. My point is "rich" is a slippery slope and one day you might be labeled rich even though you do not make a single penny more.
It also seems that there is a growing morality issue here in people are now saying that there is a upper limit of how much a person should make to be considered morality correct, and anything over that they should be forced to put it back into society, but they do.... They pay charity in many cases and that offsets their fed income tax by a good amount.

I can tell you that the one true down side to a flat tax is it just might kill charities....

If I made 10 million and I had a choice of donating 5 million to charities and pay zero fed income tax, or just pay 3 million in taxes I just might do the charity since I can pick and choose what my money does, but then I would be the evil rich.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


the only problem i see with the flat rate tax is that the poor and low middle class will feel it more and be affected more than the rich.The flat tax still benifits the rich in my opinion.Example lets make the tax 25% so someone making 30k would pay 7500 and they would feel that where as someone making 500k would pay 125k and not feel it as much plus the fact that there tax rate would have dropped from 36% to 25%.I hope this makes sense

reply to post by SaturnFX


Which taxes are we talking about? If we are talking about Federal Income Tax, I would dearly love to see anyone prove that a single penny of it goes to anything other than paying against the interest to the FED for money loaned to the U.S. treasury!

reply to post by neoholographic


S&F OP.

The most obvious proof that the class warfare argument is a farce is the fact that the most vocal proponents of this agenda are the biggest abusers of the system….Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al have all benefited from shady deals. How does a person go to Washington making under $200,000 a year and leave with millions in the bank? This whole thing is nothing but a ploy to get votes; nothing will be done to close these loopholes or end the corruption.

Where are Harry Reid’s tax returns??

Originally posted by othello

the only problem i see with the flat rate tax is that the poor and low middle class will feel it more and be affected more than the rich.The flat tax still benifits the rich in my opinion.Example lets make the tax 25% so someone making 30k would pay 7500 and they would feel that where as someone making 500k would pay 125k and not feel it as much plus the fact that there tax rate would have dropped from 36% to 25%.I hope this makes sense

I think a fair tax or even a varied flat tax would work, and the percentages needed would be much lower than most think. Have a poverty line of no tax, poor pay around 3%, middle pay 7% and upper pay 12%... all flat for their group.

Oh...BTW what if the 500k person actually needed 375K to maintain his life style...what do you all say to that? A big house a few nice cars, a boat, savings etc, he likes 25 year old scotch and good cigars all of this can easily eat up 375K per year....

The elite create nothing. They simply bet on our creativity and work. They should have a bus full of poor and middle class ( and even upper middle class) workers and send them to the super rich communities and teach them the value of work. I have nothing against gambling ( stock market, capital gains) but it should be taxed at at least at the same rate as those that actually work. and create value. The work ethic is better for the country then the gambling ethic.
By rewarding gambling more then work and creativity, we are sending a message that gambling is more ethical then work.

Originally posted by wittgenstein
I have nothing against gambling ( stock market, capital gains) but it should be taxed at at least at the same rate as those that actually work. and create value. The work ethic is better for the country then the gambling ethic.

So lets say you save up 100k of your hard earn money and you decide to play the stock market. Since we both agree it is a gamble you have a chance to have 50k or 150k at the end of the year. 15% tax on the 50k made might be worth it even with some years you lose money...now 30% tax or more and I would most likely not risk the investment and look for some place else to use my money.

reply to post by neoholographic


maybe because the current system is dumb and creating mass hungers and war.

As I said, I have nothing against gambling. Sure, play the market. I’m just saying you should pay at least the same % in taxes as one that worked for that money.


“Throughout almost the entire history of the United States income tax, the tax rate on capital gains has been lower than that on ordinary income. Today, the top rate is 15 percent for capital gains and 35 percent for ordinary income.”
FROM
www.nytimes.com...
Note, that the above site is pro capital gains ( not a leftist Socialist site) and yet even it admits that,
“Critics of current law think it is unfair that these private equity partners are taxed at capital gains rates, whereas other high-income individuals like doctors and lawyers pay the much higher tax rates for ordinary income. It is a reasonable point, and some reform may well be appropriate.”

PS: Do you think that winnings at Vegas should be taxed?

Originally posted by neoholographic

I'll answer with another question, that is: Why do people want more money then they need? When is enough exactly?