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Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

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posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jude11
 


Don't you find it disingenuous to judge 20th century actions with a 21st century mindset

Yes, nukes are bad. If we're to judge the actions ofthe past with the foresight of the future then all our actions are suspect.


We only learn from our history my friend.

And it has the nasty habit of repeating itself. That is the real problem.

Peace




posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mideast
 


How about I just ask our guys at Pearl Harbor if they liked being bombed?




So since a few thousand of your guys died in Pearl Harbour, did you have the right to launch an attack on Hiroshima which would mostly kill innocent civilians? I mean, the US had a casus belli on Japan at that time, but why didn't they attack Japanese military bases? Why end up nuking a whole city?
edit on 19-8-2012 by RimDaas because: Text came into the quote



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by jude11

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mideast
 


How about I just ask our guys at Pearl Harbor if they liked being bombed?


Why not ask what they would really feel if they knew it was coming like their own Govt. did?

How would they feel then?


I don't like FDR anyway and all his socialist programs. This is a matter of globalist elite leaders not the American people.
I can separate the American people from these treasonous globalists if that is what you are getting at. But you won't find me bashing America over it. It is a case of wolves among the sheep, tares among the wheat.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by jude11
 


At least the people of Nagasaki were warned and there is speculation that the citizens of Hiroshima were warned also... though I personally do not feel that Hiroshima did get a flyer drop.

But, again... this is discussing .0033% of the casualties of WWII. A horrible event that brought the deadliest war in history to an end.

~Heff

edit on 8/19/12 by Hefficide because: typos R us



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:03 AM
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Originally posted by jude11

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jude11
 


Don't you find it disingenuous to judge 20th century actions with a 21st century mindset

Yes, nukes are bad. If we're to judge the actions ofthe past with the foresight of the future then all our actions are suspect.


We only learn from our history my friend.

And it has the nasty habit of repeating itself. That is the real problem.

Peace


Oh I agree. We have learned from history in terms of nukes. We should always learn. But to judge?



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by RimDaas
 


Because it was felt to be more effective and less costly in life than an invasion of Japan would have been.


A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7-4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.[


~Heff



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:05 AM
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Lets just stick to the discussion, going back to WW2 is not really bringing anything new here, just an excuse to sling mud.

I think it's worth asking if sanctions are an act of war? If so then the west has already started it's war against Iran, not to mention the Cyber warfare and the assassination of Iranian scientists.

I would also argue the war in Syria is relevant to the discussion, as it seems to me Israel would like to see the downfall of Syria, one of Iran's remaining allies in the region. Iran must feel like it is next on the hitlist. This is a confusing situation for me as I don't understand why Israel would support the FSA in Syria, knowing it is made up of hard core Sunni Islamist extremists.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by jude11

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jude11
 


Don't you find it disingenuous to judge 20th century actions with a 21st century mindset

Yes, nukes are bad. If we're to judge the actions ofthe past with the foresight of the future then all our actions are suspect.


We only learn from our history my friend.

And it has the nasty habit of repeating itself. That is the real problem.

Peace


Oh I agree. We have learned from history in terms of nukes. We should always learn. But to judge?


How can we not judge? It's the only way we learn what was right and wrong. If we don't judge ourselves and come up honest, we will always repeat our mistakes.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by jude11

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mideast
 


How about I just ask our guys at Pearl Harbor if they liked being bombed?


Why not ask what they would really feel if they knew it was coming like their own Govt. did?

How would they feel then?


I don't like FDR anyway and all his socialist programs. This is a matter of globalist elite leaders not the American people.
I can separate the American people from these treasonous globalists if that is what you are getting at. But you won't find me bashing America over it. It is a case of wolves among the sheep, tares among the wheat.


Well, we're almost at an agreement here.

I have to put it another way tho. I won't bash Americans, only what America has become. And for that I know that many great Americans had no hand in the direction.

We good?

Peace



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:16 AM
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reply to post by jude11
 


I think this is an important aspect of the thread to discuss, please forgive me woodwardjr.

We have learned, Americans have learned through use of nuclear weapons the devastating impact that it has on people. The targets, and the people at home. America is the sole country to have used nuclear weapons in a war scenario, so I feel that it uniquely qualifies them to it's devastating impact. If there were to be any other to judge the impact, it would be Japan.

Now I may be wrong, but I don't see either country endorsing the developing of nukes by Iran.

So that should say something to the rest of the world.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by RimDaas

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mideast
 


How about I just ask our guys at Pearl Harbor if they liked being bombed?


So since a few thousand of your guys died in Pearl Harbour, did you have the right to launch an attack on Hiroshima which would mostly kill innocent civilians? I mean, the US had a casus belli on Japan at that time, but why didn't they attack Japanese military bases? Why end up nuking a whole city?




It was more complicated than that. Don't forget this was a World War. It wasn't just Japan and the US. Germany had invaded Russia. Also there was a lot of action in the South Pacific. The way I understand it is a lot of Americans did not want to get in the war. The Conspiracy theory is that FDR allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor as a pretext for getting us into the war.
If you would like to get a perspective of the overall war involving many countries and different theatres, read historical accounts.


It was the bloodiest, deadliest war the world had ever seen. More than 38 million people died, many of them innocent civilians. It also was the most destructive war in history. Fighting raged in many parts of the world. More than 50 nations took part in the war, which changed the world forever.
For Americans, World War II had a clear-cut purpose. People knew why they were fighting: to defeat tyranny. Most of Europe had been conquered by Nazi Germany, which was under the iron grip of dictator Adolf Hitler. The war in Europe began with Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939. Wherever the Nazis went, they waged a campaign of terror, mainly against Jews, but also against other minorities.
In Asia and the Pacific, Japanese armies invaded country after country, island after island. On December 7, 1941, Japanese planes bombed Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The next day, the U.S. Congress declared war, taking the U.S. into World War II.

www.scholastic.com...


World War II was primarily fought between two large alliances. The Axis Powers were a group of countries led by Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan, and are considered the aggressors of the conflict. The Allies, led by the United Kingdom and, until its defeat, France, were joined in the European theatre by the Soviet Union in June 1941 and by the United States in December 1941. In the Asia-Pacific theatre, the Allies were led by the Republic of China from the invasion of China by Japan in 1937 and then joined by the United States in 1941 after the attack on Pearl Harbour.


While the European war did not officially start until the 1939 invasion of Poland by Germany and the Soviet Union, the war began much earlier in Asia and Africa with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1936 and the Japanese invasion of China in 1937. Subsequently, with the war spreading to Europe and the Pacific Ocean, China, with one-third of the country under occupation, dispatched its forces to help the British defend India against Japan and recapture Burma (now Myanmar) in 1944.


Following the Japanese Pearl Harbour attack in 1941, the United States formally entered the war, committing itself to assisting the Allies in both theatres of war. The United States had been a major contributor of resources and production for the war effort prior to the attack on Pearl Harbour, shipping material to most of the Allies to assist their forces, but after the Japanese attack, the United States began contributing its own forces to combat.


A much larger number of countries joined the Allies during the war than joined the Axis. Not only did the countries attacked by the Axis join, but later in the war, many smaller countries not directly involved in the war joined the Allies to ensure their own security as well as to gain the support of the Allies economically and militarily during and after the war.

www.century-of-flight.net...

So for whatever it is worth, the war was being fought on many fronts involving many countries. That is after all why they called it a World War.
The bomb did stop the Japanese and helped to end the rest of the World war as well as did D Day invasaion of Normandy.
edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)
edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


It's taking another human being's life I have a problem with.

Then multiply that by a few million.

Then add the only reasons we're doing it are fear, greed, or the need to control.

It just sickens me.

the people behind the west now are of the same agenda as the ones who were behind ww2, hitler was blamed but less than 100 years later and it's all starting again.

Shame on us all.
edit on 19-8-2012 by Beavers because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:22 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by mideast
 


Your country has never had war? It has hands free of blood? ~sigh~

I'm not able to take the time to link to this so you'll have to do some of your own work here... The two atomic bombs dropped on Japan took about 199,000 lives and stopped a war that had already killed 60,000,000 people. Cherry picking 199,000 of the dead to single out seems a bit disingenuous to me.

~Heff


Yeah , your right.

To win the war.



To turn Japan into a technology slave with no military ability.

To start a new age of Imperialism.

Invade any country USG wants.

To turn other nations into slaves.

Japan = Technology slave

China = Work slaves

Middle eastern countries = Energy slaves

You don't have to defend these actions unless you ignore the truth and you are govt.
edit on 19-8-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:24 AM
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reply to post by mideast
 


Spot on!
edit on 19-8-2012 by Beavers because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jude11
 


I think this is an important aspect of the thread to discuss, please forgive me woodwardjr.

We have learned, Americans have learned through use of nuclear weapons the devastating impact that it has on people. The targets, and the people at home. America is the sole country to have used nuclear weapons in a war scenario, so I feel that it uniquely qualifies them to it's devastating impact. If there were to be any other to judge the impact, it would be Japan.

Now I may be wrong, but I don't see either country endorsing the developing of nukes by Iran.

So that should say something to the rest of the world.


Well, it's still only the Western powers by far that claim Iran is developing nukes and not power.

Secondly, it is still a dangerous precedent that anyone has the right to endorse what another Nation can do within its own borders without proof of an aggressive stance.

Again, no proof. Only media spin.

Peace



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:27 AM
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reply to post by mideast
 


I source my information so that nobody can refer to it as opinion or empty speculation. There's a reason for that.

And for the record... China benefits from the US-China relationship just as much, or more, than the US does.

It's fun speculation... but seriously? Japan are our technology slaves??? That is actually funny to me and I bet the folks at Sony would laugh as well.

~Heff

ETA... I take the time to educate myself so that I know the truth. I don't just run with the herd and take whatever position emotionally appeals to me.

Oh and it's naughty to suggest people on ATS work for the government. In fact it's against the rules. Just a friendly reminder.
edit on 8/19/12 by Hefficide because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by jude11

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jude11
 


I think this is an important aspect of the thread to discuss, please forgive me woodwardjr.

We have learned, Americans have learned through use of nuclear weapons the devastating impact that it has on people. The targets, and the people at home. America is the sole country to have used nuclear weapons in a war scenario, so I feel that it uniquely qualifies them to it's devastating impact. If there were to be any other to judge the impact, it would be Japan.

Now I may be wrong, but I don't see either country endorsing the developing of nukes by Iran.

So that should say something to the rest of the world.


Well, it's still only the Western powers by far that claim Iran is developing nukes and not power.

Secondly, it is still a dangerous precedent that anyone has the right to endorse what another Nation can do within its own borders without proof of an aggressive stance.

Again, no proof. Only media spin.

Peace


Hasn't Iran alluded to the fact that it is interested in deveoping nuclear weapons?


Iran is now telling the world that in order to confront aggression from America and Israel, it must have nuclear weapons.

news.yahoo.com...



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by mideast
 


Your country has never had war? It has hands free of blood? ~sigh~

I'm not able to take the time to link to this so you'll have to do some of your own work here... The two atomic bombs dropped on Japan took about 199,000 lives and stopped a war that had already killed 60,000,000 people. Cherry picking 199,000 of the dead to single out seems a bit disingenuous to me.

~Heff


Yeah , your right.

To win the war.



To turn Japan into a technology slave with no military ability.

To start a new age of Imperialism.

Invade any country USG wants.

To turn other nations into slaves.

Japan = Technology slave

China = Work slaves

Middle eastern countries = Energy slaves

You don't have to defend these actions unless you ignore the truth and you are govt.
edit on 19-8-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)


Is this your justifiation for war?



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:30 AM
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reply to post by jude11
 


ok I can run with that. I agree to peace and harmony.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by mideast
 


It's fun speculation... but seriously? Japan are our technology slaves??? That is actually funny to me and I bet the folks at Sony would laugh as well.

~Heff


Yes , they are Lions with no tooth.

And they build the Robots you go to Mars with.

Despite their little country , they are always on the edge of technology.

And it USG which tells them what to do and what not to do.

They are slave because they work they and night.

But they don't know who they are working for.



Oh and it's naughty to suggest people on ATS work for the government. In fact it's against the rules. Just a friendly reminder.


I used the word "unless". So , it was not an accusation.
edit on 19-8-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)





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