Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

reply to post by bjarneorn

The Main Reason the U.S. made the Mistake of supporting a Dictator...the Shah of Iran...was U.S. War Planners way of countering a Planned and proven plan with the release of the Soviets intent by Yeltsin's release of the actual plans of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan to be followed by a Soviet Invasion or in this case a supposed INVITATION by Iraq then on to Saudi Arabia and down to the Strait of Hormuz and also the invasion of Iran.

The Soviet's wanted to deprive the U.S. of the Oil as well as gain a Warm Weather Naval Port and Soviet Ship Building Facilities. Faced with this...NOT POSSIBILITY...but actual plan...the Shah was not taken into consideration and this was a Mistake by U.S. War Planners. It caused the Iranian Islamic Revolution.

But all this is Academic now as the Iranian Youth will replace the Old Guard...it is inevitable. The problem is that there is no line that the Iranian Leadership will not cross to stay in power and this includes Killing their Own KIDS as well as starting a WAR with a Super Power. Split Infinity

reply to post by sonnny1

Are you talking about Irans support of Hezbollah and support for Syria in the region ?

Iran backs Hezbollah and Hamas through Syria.

Zionism sees that it is being cornered. So they are pulling the strings , they are giving money , getting support from puppets to get their mission done. To serve a ground for themselves anyway possible. Iran has been relying on Syrian govt for long time , but it is not supporting the civil war.

And about two side of the coin , it is clear that there is , but another side for Iran is the people in Syria , Lebanon and Palestine. It is their right to decide. They shouldn't be killed. Iran is not supporting divide and conquer. But Israel does. And they have spent much money on that.

Iran is supporting Hezbollah and Hamas because they are Muslims being oppressed. They are fighting an enemy with big plans of divide and conquer.

More info
example :


+ you should add this to my last reply to you.

reply to post by nenothtu

You don't have to answer unless you feel a compelling need to. You can probably already see where this is heading

No , you tell me.

We know what Israel wants . The control of oil ==> control of land.

They are using divide and conquer. Goal justifies the means for them

Originally posted by RimDaas

The families houses and property is stated as illegal and they are kicked out. Permit or not, they are deemed as illegal occupants. This has been happening throughout Palestine and Israel.
Palestine had been under Islamic rule for a long period in the times of the rise of Islam. There weren't many successive governments.

So the land they live on isn't theirs?

Palestine has changed governments more often that Jiffy Lube changes oil, all the way back to the days before Raamses of Egypt and the battle of Kadesh. The only thing that stays the same is the land and the sky - and now you're telling me the Palestinians don't have a legitimate claim to them, either?

OR - are you trying to say that only Islamic rule is legitimate, pulling out a small fraction of the area's history?

Remember - al Andalus was under Islamic rule for 800 years... How long must a rule stick before it is "legitimate"?

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by bjarneorn

 

The Main Reason the U.S. made the Mistake of supporting a Dictator...the Shah of Iran...was U.S. War Planners way of countering a Planned and proven plan with the release of the Soviets intent by Yeltsin's release of the actual plans of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan to be followed by a Soviet Invasion or in this case a supposed INVITATION by Iraq then on to Saudi Arabia and down to the Strait of Hormuz and also the invasion of Iran.

The Soviet's wanted to deprive the U.S. of the Oil as well as gain a Warm Weather Naval Port and Soviet Ship Building Facilities. Faced with this...NOT POSSIBILITY...but actual plan...the Shah was not taken into consideration and this was a Mistake by U.S. War Planners. It caused the Iranian Islamic Revolution.

But all this is Academic now as the Iranian Youth will replace the Old Guard...it is inevitable. The problem is that there is no line that the Iranian Leadership will not cross to stay in power and this includes Killing their Own KIDS as well as starting a WAR with a Super Power. Split Infinity

I may be wrong, but I think you mean Brezhnev, rather than Yeltsin.

All of that was set in motion way back before even Andropov.

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by nenothtu

 

You don't have to answer unless you feel a compelling need to. You can probably already see where this is heading

No , you tell me.

We know what Israel wants . The control of oil ==> control of land.

They are using divide and conquer. Goal justifies the means for them

I wasn't aware that Israel had a huge oil industry, Please enlighten me.

What has God got to do with oil?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by nenothtu

 

You don't have to answer unless you feel a compelling need to. You can probably already see where this is heading

No , you tell me.

We know what Israel wants . The control of oil ==> control of land.

They are using divide and conquer. Goal justifies the means for them

I wasn't aware that Israel had a huge oil industry, Please enlighten me.

What has God got to do with oil?

1-You didn't tell me.

2-Look how Iraq is divided into Iraq and Kurd state. The Kurds in Iraq will stimulate kurds in Iran and Turkey.

Then Iran + Iraq + Turkey ===> Iran + Iraq + Turkey + Kurdistan

According to what I said here and more information about the tribes in middle eastern countries such as Iran , They will divide countries into little countries.

So they can deal and control them easily.

It will be easy for them to take over or control these countries without taking over.

So , they will have total control of nutrient necessary for the body of NWO

So what's the scoop on the 12th Imam? Isn't this Imam's coming to be preceded by upheaval and war? Would not such a belief system, if true, be a part of the Iranian decision making process?

Originally posted by mideast

1-You didn't tell me.

No, I didn't, did I?

2-Look how Iraq is divided into Iraq and Kurd state. The Kurds in Iraq will stimulate kurds in Iran and Turkey.

Then Iran + Iraq + Turkey ===> Iran + Iraq + Turkey + Kurdistan

According to what I said here and more information about the tribes in middle eastern countries such as Iran , They will divide countries into little countries.

So they can deal and control them easily.

It will be easy for them to take over or control these countries without taking over.

So , they will have total control of nutrient necessary for the body of NWO

That scenario is a bit far fetched - where is the part where the Kurds take over the oil fields and then suddenly become Israelis?

If that's your biggest fear, it may be a good time to go fishing. it seems a reach to me to try to demonize Israelis with that particular line of thought. There's already plenty of real-world stuff they need to answer for.

Iran, The real issue??????????
No its not the real issue, nore is this thread an open discussion.
The thread should be called," USA is better than Iran, dont you agree?"

This thread is about an american asking the rest of us to praise and respect America and its stance on trying to bring Iran to its knee's for Israels sake. And that makes me a sick and angry man.

This thread was never meant to be an open discussion, it was created by an American in the hope that he and his USA government and Israel gets the worlds approval for its heavy handed stance on Iran and he gets a few more stars and flags for its stance against Iran too.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think Iran is a great country that loves and respects it citizens, But i DO think it has the right to develop its own Nuclear Power and i also think that if countries such as USA and Israel are allow to build and hold nuclear weapons , well, so should Iran.

The facts are, America has killed more people in its WAR OF TERROR than any other country has. The facts are, american kills more americans per year that Iran kills its own Iranians per year.
The fact is , Americans have lost their rights of free speech, So have the Iranians.
So if anything, the world should be over throwing your USA government for violating your freedoms and your rights too.

If Your American government can now arrest and hold any American citizen without charge for an undisclosed amount of time if your government deems you a USA citizen a threat to the country, So can Iran. (I dont think any country should have that right to do that to its citizens).

So every arguement the op and many of you have made against Iran, sit back for a second and read what rights your governmet has taken away from you lately, look and see what rights you have lost and i bet they are the same rights the Iranian government have taken away from is own.

So the facts is the USA is no better than Iran.
The fact is Iran violates it citizens rights just as much as the USA government violates its citizens rights.

So America, you are just as bad if not worse than Iran and any other country for violating its citizens rights and freedoms.

All of us on this planet are getting bent over and F***ed by our governments.
Iranians are getting screwed by their government just as hard as the rest of us.
So it P's me of to read a thread by an American that say's that their country is Better and has more freedom than another..
Your country aint better, nore does your goverment want you to have any freedoms.

America, you aint the land of the free anymore your the the land of the ignorant and the land of the FREE to screw over.

He who has not sinned may cast the first stone.
I bet none of you can cast that stone................. But if any of you do,,, well you are Hypocryts

Originally posted by MuonSpin

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Jesus is either whatever we call him or whoever he claims to be. Jesus did not call himself a Gnostic. Gnostics call him a Gnostic.

LOL. Correct.

Personally...I call him "fictional". However, it never ceases to amaze me how many "christians" talk about things like "social justice" and "sharing" like they are dirty words.

The association is cultural, not spiritual.

I think it goes all the way back to McCarthyism, USSR, Ayn Rand, Stalin, HEEETLER, etc etc. You know, back when everyone was paranoid about communism and such.

Now some in the Republican party have resurrected many of these paranoia/fear inducing attachments to soil their rival democrats.

And many Christians today consider the Republican party champions of their morals on the political stage.

Naturally, Christians who sway to the Republican agenda will be swayed by it's dogmas.

Without a doubt.

Honestly...part of me completely understands. If I had grown up with the severe brainwashing and propaganda of the 1950's- early '60's, I would probably have some sort of predisposition to thinking that anything with the word "social" in it was inherently evil as well.

However, the other part of me cannot wrap my head around how someone can embrace religious dogma which is ALL ABOUT kindness, sharing, peace, understanding, and free medical care and then embrace political dogma which espouses the virtues of war, xenophobia, willful ignorance, torture, and perpetuating the needless suffering of the ill and infirm and yet see absolutely no disconnect between the two vantage points.

Really...given how chill Jesus was about sexual indiscretions, his penchant for feeding the poor and starving, and providing medical care to the uninsured and destitute and being an environmentalist...shouldn't all the "christians" be "liberals" and "leftists"?

Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Actually you could consider that debacle in Iraq recently to be, at the very least, half-genocide. Just look at the casualty figures. The Coalition forces lost something in the order of 6000 men over the course of the war(roughly 10 years), while the figures on Iraqi casualties are e1xponentially higher (somewhere in the order of 1.5 - 2 million). I don't even know how they could call that little charade a war. A war is when TWO armies are fighting eachother. Looks like only one army was involved in that "war" if you ask me.

Agreed. And let's not forget the the 1000-fold increase in birth defects due to all those depleted uranium munitions we used over there. What could possibly be more genocidal than drastically altering a given people's ability to reproduce at the genetic level?

...and we wonder why so much of the world hates us.

reply to post by nenothtu

That scenario is a bit far fetched - where is the part where the Kurds take over the oil fields and then suddenly become Israelis?

Funny

I didn't say anything to you that could mean there is a direct connection between Kurd people and Israelis.

You are living thousands of Kilometers far from Kurds and you don't know much about them.

Then I see the selfish figure from you playing the all knowing guy around.

Being honest with you is not helping this situation much.

I advise that you better choose silence instead of choosing to play the joker around by making delusional connections.

Now I ave met someone who sees the truth and turns his head to ignore it.

You see ?

Even on the internet , it is not easy to hide who you really are.

BTW , it was a lesson for me.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by bjarneorn

 

The Main Reason the U.S. made the Mistake of supporting a Dictator...the Shah of Iran...was U.S. War Planners way of countering a Planned and proven plan with the release of the Soviets intent by Yeltsin's release of the actual plans of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan to be followed by a Soviet Invasion or in this case a supposed INVITATION by Iraq then on to Saudi Arabia and down to the Strait of Hormuz and also the invasion of Iran.

Yieltsin, was a drunkard and a paid of western fool ... why the man got his position, is way beyond me.

Every nation in the world, that has any armed force ... has plans of invading others. The U.S. has plans of destroying Europe, invading Europe ... the Russians have one, the Chinese have one, the British have one. If you think otherwise, you're a fool and have no place discussing these issues.

The U.S. is doing its best to deprive the Russians of oil, and they're doing their best to deprive China of the same. Western nations are even off the coast of China, drilling for it's oil ... claiming the coastline is not theirs. Any other nation, would consider these acts of war ...

The U.S. planners made a mistake then, they're making the same mistake now. You think the youth has any knowledge of anything? in reality, they'll damage their country more than Kohmeini did, not short term but long term. You think Iran is bad, because it hangs people for crimes? Saudi Arabi beheads them for the same crimes, in the US they fry them and it's a public entertainment, and nobody is crying wolf over Saudi Arabia, are they. And crying wolf over the US, has no purpose ... they've got big guns, you know. Between Iran, the US, and Saudi Arabia, the Saudi's are probably more fundamentalist, and the U.S. the most aggressive of the pack.

Wether the youth decides to go to war, or make peace ... they'll go to war or make peace for the wrong reasons, and to apeace for the wrong goals.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I've been reading and participating in many threads over the years here at ATS. I've been often accused of being Islamiphobic, Warmonger and or a brainwashed Zionist stooge etc and whatever else they have in their pocket.

The Iranian Government IMHO has [to the best of their ability in my understanding] tried to maintain order over their population just like any other country [I'll give them that as a right] But, Let's be honest here. There seems to be a fair amount of over the top rhetoric coming from Tehran. No, I'm not ANTI-Iran but rather Anti-BS.

What I've witnessed [I'm sure I'm not alone] over the years here is that when the US and or Israel get's mentioned in any thread, it's usually all hands on deck in denouncement. Meanwhile, when any of similar rhetoric is openly pronounce out of some Iranian official it get's defended or dispelled as "Just rhetoric" for internal Iranian consumption.

Personally and for the record. I'd like to see Iran and Israel put down their penis extensions and come to a face to face at a discussion table [Like the USSR and the US did] and talk it out! Who here can disagree with this proposition?

This isn't a case of one attempting to force their views on another, but rather, it's an open request for an unbiased and objective look and discussion. Does Iran have a right to Nuclear energy? Yes!, IMHO. Should Iran have Nukes? No! Not as long as they continue with the over the top Rhetoric, threats of closing the Straits and funding of certain Covert groups and activities.

Conversely,

Should the US/West take military action against them?

Hell no IMO!

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by bjarneorn

 

The Main Reason the U.S. made the Mistake of supporting a Dictator...the Shah of Iran...was U.S. War Planners way of countering a Planned and proven plan with the release of the Soviets intent by Yeltsin's release of the actual plans of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan to be followed by a Soviet Invasion or in this case a supposed INVITATION by Iraq then on to Saudi Arabia and down to the Strait of Hormuz and also the invasion of Iran.

The Soviet's wanted to deprive the U.S. of the Oil as well as gain a Warm Weather Naval Port and Soviet Ship Building Facilities. Faced with this...NOT POSSIBILITY...but actual plan...the Shah was not taken into consideration and this was a Mistake by U.S. War Planners. It caused the Iranian Islamic Revolution.

But all this is Academic now as the Iranian Youth will replace the Old Guard...it is inevitable. The problem is that there is no line that the Iranian Leadership will not cross to stay in power and this includes Killing their Own KIDS as well as starting a WAR with a Super Power. Split Infinity

I may be wrong, but I think you mean Brezhnev, rather than Yeltsin.

All of that was set in motion way back before even Andropov.

I was stating that the Soviet Invasion Plans were made public during Yeltsin's period of Russian Leadership. As far as the plan. This plan was actually conceived by Stalin and the details were refined over the years by Brezhnev and so on. The U.S. was made aware of this plan by as early as late 1945 and this information was gathered by several defectors as well as information given to U.S. Intelligence by High Level Nazi Generals who told the U.S. that Hitler had discussed a Nazi/Soviet takeover of the African and Middle Eastern Oil Fields.

Hitler invaded Russia and this ended that alliance. Following the end of WWII...the Soviet Military Leadership had determined that in order for the Warsaw Pact Alliance to be successful in their plans to invade Europe...they had to secure a steady supply of Oil. Still...the buildup of U.S. Nuclear Capable bases surrounding the East held Soviet plans in check. Split Infinity

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Funny

I didn't say anything to you that could mean there is a direct connection between Kurd people and Israelis.

Well, to be honest, the logic flow was hard to follow. One minute you were talking about the evil Israelis and their designs on middle eastern oil, and the next you were taking about some nebulous and non-specific "they", and then you just seemed to toss Kurds into the mix willy-nilly. It was my fault for assuming that your "they" was to be associated with the Israelis, just because it appeared that Your "they" and your version of Israelis had the same objectives in your scenario. I'm still mystified as to why you brought the Kurds into it at all.

I apologize for my misconception. Perhaps you could state your case somewhat more clearly, and remove the vagaries so that I could grasp it better.

You are living thousands of Kilometers far from Kurds and you don't know much about them.

I'm not sure where the nearest Kurd is, but you're right, I don't rub elbows with them on a daily basis. Then again, it appears that I don't quite understand why you brought them up to begin with, so the point may be moot.

Then I see the selfish figure from you playing the all knowing guy around.

"All knowing"? No. I'm just "mostly knowing".

Being honest with you is not helping this situation much.

You might perhaps try adding some clarity to the "honesty", and subtracting some of the vagueness. That might help this situation quite a lot.

I advise that you better choose silence instead of choosing to play the joker around by making delusional connections.

I'll take your advice under consideration, and you can bet you won't lead me into one of these vague cul-de-sacs again by promoting these "delusional connections" as you did. Either be clearer, or expect me to not respond, and formulate my own opinions disregarding your input.

Now I ave met someone who sees the truth and turns his head to ignore it.

You see ?

Even on the internet , it is not easy to hide who you really are.

BTW , it was a lesson for me.

It's much easier to find who I really am than you know. I don't hide very well at all. I've never ignored the truth, and if you think I have, then I submit that the fault may lie in your presentation of "the truth". It was a lesson for me as well. Unless you can state your case with more clarity, then there is no particular reason I should take it into account.

Thanks for the lesson, and have a nice day!

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

I was stating that the Soviet Invasion Plans were made public during Yeltsin's period of Russian Leadership. As far as the plan. This plan was actually conceived by Stalin and the details were refined over the years by Brezhnev and so on. The U.S. was made aware of this plan by as early as late 1945 and this information was gathered by several defectors as well as information given to U.S. Intelligence by High Level Nazi Generals who told the U.S. that Hitler had discussed a Nazi/Soviet takeover of the African and Middle Eastern Oil Fields.

Hitler invaded Russia and this ended that alliance. Following the end of WWII...the Soviet Military Leadership had determined that in order for the Warsaw Pact Alliance to be successful in their plans to invade Europe...they had to secure a steady supply of Oil. Still...the buildup of U.S. Nuclear Capable bases surrounding the East held Soviet plans in check. Split Infinity

Well, that may have been the source of my confusion, then. The plan had already been enacted and completed over a decade before Yeltsin ever took the stage, and I wasn't clear on what you thought Yeltsin had to do with it. It appears that you are saying now that he released the documents long after action..The earliest documentation I've seen dates from 1977 - intercepted Soviet Embassy communiques. If they planned the Afghan invasion as early as 1945, then they took their sweet time about it!

reply to post by bjarneorn

Of course the U.S. has war Plans for every possible scenario. This all part of being prepared. The Soviet Union was in the process of IMPLEMENTING THE PLAN as they invaded Afghanistan.

As far as me being a fool...you DO know that Russia has a Massive amount of Oil Reserves as well as Russia's MAIN interest in Iran is the money that Russia makes for the use of Russian Gas Pipelines that connect into the Iranian Gas Pipeline...provides Natural Gas to a Huge Region that includes some former Soviet Union States as well as Europe. Russia has all the energy resources it needs in it's vast country but does not have the expertise to properly as well as Low Cost extract these resources. Thus the Russians have American Companies helping them to set up Oil Drilling Fields to extract hard to get at Oceans of Oil under the Siberian Tundra as well as American help in the use of High Tech. U.S. Drilling techniques. Russia's ONLY interest in IRAN is the Gas Pipeline Money as well as Arms sales and even though they made a HUGE PROFIT...they regret now selling Iran the Russian Nuclear Tech. as Iran sponsors Radical Islamic Movements within both Russia as well as former Soviet Controlled States and Iran...although Russia would never admit it...has become a THORN in the Bears side!

As far as the U.S. desiring a Containment of China...it is not in the U.S.'s best interest to deny China the ability to purchase Oil as the Greater the average Chinese Citizen Prospers and becomes Middle Class...the Greater the Desire of that Chinese Citizen has to have more say within their own countries Politics and it is a matter of time before we see the end of China's Communist Leadership as a Educated Population that has some wealth will no longer allow themselves to be treated as Children as the Communist Leadership GRABS UP as much wealth as they can. As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned...Yes...it is a Kingdom but since the Saudi Leadership tends to spread some of the Oil Wealth...a High Standard of Living tends to keep a population silent about lack of their right to vote...they will eventually fall also.

So tell me...WHO is the FOOL here? Is it ME for actually being a person who has been to the places we are talking about? Or is it YOU for assuming that YOU know better? Iranian Leadership of the Old Religious Guard will FALL and the only question is...Will it fall by the hands of it's own people? Or will it fall because it is so desperate to maintain Power and Money that it starts a WAR against a SUPER POWER to rally those citizens in some Patriotic Sense to Defeat the Great Satan? And one last question...will the Fall be clean or Messy? If I know one thing for certain...the Religious Old Guard will allow the Deaths of any number of their own KIDS just to keep themselves in POWER! Split Infinity

I think you could begin with talks on the lower echelons of diplomatic traffic between the countries, as for Ahmedinejad or Khamenei, its not really credible advocating talks after all the nasty things they said about Israel, but its never too late.
Lets hope that the large numbers of youngsters in Iran get rationalized (during school and such) and usher a period of enlightenment.(literally)
Same goes to Israel, except that country already has all the institutions of a solid legal state (rechtsstaat).