Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

reply to post by mideast

I advise you to read the Koran/quran, its states quite clearly it is the duty of true Muslims to KILL unbelievers, or if they don't want to die, they must pay an 'unbelievers tax' Non Muslim women are fair game for rape (as happens a lot in western counties, see rantburg and atlas shrugs sites). There is a post on ATS about Christians being crucified in Libya (A Muslim country).Any Muslim woman/girl that 'dishonours' her family is killed by the father/brothers.

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That's a very calm, rational, and objective approach Slayer,

About time we had some of that on ATS..

I agree with your views,

But there's still a monster of concern festering the back of my mind.. and that's..

Do I trust Israel with nuclear weapons?? NO.

I will try to approach this as a neutral observer, in that I am not advocating for either side in this conflict. But I think all involved should step back and really THINK about the outcome of this, ie how this thing would most likely play out. My personal opinion is that it could start a chain reaction of destruction. Israel will most likely conduct their strike. Iran will retaliate with conventional means, probably scuds tipped with God knows what, probably on a grand scale (the whole use'm or lose'm strategy from the cold war comes to play) Massive loss of life. At this point Israel will probably escalate the war to a full scale nuclear retaliation, against Iran and probably any other countries in the region that they anticipate as a threat. At this point you have, on both sides MASSIVE loss of life. We have never seen this level of loss of life. Multiple Hiroshima's, with weapons most probably considerably more powerful than those used by the US on Japan. Basically the whole region goes up in flames and it does not end well for anyone. The oil supply will be disrupted for months if not years, and the effect of that on the global economy, as tenuous as it is, will be nothing less than catastrophic. I dont know how rational intelligent people can be contemplating this. Then you have to ask how Russia and China will be affected. How will they react to being downwind from huge amounts of fallout? Do they go on high alert? Is there the chance of an accident or miscalculation that will result in a nuclear strike on the US, Russia, or China?My guess is yes, most people dont realize how dilapidated the Air defense system is in the former Soviet union. As a result their warning time and this the time to react to a percieved threat is greatly reduced. This could result in disaster. Will North Korea suddenly decide to attack the south, possibly even the US west coast, fearing the US may use the opportunity to attack them, seeing that they are now the last country left on the "axis of evil"? Then there is Pakistan, which is already close to exploding in violence, the govermnent there will most likely be overthrown, then you have the Taliban with nukes. Will India just sit by idly while the nuclear arsenal of a hostile neighbor falls into the hands of terrorists? So then you have a possible war erupting between India and Pakistan. China could easily get dragged into that conflict. Then backing away from the Middle East, God knows what kind of terrorism will flare up all over the rest of the world. So basically what we are looking at is a good part of the world going up in flames, with God knows what going on elsewhere. Its a lot of unknowns, and the objective of someone initiating this is unclear, it seems like total madness. The people on both sides need to look down at their children and think about what they are bringing on their heads. This thing could turn into a global war very quickly. There is no doubt we will all be affected by it.

Originally posted by neo96

The only way you can have worldwide peace is if there is one person or nation in complete domination or control who all others cannot stand up to or would dare challenge your ideals.

Like an Islamic caliphate led by islamo fascist theocracy that gets defended on this site on a daily basis. That too few will ever challenge because they are so obsessed with blind ideology.

you have been watching to much fox news

what business do we have interfering with other people's culture ..USA/Israel are so fecking paranoid ..

the only ones doing the killing are uncle sam and its cronies ..... FACT!! ..

It is fascinating to see the layers stripped back with the debate on this thread. It is like all the threads on this topic distilled into a concentrated version of themselves.

Everyone's opening position is centered around whether or not Iran has the right to develop nuclear energy capability, which quickly shifts to a debate about whether or not such a program poses a danger to the international community.

Some threads stay there, but you all appear to have had a lot of practice at this, and have become expert squaredancers in this perpetual hoedown.

And so we got right to layer 2 by page 3. Which is when everyone more or less has been forced to acknowledge that there is at least the potential that Iran may use the program for non-energy related purposes; and we now get to wrangle about whether or not Iran has the right to arm itself.

Now, you guys advocating an armed Iran- you've seen the footage of what these things do, right? And you're arguing for more of those getting kicked out when the entire planet is already bristling with bunkers filled with the nasty buggers? And why? Because everyone else has them, why not Iran? That's the logic of the playground, and just because a few kids have some inconceivably dangerous toys they refuse to put down does not mean we should distribute them to all the children out of fairness.

Some things aren't fair, and never can be. Nukes don't make anyone safer. You are concerned about an attack? That's what allies are for. That's what trade partners are for. Which they already have, and could acquire more if they feel so helpless.

But even this isn't the real debate, though it gets everyone nice and hysterical which is conducive to the shrill #storm that is layer three. This is what has been steering the previous debates all along, our reason and research having been a foil for our gut: when it comes to religion and national identity, we have a lot of beef. And a lot of history.

It might be time to really knuckle down on this layer of the debate, and put our gut reactions under the microscope. Let the poison drain out, and maybe we could get somewhere with the energy and armament issues.

Originally posted by sitchin

the only ones doing the killing are uncle sam and its cronies ..... FACT!! ..

Putting it in all caps doesn't make it true. And unsourced opinion is not fact.

These animosities began long before America was even a country and one would think, after nearly a thousand years of this bickering we might have learned something.

~Heff

reply to post by JohnJasper



Hi John

Thanks for your reply

You said that you wouldn't want to live in Iran but didn't say why. You said that their country isn't great but again didn't say why. Perhaps you could tell us what you based those judgements on.

For similar reasons to you in that I would not wish to live in a state.country that is ruled by religion. I don't have issues with people having religious beliefs, I just feel the state needs to be truly secular and religion has no right to dictate the way we live.

And to be honest I feel in a place like Iran, my life expectancy would reduce significantly, I have a reactionary nature and if I was around when for example the morality police were out beating on women, I could not idly stand by.

Iran is in my eyes at least not the worst state in the ME, as you say Saudi Arabia is far far worse, so is Bahrain, funny how those being allies to America their appalling human rights record never gets mentioned or has any anger/hatred directed towards it.

Libya really was a model Islamic country, out of them all it was perhaps the best of them, it really was a tragedy what happened there. I have no love for Syria, but like Iran it is my belief that the people of the country need to deal with the issues, and the uprising in Syria has nothing to do with the Syrian people it was started outside of the country.

I would like to visit Iran, but I cannot ever see me wanting to live there. The Persian I have met have all been really nice people, same with Lebanese people, lovely lovely people, but as a country to live in, no thanks.

The west really needs to start offering the hand of friendship to the ME, not piling conditions upon them and saying do things our way or we will make your life miserable.

reply to post by sitchin


I as an Native American find your statement kind of Ironic, you " messed with our culture" about 200 some years ago. People in India, Ireland, and a slew of other countries would agree with me. For quite some time, the Brits pillaged any country their ships could reach. I do agree with you though, we should stay out of other peoples business. But after all, we learned this behavior from our mother country.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I've been reading and participating in many threads over the years here at ATS. I've been often accused of being Islamiphobic, Warmonger and or a brainwashed Zionist stooge etc and whatever else they have in their pocket.

The Iranian Government IMHO has [to the best of their ability in my understanding] tried to maintain order over their population just like any other country [I'll give them that as a right] But, Let's be honest here. There seems to be a fair amount of over the top rhetoric coming from Tehran. No, I'm not ANTI-Iran but rather Anti-BS.

Well on that note, I think its better you worry about your own country, whichever that is, and do your duty to keep it BS free. Iran is only a threat to their own people, and nobody else, so I don't understand why you are picking on them. Now, if you are considering visiting the country, or immigrating there, then I can see why you want to talk about Iran.

reply to post by openminded2011


so you do admit that's exactly whats happening now then

as for been born in the UK does not make me into the monster that she has become

i pledge Allegiance to no flag and have never been blinded by patriotism

it is what it is

reply to post by sitchin


good, I guess that logic applies to people born on US soil too, right? We dont always agree with what is done in our name either.

Originally posted by openminded2011
reply to post by sitchin

 

I as an Native American find your statement kind of Ironic, you " messed with our culture" about 200 some years ago. People in India, Ireland, and a slew of other countries would agree with me. For quite some time, the Brits pillaged any country their ships could reach. I do agree with you though, we should stay out of other peoples business. But after all, we learned this behavior from our mother country.

edit on 19-8-2012 by openminded2011 because: (no reason given)

since when did i ever mess with your culture???????

think before you reply

Originally posted by Hefficide

Originally posted by sitchin

the only ones doing the killing are uncle sam and its cronies ..... FACT!! ..

Putting it in all caps doesn't make it true. And unsourced opinion is not fact.

These animosities began long before America was even a country and one would think, after nearly a thousand years of this bickering we might have learned something.

~Heff

i think you,ll find its a fact rather than an opinion .....but like we have already gathered ...we do not agree on who is at fault

reply to post by sitchin


That's easy. The English came to North America and pretty much exterminated the native people there. Not you, not attacking you, but it seems alot of Brits are hypercritical of the US for exercising the same policies the UK has pulled for centuries, and its just ironic to me. Peace.

This is a tired discussion. Slayer, you're as biased as they come. So do people who constantly defend Iran - none of your posts whille affect the overall situation with Iran/Israel/US. So why even bother? It's just going to incite more hate than usual.

reply to post by openminded2011


While we're indicting the British, we're going to have to put Spain and France up in the dock, too. A lot of folks were in on that particular atrocity. And I guess that's one of those gut reactions I was talking about.

All of our ancestors are covered in each others' blood, and we can't stop pointing fingers. Not only because we still feel personally wounded somehow, but also because it makes our opponent look like an asshole by association when it is brought into the debate. Which is kind of a dirty trick.

So perhaps we worry less about grievances our grandparents harbored against each other and examine the present realities of the situation.

Originally posted by ALF88


2. The headline and first sentence of the article say

Iran calls Israel's existence an 'insult,' as prominent rabbi warns it's more than rhetoric

Israel's existence is an "insult to all humanity," Iran's president said Friday in one of his sharpest attacks yet against the Jewish state, as Israel openly debates whether to attack Iran over its nuclear program.

just to state the correct translation of what Ahmadinejad really said, two lines below:

"The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity,"

Blatant propaganda for the ignorant and dumb masses to justify an attack on Iran.

So Iran will be ok with it if we just remove the current regime in Israel and replace it with a thoroughly Jewish theocracy? I can lobby for that if it's gonna make Iran smile and stop talking tough!

If the answer is "no, that's not cool", then they are just using "zionist regime" as a code word for "them JEWS"..