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Iran, The real issue, An open discussion

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posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 




Not as long as they continue with the over the top Rhetoric, threats of closing the Straits and funding of certain Covert groups and activities.

The U.S doesn't make threats of war and economical termoil? Murdering their people and spying on them constantly? WOW yeah your right man




posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:22 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio
Iran is not a secular state...Iran is an Islamic Republic,

the political leadership is guided by the Imams,
the Laws, Culture, Commerce, Education, Military are all interwined with Islam Religion...

it would be impossible for the Islamic Republic of Iran to engage in straight-talk in any bi-lateral or multi-lateral mode of talks with non-Islamic Nations.

Your OP idea is thus Flawed...and guaranteed FAIL


We should meet them 1/2 way, --> your suggested conditions are a direct slap-in-the-face to their Ideaology & way of life


Good point.

Then what is the solution?



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by Evanzsayz
 


You think the government of Iran is innocent of any of these charges???

If you answer honestly then I find it impossible to conceive of how to pick sides between two wrongs.

~Heff



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by mideast
 


I felt I've been clear in several threads that I empathize with the people of Iran. All people of the world for that matter. I wish no harm upon 99.999% of humanity.

I want to be respected so I respect. But I am old enough to understand this, When I was younger I felt the reverse... I wouldn't respect until I was respected. This is not a rational way to be. I have a lot of scars on my body from learning this lesson.

Corporations and big business run everything in the world. $$$ talks. They get what they want.

To equate those interests with "USA" is naive. To equate a nations people with its government is naive. You are aware that we protest our government just as other nations do? Right?

People are people. A very small percentage of people are bad. The rest are OK. To lash out at any whole group is just not logical. There's no honor in it.

~Heff

ETA - addressing member edit:

The Chinese have the largest growing middle and upper class in the world. Slaves don't have plasma TV's and sports cars.... Right?

China is the happiest nation in the world right now. They get all the rewards and none of the blame.
edit on 8/19/12 by Hefficide because: (no reason given)




Look at the population of working class + those who get plasma and sport car. Then compare those numbers.

It is 0.001 % of the people.



China is the happiest nation in the world right now. They get all the rewards and none of the blame.


I'll tell you as soon as the working class revolts.



Corporations and big business run everything in the world.


That is the way it is and we don't like it to be. That was why Iranian people got Shah out of Iran.

 


I really hope that we don't get more from your govt in the middle east. We have had already.

I hope for one day of peace and equality.

and I respect other nations and that is why I am here on this site.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Capitalism is what they follow in every country to get the profit

But the way they coordinate is imperialism. Energy , working people , scientific improvement.


Because goodness knows there is no profit to be had in communist centralised ownership of production.


It is the true choice ?

Is this your answer ? We didn't like communism , so we chose Capitalism ?



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


I never said Iran was innocent, neither is the USA in that matter. USA has them beat by a long shot.

Dropped Nuclear bombs on people - check
Invaded Countries - check
Killed millions of people - check

Can't say the same for Iran.

Oh yeah Iran did kill alot of Iraqi's but so did USA!
edit on 19-8-2012 by Evanzsayz because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by St Udio
Iran is not a secular state...Iran is an Islamic Republic,

the political leadership is guided by the Imams,
the Laws, Culture, Commerce, Education, Military are all interwined with Islam Religion...

it would be impossible for the Islamic Republic of Iran to engage in straight-talk in any bi-lateral or multi-lateral mode of talks with non-Islamic Nations.

Your OP idea is thus Flawed...and guaranteed FAIL


We should meet them 1/2 way, --> your suggested conditions are a direct slap-in-the-face to their Ideaology & way of life


Good point.

Then what is the solution?


Let Muslim people alone.

Leave energy resources alone.

They won't impose their way of life on you. So you don't do it ,too.

It is your govt which I am talking to.

Let the peace come.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by PrinceDreamer
reply to post by SLAYER69
I think we may have clashed heads over this issue before. But I am glad to see you taking a more balanced approach to the subject. But if we are going to talk about the issue we need to look far deeper than does Iran deserve nuclear power and or weapons...


PrinceDreamer, thanks for inputting some reality into this thread. SLAYER69 is obviously so lost in the US/Israel rhetoric that even when being "balanced" he cannot get past the propaganda. He will never change his mind based on what we say but will hopefully see the light one day and join those of us who have broken free of the programming.

Some final points - if any of this had anything to do with Iran's human rights record, (or that of Syria, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, etc) we would be tackling Iran AFTER fixing the problems in Saudi Arabia.

You said that you wouldn't want to live in Iran but didn't say why. You said that their country isn't great but again didn't say why. Perhaps you could tell us what you based those judgements on. I wouldn't want to live in Iran for the same reason that I wouldn't want to live any place where being an atheist would be highly frowned on which includes my home state of Georgia! Otherwise, from what I've seen and heard outside of the western propaganda machine, Iran seems to be a great place to live as long that is as long as you're not a nuclear scientist. By the same measure, Syria and Libya were great places to live as well until the western-initiated mercenary forces (posing as rebels) put a permanent an end to their peace.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Capitalism is what they follow in every country to get the profit

But the way they coordinate is imperialism. Energy , working people , scientific improvement.


Because goodness knows there is no profit to be had in communist centralised ownership of production.


It is the true choice ?

Is this your answer ? We didn't like communism , so we chose Capitalism ?


I am coming from a viewpoint of our Founding Fathers, liberty, and free enterprise and sound economic principles. There is nothing good to be had from communism, and socialism is just the bridge between capitalism and communism.

Here, my dear
www.freeenterprise.com...


edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by Evanzsayz
 


The only difference in your checklist that I see as factually being right is the nuclear bomb statement.If we play the checklist game - then I counter with Massacring the Kurds.... Then I raise you with the fact that Persia has been going to war since pre-history.

But I'm not here to win a contest. I'm here to learn and to share. Sometimes I get terse or even angry about things here.... but mostly not. So none of the above matters to me right now.

What does matter is that seeking to assign blame doesn't solve anything. There is an old saying that when you point one finger at somebody else, your four other fingers are pointing back at you.

That's my point in this thread. I am an American and, to the best of my knowledge, I've never hurt an Iranian in my life... though I've been in enough bar fights that it's possible I did - if so it wasn't because they were Iranian.. It would have been because I was drunk and they were there.


~Heff



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 
Other than threats from Israel

Hmmmm.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 05:56 AM
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reply to post by Tarzan the apeman.
 


There are current threats from Israel to bomb Iran. It can't be too secret... The Google knows. So I know. This is nefarious how exactly???

~Heff



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 
Im seeing 2 sides in this fight,two dogs growling at one another. Fighting over a religious bone. There is not one dog here making the threats. Just my 2 cents.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Capitalism is what they follow in every country to get the profit

But the way they coordinate is imperialism. Energy , working people , scientific improvement.


Because goodness knows there is no profit to be had in communist centralised ownership of production.


It is the true choice ?

Is this your answer ? We didn't like communism , so we chose Capitalism ?


I am coming from a viewpoint of our Founding Fathers, liberty, and free enterprise and sound economic principles. There is nothing good to be had from communism, and socialism is just the bridge between capitalism and communism.

Here, my dear
www.freeenterprise.com...


edit on 19-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)


Hilarious. You only support the founding fathers when they support your own view point. Curious if you support Ron Paul? I doubt it. You still haven't addressed my point. In fact, nobody has.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 06:30 AM
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Well, if we can't even agree on ATS then I don't see much hope for the survival of Iran, or the futures of America or Israel.

There is no middle ground. Those who support Iran will do so, even after they blow up Israel. Because Israel is a bad guy to many here. And then, of course, they'll blow up Iran.

America? America will just be hated as it's always been hated. If we interfere, it'll be wrong. If we stay out, then it'll be wrong.



I don't want to see war, but I fear that I'll see one anyway. Thre are too many people itching for a fight. On ALL sides.

Maybe I'll just stick to the UFO or philosophy threads.

These threads are really begining to (as the kids say) harsh my mellow.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 06:36 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Well until the problem of Palestine and Israel is sorted out. There is no hope for the region. It all revolves around this issue IMO. Considering, we still have troubles over Norther Ireland, the signs dont look good for that region of the world. Its a shame there are no "cool heads" in the region who want to prevail.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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I blame lord Balfour for giving away land that did not belong to him, just like Chamberlain gave away land that did not belong to him, what is it with Brits giving away stuff that does not belong to them?



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 07:12 AM
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I have been participating in this for a long time as well, and most of the time I play "the Devils Advocate", in that I always show the other side of the coin.

And I'm going to do this here as well ...

You say Israel and Iran ... that a lot of rhetoric has come out of Iran, concerning "jews". Well, let's take the gloves off here ... let's stop running around the Bushes with the subject. Let's open the Pandora Box, and discuss the issues here.

Iran is a nation of people of middle east, who are muslim and to them, Israel and the people at are there, represent Western invaders. The jews, however, try their very best (as I understand) to try and prove with genetics that they inreality are not western, but have a direct link to the jews of ancient times. You know, I'm with Iranians on that issue ... I don't care how much DNA the Jews put forward to prove that they are indeed some inbred lot ... I say it's a bunch of a lie. They are just like me, and every other European ... same face, same hair, same eyes ... they're just the same people as every other European, who call themselves Jews instead of Christians. They can call themselves "Roses" or "Buddists", for all I care ... they European part of these people, are no more "original jews" than I am. With that I "write out" any portion of a biblical right to establish some lost nation.

So, I give Iran right on this part ... they are invaders.

Now, fast forward ... let's talk about "western" agenda. Well, western agenda is to "end", and read correctly "end" indiginious populations. That's what all these wars are for, in reality ... and that is what the term "NWO" in reality means. People living in "huts" in Afghanistan, Iran, Vietnam ... are being warred upon, because they are sitting on raw material, that is needed for modern industry. But this indigenous population, the nomads, have no stake in modern industry. They're like the indian population of NA, that is sitting on their holy burrial grounds, that just happen to be on top of a possible "gold mine", if you understand my point here. Therefore, the NWO, is about modernising all these tribes ... so that they are no longer living on the land, but living in societies. This is called "freedom", and living of the land is called being a "Nomad". Industrializing farming for profit ...

The problem with all of this, is that some see a problem with this future. But there are problems on multiple levels ... one of the problems is, that iran is not the country that is trying to "keep*" Iran a "Nomad" country of free indidivuals who can live of the land. They are industrializing themselves, 24/7, with aid from China, Russia, and even the United States.

It is because of this, that it is an obvious "rhetoric" that is meant for the local population, and has no real weight in it.

The other problem, that the Government of Iran, just as the Government of all other nations, is following the NWO agenda, to enrich the rich, and enpower the rich over the poor.

The ultimate goal of the NWO, is to rewind the clock for the general public, while the rich live in an advanced luxury. And the ultimate result of it, has been described in so many visions from different visionaries, in books like "1984", "soilent green", "in time". Some are more fiction, that visions, or fictions based on other visions ... but whatever ... that is the future, of the NWO scheme. We are gradually controlled more, regulated more, for our own security ... nature is regulated, to produce food and materials, to be freed from "soiled" by the public, etc. (Read sign: "Don't step on the grass ... "). You don't have to dwell long on it, to understand where its going ... the future as seen by many SciFi writers, is not just crazy notions ... it's more a vision.

What I'm trying to get at, is "underneath" the rhetoric and underneath the public that is being fed it, there is a serious subconscious knowledge that there is dire straits ahead. Wether assigning it to "Israel" as being the evil entity that is "scheming" it all, is true or not ... the biblical term of "Jerusalem" being a haven while everything outside it's wall is hell ... does cause worries. The constant implications of "zionists" doing it, does cause worries. Wether Israel is just being a "patsy" or wether they are truly one of the "designers", we don't know ... but what I do know, is that none of this is what it seems to be. And all the "readings" and "signs" of end times, that is being constantly fed us ... is by "design" and not because there are any times ahead.

I will believe that Israel or the US attack Iran, when it happens. I'll believe China will support Iran against the US, and thus demolishing large portions of it's own profits, when I see it.

Until it happens, I'll say what I've always said ... this is just "rhetoric, designed for public consumption".

That is my honest opinon on it.


edit on 19/8/2012 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 07:13 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 

There hasn't been peace in the Middle East since. . . . . um. . . .. . .has there ever been peace in the Middle East?

It's a real damned shame.



posted on Aug, 19 2012 @ 07:17 AM
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Slayer, that has to be one of the best opening posts I have read on here for a long time, and to be honest, I can't really add much to it as I fully agree with everything you wrote.

Nuclear power, yes, nuclear weapons, no, America (and Britain) stand the hell down and support them, help them, give them advice on building the reactors rather than give the hypocritical BS that you have been doing.



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