When the economy is built on the idea that a small group of elitists control most of the wealth.. your naturally going to have high poverty and unemployment.

Sure the elitists are often called innovative.. often true.. but then again it's unfortunate they basically have the government in the palm of there hand..

The same elitists ship all the jobs to Red China or Mexico... they hate the idea that they have to pay the American worker more than 5 cents an hour and provide health benefits.

Sure we'd like everyone to have a PhD and have the greatest job... but it just doesen't work that way. You can't expect everyone to come out of employment assistance or college to come out making a pittiful pittance that is sufficent to support the heavily rising cost of living.

It's all about centralist control of the wealth and the job market. I'd rather see a more public ownership of wealth, but elite capitalists will never accept the idea that they can't own all the wealth to themselves. Yes, the argument is that these people worked hard to make the billions they do... this is true but now since they own several billion.. I think it is fair that they pay the worker a livable wage and provide benefits.

No matter what either of them say... Kerry and Bush are both elitists. The third party movement has pretty much been disabled, so what's our other option?
In Henry VI, Shakespeare suggests that civilization NEEDS the aristocracy or else general chaos would replace civil order. Mark Twain claims that the free world especially needs the aristocracy, so that we may have something to strive towards (although he mostly bashed elitists). I don't like it either, but it seems to be the same old hierarchical system that we find in most mammals. He who has the most resources, is in command.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Delusional BT? Say what?
Ahh, wait...let me guess, this is Bushie's fault also, huh?

You know whats really delusional? Delusional is knowing that this report is NOT done by a non-partisan group. Delusional is knowing that this report is nohing but bias half-truths. Delusional is that no one has taken into account the key words of: family of four. Delusional is thinking that Kerry and the Democrats have a solution to this...

More of the same ole strategy: blame, blame, its Bush's fault, its Bush's fault...



seekerof

A few more delusional ideas that are floated around......
1. That 90% of our machinists, our bus drivers, our store clerks, and well, go through the paper and look and see just how many jobs are paying less that that twice the proverty rate, that all those people SHOULD be retrained, not to mention can be retrained without severe repercussion to our economy! NY recently considered increasing minimum wage....you'd be surprised just how many people would be unwilling to pay a little extra money for that Big Mac!! Since the only ones who could meet all their financial obligations on that kind of salary would be students, well, maybe the MacDonalds and such should only be open during non-school hours?

2. The idea that people who can't afford to have children don't have them....not only is this delusional, it is self destructing. And, we will have a new "crisis" hitting us soon when the repercussion of so many opting not to have as many children as our parents did comes upon us!

3. That no one is paying for the food, the heat, the medical care, and the roof over the low wage workers and their families. Someone is, in most cases, and their name is MR. Taxpayer! And, well, businesses might benefit from the ability to pay less than a living wage, but our country sure doesn't. How much does it cost to send one dollar through these various aide programs? Seems like it would be much cheaper.....to SOCIETY...if the boss just gave them enough money to sustain them and their children, since, homeless, hungry, cold employees don't make good employees I don't believe, and where is the business owner who doesn't hope that their workforce is renewed when their employees age and die off?

4. Delustional is to think that all of these gov't programs are actually reaching all those who are in need of help to have their basic needs of healthcare, food, shelter, heat, transportation, ect. NY is one of the most generous states in the nation when it comes to this, and guess what, they are still missing alot of people!! If you disagree with me on that point, fine, you disagree with me....but then you still have to look at the shape our state is in financially, how the costs of these programs have skyrocketed over the past years, and well, project into the future. How long do you think it can last without some sort of pressure being put on the business world to get the costs down on these basic necessities?

And, the 5th and most delusional idea that is floating around!!
That the government can actually fix this mess through new programs, more money, and more laws....without the massive reconstruction, probably socialization, of the entire economy.
We can't even decide where women should be. Should they be home, tending to the kiddies, or should they be in the workforce, helping to earn a living.. Right now, we seem to be catering to a dual system here. On the one hand, we recognize the difficulty women have in earning even half of the monetary support for their kids. But, on the other, for most, that second wage earner is a necessity! If you believe that she should be held responsible for half of the financial support, well, maybe we should recognize the contribution that she makes when she has children and offer her a temporary gov't subsidy for the years that she spends tending to them until they are school age, or make it a little clearer to the guys that they too are equally responsible for the kid's care and nurturing? Otherwise, well, that one wageearner needs to make enough to support the average family. And, when it comes to this aspect of it, it comes down to the responsibilities of citizens, and business owners, not the gov't, and thier unwillingness to recognize them and meet them which is causing the gov't to step in and fullfil these needs itself. And, well, our government naturally does a half-arsed job with anything it does.

Originally posted by dawnstar
umm....a machinist (with close to 20 yrs of experience and training), making low level wages...that's sickening!!!

What gets me though is when you are talking about the near minumum wage jobs....work three jobs???

Sorry for my late response, I usually don't get a chance to even touch my computer outside of work anymore.

Anyway, as far as your husband. This is an unfortunate problem with living in a free market society. There will always be someone out there who is willing to do your jobs cheaper, better and faster. I myself have fallen victim to this and that is just the way things go. The key is to be able to make yourself an asset wherever you are and if you can't you find other avenues to supplement your income. You will probably find a place willing to pay more for doing something similar. Or you can go the independant route and start your own company.

Now second, I never said to work three jobs. Go to college and get a degree while trying to maintain a family. I know how difficult that is and I personally have trouble trying to maintain my job, start a company and be a good dad. But I keep my eyes on the prize. I know with all this hard work I will be able to spend more time with my son in the long run. But alas, I am straying far off topic. The point I was getting at, is that there are plenty of govt. programs out there which can help make up for some of these problems. I am a big fan of helping you to help yourself.

No job has unlimited security, this is just not the society we live in anymore. I work for a public utility and I don't think I have unlimited security. We constantly need to keep looking around the corner and find out whats best for us as an individual and make ourselves worth more than $7.15 per hour.

Oh my Gawd? 39 Million Americans! Imagine them being forced to live in such inhuman conditions? I'll bet some children are living 3 in the same room. They probably have nothing to eat but hamburgers, bananas, and beans! Imagine having only one color TV and only basic cable? Some of these people probably don't even own a DVD! The inhumanity.

Travel the world some folks. No one in America is poor by world standards. Assistance with food, shelter, health care, and the basic necessities of life are available in all 50 states. No adult goes hungry or sleeps under a bridge unless they choose to. No child does if our Child Protective Services can find them. Americans for the most part, enjoy the highest standard of living on the planet. Our poor have more wealth than the average upper-middle class resident of any third-world country.

Define the standard. How about this catch headline to influence the election? 275 Million Americans Live in Poverty! (When compared to Bill Gates)

If you don't like your standard of living you are free to move to another job, another city, go to school, and improve yourself in general. Before you retort on this, I came from a dirt poor family-my father was terminally Ill by the time I was 13 and my mother has been physically disabled since birth. I was on my own since 15; I have three college degrees and a six-figure salary; all done by ME.

What other place on earth can you do that? Poverty is a condition brought on by being lazy, not bothering to educate youself, and short-sightedness. Poverty does not cause crime-check your stats. Crime is caused when lazy people look for the easy way out-like sticking up a liquor store instead of washing some dishes.

We have our problems-but find a better country? You want poverty? Take a walk through Somolia and the tell me about 'poverty' in America.

Originally posted by build319



Sorry for my late response, I usually don't get a chance to even touch my computer outside of work anymore.

Anyway, as far as your husband. This is an unfortunate problem with living in a free market society. There will always be someone out there who is willing to do your jobs cheaper, better and faster. I myself have fallen victim to this and that is just the way things go. The key is to be able to make yourself an asset wherever you are and if you can't you find other avenues to supplement your income. You will probably find a place willing to pay more for doing something similar. Or you can go the independant route and start your own company.

Now second, I never said to work three jobs. Go to college and get a degree while trying to maintain a family. I know how difficult that is and I personally have trouble trying to maintain my job, start a company and be a good dad. But I keep my eyes on the prize. I know with all this hard work I will be able to spend more time with my son in the long run. But alas, I am straying far off topic. The point I was getting at, is that there are plenty of govt. programs out there which can help make up for some of these problems. I am a big fan of helping you to help yourself.

No job has unlimited security, this is just not the society we live in anymore. I work for a public utility and I don't think I have unlimited security. We constantly need to keep looking around the corner and find out whats best for us as an individual and make ourselves worth more than $7.15 per hour.

I think there is a small problem though. This isn't a free market. Otherwise, the person with a few more kids than us, wouldn't be willing to take that job for less, would they?

By the way, my husband drives about 100 miles a day to his job, and gets paid pretty good money, and thus, we can stay afloat without any gov't assistance...(going without healthcare of course). If we didn't have such strong feelings about how this system is destroying our country, I think he would be just driving ten miles a day (think of the gas we would save!!), for the jobs around here that pays half as much and well, we'd have our healthcare, our home, our food, our heat, ect, ect, .....more than we have now in other words.

This isn't a free market!! We need to acknowldge that fact, and start redirecting the influence that the gov't has already inserted into it in ways that will make us a free market again!! Like installing a living wage!

Originally posted by Sargon of Agade
If you don't like your standard of living you are free to move to another job, another city, go to school, and improve yourself in general. Before you retort on this, I came from a dirt poor family-my father was terminally Ill by the time I was 13 and my mother has been physically disabled since birth. I was on my own since 15; I have three college degrees and a six-figure salary; all done by ME.

What other place on earth can you do that? Poverty is a condition brought on by being lazy, not bothering to educate youself, and short-sightedness. Poverty does not cause crime-check your stats. Crime is caused when lazy people look for the easy way out-like sticking up a liquor store instead of washing some dishes.

We have our problems-but find a better country? You want poverty? Take a walk through Somolia and the tell me about 'poverty' in America.

THIS IS how I see it too!! BAD BAD me...BUT MY GOSH if anyone could whine and moan and MILK the systen is could have been me! I dont share this much, BUT 3 yrs ago 2 WEEKS after having our 2nd baby (by c-section I may add) my husband ran out on us...SO there I was left with a 2 week old and a 2 year old, morgage, NO JOB, no money NOTHING!!! IT was rough but I worked hard and I now run my own home based business and make pretty good $$ (Financially better off now than when I was married!!) I wanted to be HOME my kids, childcare was just too much for 2 kids...HONESTLY looking for government assistance never crossed my mind.....I GOT up and DID something!! I work HARD, tons of long nights when the kids were asleep...The 1st yr yes we lived WAY WAY WAY below poverty BUT I was smart about my money....and we were OK...

I had a friend who is in her late 40's (I'm 31) and Her husband and her are living like one paycheck BEHIND....BUT they WONT do anything to try and better their situation..Just whine and moan about being poor...BUT can't work extra hours...OMG!! SHE CAN't EVEN use coupons to help with her grocery bill!! They just want a handout....HOW sad is it when a MARRIED couple with NO kids both working ASKS their SINGLE MOther with 2 boys for some $$$....

I don't think you can compare a "poor" family in the US to those of other countries. Of course it is a million times better for our "poor" than many others in different areas. I do understand this situation though. Here in Michigan, the manufacturing industry allowed people to have and maintain well paying jobs without a college education. People could afford nice homes, 2 cars, college for their children etc. The manufacturing industry as well as the automotive industry is now in great trouble here. My entire family is/was all employed somehow related to the automotive business, from engineers, to dealership employees, to stamping plant supervisors, and workers. The amount of jobs that have been lost, and the number of plants that have closed is staggering. There have been more than 400 people lined up to apply for 5 job openings at a plant. Many of these people have years of experience. Some of these people have now had to take minium wage jobs just to survive. Some of these people are well into their 40s and 50s and college education just isnt going to help them very much at this point. Daycare costs are just ridiculous. If my husband and I did not work different shifts, we would be paying over 1000 a month in child care. As for programs, there was one point in my life where we actually did need some assistance to get by for a while. Well after being informed that the home you live in is too expensive, I believe at the time we were paying 650.00 a month! So they said they could not help us with very much, although they were willing to help with 200 dollars a month for groceries, but that was it. We managed to struggle through those rough months. As putting our home up for sale, or just moving to a very low income housing area was not an option we were willing to take. Not everyone has it extremely great or easy, and they are not all lazy. Even with a 2 parent household, childcare costs for those that need it, and insurance(At my company, if I had the insurance it would run me 210.00 per week!), and groceries, gas, etc...life can be living paycheck to paycheck, if you do not want the huge credit debt. I would love to charge a ton of things for myself and my family, but we choose to save for the big items we need. I have seen things decline in the economy here in Michigan, and it has a rolldown effect. Manufacturers lay off workers, workers can't buy cars, have maintenance done, spend at the mall, etc, so less cars are sold, so more workers are laid off. Its a terrible cycle. I see the elimination of the middle class on the horizon unfortunately.

ok, i don't like airing my dirty laundry, but here goes.. my husband and i have been married for 15 yrs, we have 3 wonderful children, and one income. we live in the country, buying our own home, and trying to make ends meet. we are one of those working poor. my husbands income ranges from 18,000-22,000 a yr in his business. for a family of 5. we don't eat out, go to movies, we shop at thrift stores, we don't have but 1 tv that we rent to own, we recieve food stamps(186.00)/mo. my children are on the medicaid program for health care. i am 2 semesters away from graduating college(haven't been back in 4 yrs.) with an accounting degree. up until 4 yrs ago i worked fulltime-and went to school, but the birth of my third child ended that. the cost of daycare in my area is 85.00/week. now, over the past 4 yrs our income has decreased due to the fact that jobs are much harder to get, the cost of supplies are rising, our gas bill went from less than 200/mo to almost 400+/mo. my husband is selfemployed. we pay taxes on his income everyear. we do not qualify for any govn. assistance other than food stamps/ medicaid. no college help, no daycare help, nothing. in fact my case worker told me to leave my husband and i could get all the help we need. we do not want to live off the govn. but even if i did get a job at min. wage, with the cost of daycare and gas i would be losing money. we live in a rural area that has no mass transit, very few close jobs, and alot of people losing their homes. we've come close. i'm tired of people saying we are lazy, and want something for free. i only accept food stamps because my children need to eat. most people do not understand the difficulty ppeople like us have. i'm not lazy, i'm just trying to make in a country that belittles me and keeps raising prices on everything.milk went from 2.89 to 4.99 in two months-thats unacceptable.

"we don't have but 1 tv that we rent to own"

That speaks volumes for the case of poverty in America. You rent a luxury item that could be purchased at a Wal-Mart for $79.


"we pay taxes on his income everyear"

OK, there is your first falsehood. If he earns $22K per year married with 3 kids, a quick look at your Federal 1040 says you have $0 tax liability and you qualify for between $3-4K Earned Income Tax credit every year.

For those of you who don't understand that concept it means that any Federal Income Tax withheld will be refunded AND you get a lump-sum check for $3-4K for taxes you didn't pay. Sucks to be poor in evil America isn't it-BTW I note you have a computer and internet access...



[edit on 13/10/04 by Sargon of Agade]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
A new study based on data from the Census Bureau from 2002, published by the nonpartisan Working Poor Families Project has found that one in every five U.S. jobs pays less than a poverty-level wage for a family of four. This brings the figure to39 million Americans, 20 million of which are children, whose families basically live paycheck to paycheck struggling to provide basic needs such as housing, food and child care...

The figures of 39 million Americans and the dependents...
is actually a THEORETICAL EXTRAPOLATION...which dosen't reflect reality!

sure, there a 20% of all income producing jobs/positions in the US which
are low paying,,,,
AND THATS WHY THE JOBS ARE VACANT...it takes all the illeagle aliens to fill those jobs

you better tell that Working Poor org. that puts out this fuzzy claptrap that
they need a more adroit spin-master

It's real simple people. As long as you don't have capital assets you will always be working for SOMEONE ELSE. A capital asset is something that accrues value.

As long as the poor continue to own items which depreciate in value they'll always ride the sinking ship.

Here's a revolutionary plan. One that'll actually work. Give each poor family of four a capital asset. Interest in a toll bridge, a chunk of gold, a stake in the student loan business (guaranteed 6.9% returns baby ). Teach 'em the intricacies of their asset and let them manage it. If they # up it's their own damn fault. But putting purchasing power in the pockets of the poor is much more revolutionary than managing their efforts to succeed via indoctrination and loans. Think about it.

Since it all comes down to responsibility, why not give the poor more of it?

Originally posted by dawnstar
I think there is a small problem though. This isn't a free market. Otherwise, the person with a few more kids than us, wouldn't be willing to take that job for less, would they?

I'm not sure what you consider your definition of Free Market to be, but the fact is about the job seekers qualifications and their ability to find a job. Yes jobs right now are hard to find so we have to work harder.

This actually reminds me of a neighbor of mine who was out of a job for a couple of years. He worked for BP in Cleveland until they merged with Amoco and he lost his job. Anyway, he was a smart guy but he let himself go to hell. His speaking qualities were worse than Bush at the 1st debate if you put a towel in his mouth and this is in candid conversation. He just didn’t have the communication skills to push himself further. He couldn’t find a job for years because he couldn’t speak to his interviewer properly. This was a highly intelligent and highly qualified person mind you. His lack of communication skills ruined his possible job prospects. Sadly, after years of unemployment, he was forced to sell his house. Luckily, he landed a job two weeks before he moved out and he’ll at least be able to get him and his family’s life back together. But there were govt. programs for him which he took advantage of eventually. He put both his children into college, even his daughter to an Ivy League school because of the govt. assistance.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that no one will hire you if you don’t look or seem qualified for the job. You can’t let your ego take control either. Sometimes when you move to a new company you may have to get paid less than the place you worked for last. It’s just making sure you aren’t going to be passed up and you make sure that you are the one that they are always going to for help, assistance, ideas or whatever. Right now where I work, I know I am worth more than what I am getting paid but I knew once I got in here I could work my way up. In the next rollout of positions to be available I am going to surpass people who have been here years longer than me because I worked my butt off to make sure I was going to move up and I proved myself to be more of an asset than those other people.

Originally posted by ktprktpr
It's real simple people. As long as you don't have capital assets you will always be working for SOMEONE ELSE. A capital asset is something that accrues value.

As long as the poor continue to own items which depreciate in value they'll always ride the sinking ship.

Here's a revolutionary plan. One that'll actually work. Give each poor family of four a capital asset. Interest in a toll bridge, a chunk of gold, a stake in the student loan business (guaranteed 6.9% returns baby ). Teach 'em the intricacies of their asset and let them manage it. If they # up it's their own damn fault. But putting purchasing power in the pockets of the poor is much more revolutionary than managing their efforts to succeed via indoctrination and loans. Think about it.

Since it all comes down to responsibility, why not give the poor more of it?

Actually, I think it should be a peice of land, with the right to use that land in any "legal" way they chose to earn money....weather that be to build a small shop and sell their handicrafts, or farm, or whatever.....without the necessary legal hassle that everyone else has until they reach a certain level. and, of course, they would have some financial assistance to buy seeds, building materials, or whatever.
People talk about how the poor of other countries are so much worse off, but, well, many of them do own a small piece of land, with little restriction as to what they do with it. Hence, they might have chickens running all over the place, and living on the eggs that are produced. We in american, well, in most places, this would be inappropriate. For many, operating a business of any type from the home would be considered not acceptable and lead to their eviction. Just like me taking more than two days off from work without a doctor's note was unacceptable to my boss when I was working...or the idea that one must have a car and phone to be considered for a job....or, that your child needs to have a doctor's note telling the school that the child's sprained foot might impede him from participating in gymclass, or, that you should be willing and able to work any shift they may need you on....and, well...the point I am making is that society and businesses demand that the poor in this country live to that type of standard of living. If they are now pointing to those third world countries and saying that that standard is adequate for us in america, well, they had better be willing to reduce their own expectations.

Build319

Ok, Mr. Goverment Programs, Why dont you try by listing them and then also show the reality of it. If you make "X" amount of money you are not qualified for them. I personally think its all BS, I own my own business, where I take no pay because the economy sucks and no one is spending, I also work a full time Job, and my wife works a full time job and before you start saying there should be no problem think about this. We earn a combined income of over $50k a year but live paycheck to paycheck and we still find ourselves short each month, we have pulled our daughter from daycare because we cannot afford it and still find ourselves coming up short $1000 each month. So why dont you explain to me, why or even how, the goverment can help me get out of the "whole" so My wife and I can be real parents that have real family values instead of teaching our daughter that we have no time, we have to work our asses off and thats just the way it is. Im sorry but I feel "Greed" is what killed the American economy, what happened to the world from when I was a kid which isnt that long ago , only being 34 years old to now. I remember a time where my father was able to support our family and pay all the bills and also have time to spend with his family (US) all on a measly $35k a year from UPS., Home prices are ridiculous, taxes are outrageous and education, thats a laugh... So, why dont you tell me and all the other people on ATS who fit this criteria on how the goverment programs are actually going to help us when we make more than the needs to qualified but not enough to get us by.


Just my thoughts!!!

post doubled, deleted second

[edit on 13-10-2004 by Justmytype]

we pay my husbands social security taxes evey year. sometimes the EIC covers it sometimes it doesn't. this year we owed a balance of 755.00 after EIC AND AS OF OCT 1, we now owe 2289.57. next year at tax time we will pay almost all of that off with the EIC, but it is still not enough. my husband is selfemployed. we pay "other" taxes everyyear, just not "income" taxes. we did not even get that tax rebate from bush, because we don't pay income taxes. yes, i have a computer (donated from a friend, very old) and i have internet acess because i only pay 4.95/mo. i gave myself this because i quit smoking(!!!) and i needed to take free classes on the net to keep up my education.alot of those business tax breaks, deductions, etc do not help my husbands business. i'm not complaining, we do not live beyond our means, and there are a few other factors that reduced our income in the past 4 yrs, but it has only been in the last year that we've needed foodstamps, because of a health problem my husband developed. what i'm saying is the complaining i hear about lazy, poor, live off the govn. people comes from ignorance. not everybody wants to stand in line for hours, then fill out form after form,be treated like your pitiful just to have to admit that just right now you can't feed your kids? that your husband has to do without heart meds so the light bill can get paid? and for what? on welfare, and very few these days qualify, you get a 150.00 a mo., jobtraing/school, free daycare,and foodstamps and medicaid for only up to 2 years.youyhave to work/school. now, for the working poor, i only qualified for foodstamps and partners for healthy children, a fed. program . hopefully i will be able to go back to work soon, and finish school, but we are not the spendthrifts and lazy people you talk about. i work hard everyday to raise my children to appreciate the little things in life, not what comes acroos on the tv. we do things together that cost nothing and have more fun than any trip to dineyword. i'm not looking for a handout, its just sometimes someone may need a hand up.

Well, Justmytype, I don't know how Government programs are going to help you, but I'd be happy to take a crack at it. First you begin with a good assesment of where your money is going and where it's coming from. Once you know that, you need a budget that you can both live on and dig yourself out of the hole.

You may need to make some lifestyle changes, but you can live quite well on $50K and if, as you say you own a small business too, there are likely a lot of things you could do to improve your tax situation.

If you need some help, send me a U2U and you can receive help from old Sargon, who is both an MBA and a Certified Financial Planner- no charge.

Lets not forget media image in all of this. It seems now value is placed on materialism. The low income housing with the big screen t.v. and dubbed out Lexus out front. For some a decent income with a nice job isn't good enough. The current voice of todays programing screams "you're nothing unless you have an expensive car and big screen t.v."