Broken Arrow Businessman Says President Obama Can Kiss His...

reply to post by Leapass


And I don't doubt that you worked your finger to the bones making sure that your customers were taken care of and that you took pride and integrity in what you were building and creating.

That's not the point though.

Did you have employees? If so, then they helped build your business.
Obviously you had patrons - they helped to build it.
You had a building, on a street, with electricity, running water, and other amenities... all the people who work(ed) in and on those things helped you out too.

It doesn't diminish your hard work at all that others helped to build the infrastructure that gave you a chance to thrive.

And, no, we all don't know "what he meant". We all, I guess, seem to be hearing what we want.

~Heff

Originally posted by jjkenobi
That's right people! If the United States government didn't exist there would be no roads or bridges on American soil! LMAO!!! And everyone would be completely helpless. We'd all be naked living in huts with no electricity either!

Also without Europe, America would not exist..

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by benrl

 

AND


reply to post by Indigo5

 

My argument, put as basically as can be is: They did give back by being successfully and paying taxes.

Your argument would have credibility if only the far right wasn't equating paying thier share of the taxes to theft.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
They have no less claim to OWNERSHIP of the nation's infrastructure than any other tax paying American does.

Agreed. And "they" have no right to demand to pay less for that infrastructure than any other tax paying American. It is "theft" when a Millionaire is required to pay taxes....It is "to big to fail" when they need a bailout....it is "theft" when the poor ask for help feeding thier children...it is "energy independance" when we give the Oil Industry Billions in tax payer subsidies every year despite thier profits...

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
That infrastructure? That's not the government's infrastructure, that's OUR infrastructure built with our taxes.

And this is the symantic shell game that no one questions

See...You just distinguished "Our" from "Government"

In a democracy...and most so in "our" American Democracy...the government is us...

Our Representitives...Our Tax Dollars...Our employees

Government = Ours

Our government is a pooling of resources and money to do those things that we can not do as individuals.

This is also what makes 'our" government not a business. If Government was a business then amassing profits is the goal of government, then we could look forward to a system designed to cut costs on unprofitable endeavors like feeding the poor or keeping the unproductive-unemployed elderly healthy...and maximize revenues by shifting the tax burden (revenues) to those who have the least fiscal "ownership" of our government and expanding that business via neo-conservative occupations of other countries.

Our government is not a business...and everyone should be scared sh**less of anyone that wants it to be.

Government is "us" pooling resources to do those things that we can not do ourselves as individuals.

Originally posted by LetsGoViking
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Originally posted by LetsGoViking ...nor did the Government build any roads...in the case that everyone missed that fact. The Government operates as a contractor or project manager to build the infrastructure, PRIVATE industry builds all that, with our money.

Not all all contradictory, I did say that the Fed acts as the contractor or project manager with our money (taxes). As far as your statement that the first tree wouldn't have been felled without the appropriations in place, not true at all. Most, if not all, of the early rail system was build and funded by private concerns because the ROI was there. They didn't need the Government; nor was the West opened by in place appropriations (unless you are going to counter with the Louisiana Purchase; the LP was to avoid future conflict with an Imperial Power (Russia) since the population was moving west and would have occupied it anyway. If you have doubts about this, ask Mexico who lost Texas due to expansion).

edit on 17-8-2012 by LetsGoViking because: (no reason given)

You should look into that a little closer. www.alternet.org... chs%27_assault_on_our_democracy The railroads were built on a scam where land was given to business men who knew the railroads would be built in there little spot. They then sold the land to people who wanted to be near the railroad. The people who were given land for free sold it to make a fortune they then used the money to bribe the railroad to come to there little spot. News paper man Harry Koch made a fortune being the propaganda man running the newspapers who made those people given land for free some of the richest people in the US by selling land for a outragious price. Harrys grandkids you might of heard of the Koch Brothers.

Originally posted by Indigo5
In a democracy...and most so in "our" American Democracy...the government is us...

Our Representitives...Our Tax Dollars...Our employees

Government = Ours

Wait, were you serious?

1. America's government isn't a democracy. It is a republic. Used to a representative republic, but those representatives long ago stopped representing anything but themselves and their cronies. The vast majority of national level "representatives" (:lol are among the wealthiest people and from the wealthiest families in this nation. Most of them, in fact, are from political family dynasties. "Our Representatives" my butt!

2. If they were "our employees", then they would have all been fired long, long ago. Have you seen Congress' approval rating? Would any employee retain their job if they had a 12% job satisfaction report from their bosses?

3. Taxes... *sigh* The wealthy and the middle class pay more than their "fair share" of taxes in the US. By virtually any metric aside from plain, old, spitefullness, they pay more than the avergae. More in overall dollars, a higher percentage of their income, etc. Look, I get it... the coyote who has no rabbit in front of him wants the whole rabbit his neighbor has. It is called greed and it is just as prevalent in the lower income classes as it is in the upper income classes, only in the lower it usually accompanies envy. That doesn't mean it is in any way defensible or justifiable.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Leapass

 

And I don't doubt that you worked your finger to the bones making sure that your customers were taken care of and that you took pride and integrity in what you were building and creating.

That's not the point though.

Did you have employees? If so, then they helped build your business.
Obviously you had patrons - they helped to build it.
You had a building, on a street, with electricity, running water, and other amenities... all the people who work(ed) in and on those things helped you out too.

It doesn't diminish your hard work at all that others helped to build the infrastructure that gave you a chance to thrive.

And, no, we all don't know "what he meant". We all, I guess, seem to be hearing what we want.

~Heff

edit on 8/17/12 by Hefficide because: long day - typos are to be expected!

Exactly. We all know that Obama's helper comments were only meant for minorities--just like Biden's chained-up remarks were only applicable to the descendants of slaves in his audience. Man, I can't believe how literal & skewed people can be!

Assets?
Aunt?

Originally posted by burdman30ott6

Originally posted by Indigo5
In a democracy...and most so in "our" American Democracy...the government is us...

Our Representitives...Our Tax Dollars...Our employees

Government = Ours

Wait, were you serious?

Those who lack confidence in thier claims substitute emoticons.

House of Representitives
Elections to the House of Representatives are held every two years, in even-numbered years. Representatives serve two-year terms and all 435 voting seats come up for election at once.

Senate:
A Senator holds his/her seat for six years, but elections are held every two years. This process divides the Senate into three groups, resulting in the reelection of one of the three groups (one-third of the Senate) every two years.

President:
Every four years..

Don't like it? Educate yourself. Vote. Participate...but like it or not, the reality remains YES those politicians are hired by "US"......It is by intent that YOUR opinion and MINE are not the deciding factor, those folks aren't hired by YOU or ME, but US...everyone.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
If they were "our employees", then they would have all been fired long, long ago. Have you seen Congress' approval rating? Would any employee retain their job if they had a 12% job satisfaction report from their bosses?

See above for a breakdown how often you get the chance to fire them.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
3. Taxes... *sigh* The wealthy and the middle class pay more than their "fair share" of taxes in the US. By virtually any metric aside from plain, old, spitefullness, they pay more than the avergae. More in overall dollars, a higher percentage of their income, etc.

This bit of nonsense should be put to music that the right wing zealots can sing to.

Once you get done reading about how much Federal "Income" tax the top 5% of earners in the USA pay and how much the bottom 95% pay...

Then take that bottom 95%...roughly 300 Million people...and add the sales tax they pay everytime those 300 Million folks buy anything, excise tax, real estate and rental taxes, state and local taxes (where most of the wealthy retreat to geographies with no state tax) etc. etc. etc. PLUS PAYROLL tax on those 300 million and add that into the equation.

See how that math works out for you...You don't have to be a math wiz to understand that 300 people each buying groceries will pay more total in taxes than 15 folks each buying groceries. Now expand that to every single purchase, plus real estate, payroll, state and local etc. etc.

The dishonesty in that rhetoric is offensive.

The Wealthiest 5% pay an insanely low fraction of the OVERALL tax burden in this country.

America's government isn't a democracy. It is a republic. Used to a representative republic, but those representatives long ago stopped representing anything but themselves and their cronies.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I couldn't agree with you more, though I think we may have slipped over the line from Republic to Corptocracy. I do see a couple of simple solutions though:

1. Term Limits - 3 for Representatives, 2 for the Senate
   
2. Remove the "human" rights protections from Corporations
   
3. remove the Income Tax and replace it with either a straight flat tax (no deductions) or a consumption tax
   

This would stop the power from aggregating over time and would neuter most corporations politically. It also removes the primary tool for dispensing political favors, tax loop holes.

That's just my 2 cents....

reply to post by Indigo5


I used emoticons because I honestly was sitting here chuckling over the fact that you apparently believe we are still a democracy. IF (and that is, at this time, an unrealistic 'if') it was an actual representative democracy, the barriers preventing anyone outside of the establishment from successfully running in an election wouldn't exist. As it now stands, however, you either MUST have the support of the major PACs and parties supported by them or you MUST have millions of your own dollars to pay for the campaigning. This is true even in regards to most state level elections now.

It is not feasible for someone from the outside, without the pedigreee and without the connections, to successfully campaign for an office. The system is set up in such a way that voter apathy, resulting dissatisfaction with the system and with the visable candidates, doesn't hurt the two party candidates in any way. You have made the claim, I challenge you to prove it now. Name some elected politcians in D.C. who have reached their status working outside of the two parties and without having already been among the aristrocratic class.

ETA: I did some of your homework for you, Indigo5. Here is a link to the 2010 net worth of the primary players in the 3 branches. LINK I downloaded the CSV file from that page and sorted it by individual politician's averages (min versus max). I found that out of 660 listed, 545 of them have an average net worth greater than the average American homeowner's net worth in 2010 ($175,000 per THIS LINK ).
In other words, 83% of the politicians in Washington DC enjoy a net worth higher than the average American.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


Appreciate the research. Found the same doc this afternoon, but have been slow to respond..busy day at work.

Vermont has occasionally sent the odd socialist to congress, and there are the occasional independants like Lieberman and Sanders.

But your criteria is broader than that?....Pedigree and wealth. I would argue in that regard we have NEVER been a democracy by your standard...going back to our founding. But our founding fathers were still gentleman farmers.

It could be argued that the modern day presidents are just modern day capitalists as were our "gentleman farmer" founding fathers? Same thing different times?

Or is it wealth that offends? Again...founding fathers and early Presidents?

Are you aware that our current President had the lowest net worth at election than any President in the past half century? Since Truman?

Or that Mitt Romney has a net worth greater than the past 10 Presidents net worth combined?..Another trivia question...which President had the greatest net worth at a Half Billion dollars? The same POTUS that answers your question about "Independants" that follows.

affiliation/independance?......

Can you name the ONLY "Independant" President in US History?

...

It was our first President, George Washington...and it was before the popular vote, pure electoral college...no general vote. And the runner up? Landed as Vice-President, John Adams.

He was the first and last "independant" POTUS.

I will hope for a non-partisan reflection of what that tells us about our democracy...what it was and what it is?

I understand your discontent, I share it...but at the same time I also accept blame. The state of our democracy...corrupt, speeding toward plutocracy...is nothing but what the founders intended, a government by the people. We created this mess through apathy and ignorance, we created Fox News and MSNBC...niether of which would exist if they weren't raking in the viewers...it is time we own that and fight for the government we deserve...our founding fathers gave us all the tools to do so....we can decide who is idealogically correct or appropriately fiscally conservative later? It is the APATHY and IGNORANCE and the bias media that is fertilized by it that is killing our democracy. Fix that and a little new blood and campaign finance reform ( which both parties oppose despite thier rhetoric )...and we can have a bloodless second revolution.

A man can dream.....

reply to post by Indigo5


Cheers for a speech well said!

Cheers!

reply to post by LetsGoViking


Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

Your tagline...we need commoners with the heart of Hannibal to enter the political arena and thier virtue can be tempered by the populace.

reply to post by neo96


If they took any government tax deductions rebates credits or whatever then no they did not build thier business alone. even taking advantage of tax laws would be government helping them.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by Indigo5

 

I used emoticons because I honestly was sitting here chuckling over the fact that you apparently believe we are still a democracy. IF (and that is, at this time, an unrealistic 'if') it was an actual representative democracy, the barriers preventing anyone outside of the establishment from successfully running in an election wouldn't exist. As it now stands, however, you either MUST have the support of the major PACs and parties supported by them or you MUST have millions of your own dollars to pay for the campaigning. This is true even in regards to most state level elections now.

It is not feasible for someone from the outside, without the pedigreee and without the connections, to successfully campaign for an office. The system is set up in such a way that voter apathy, resulting dissatisfaction with the system and with the visable candidates, doesn't hurt the two party candidates in any way. You have made the claim, I challenge you to prove it now. Name some elected politcians in D.C. who have reached their status working outside of the two parties and without having already been among the aristrocratic class.

ETA: I did some of your homework for you, Indigo5. Here is a link to the 2010 net worth of the primary players in the 3 branches. LINK I downloaded the CSV file from that page and sorted it by individual politician's averages (min versus max). I found that out of 660 listed, 545 of them have an average net worth greater than the average American homeowner's net worth in 2010 ($175,000 per THIS LINK ).
In other words, 83% of the politicians in Washington DC enjoy a net worth higher than the average American.

edit on 17-8-2012 by burdman30ott6 because: (no reason given)

blue blood royalty.

reply to post by Indigo5


Indigo, indeed. While I am just one of the lower class in this game, I am currently working on a draft bill to start restoring some of our basic liberties. While I am not confident that it will ever make it to the President's desk, it will, perhaps, help provide a rallying point for freedom. Not freedom as the current political players define it, but rather Freedom as our Founding Father's defined it.

Everyone should avail themselves of their right to submit bills; do the homework on how to do it, get to know your local Congress critter and make a fighting stand!