I cannot believe what is being said about veterans. If that is true then the whole of the Pentagon are terrorist and any generals on the Presidents staff are as well. If it went that far then all the American people can say is I am not joining any service. Then we shall see if what is said about the veterans is correct or not.

Originally posted by MightyPenfriend
I have nothing but respect for any military man, but no matter how you look at things, you were a pawn in a game, serving the interests of a power that wasn't out to improve humanity.

Negative, you do not understand. The concept of national defense cannot be realized without a little national offense. To have a robust defense one must have wars in which to participate to hone the skills, train the leaders and to test the newest technology.

You see the small wars in which we engage as "aggression" and "profiteering" for the mighty military industrial complex. In a way you are correct - certainly these entities stand to gain a great deal; however, to discount the net benefit to the nation for their profiteering (that is what companies do BTW - we don't fault the fish for swimming) is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The water is dirty and no one likes having dirty water around but the baby is our future.

I (and the others in the profession of arms) see them as live fire training for our baby so that we can have competent Generals and competent Colonel's should for some reason the US mainland itself come under threat. Leaders are born in some certain sense but the tactics and techniques of modern warfare are a darn cite more complicated than the "get on line load and fire" of our minute man past. It takes a lifetime of professional schooling interspersed with some live action training (limited warfare or COIN etc.) to make a good leader.

Should we just sit around and hope the new bombs work like they did on the target dummies? Or hope that General Brown does as well with real Soldiers as he does with the flags on a map? The small military we maintain now will be but the nucleus of the larger force should we face all out threat to our nation. A Captain will find himself a LTC quickly and given a formation of draftees and newly minted LT's to execute his mission. Thank god at least he's seen someone get in a firefight before...or we'll get a lot of young men and women killed while he learns.

So perhaps pawn in a game is true maybe in a way but we certainly disagree who the chess master really is. You think it’s the military profiteers. I think they are just the Kings and Queens, they are still on the board - the real player is national defense.

It is likely we will never agree so let’s not derail this here. National defense is a very complicated thing - people spend their whole careers in its study and still get things wrong.

I doubt some arm chair generals or in my case Special Forces Major are not going to be able to get a good discussion going. What I do know is that an Army that never fights is not much of an Army at all.

All hat - no cowboy as they say where I am from...

The Chinese Army is huge but not one of its Generals has been in a shooting war of any scope - they will make mistakes that will cost millions of lives when they do... Perhaps they are cool with that being there are a billion Chinese. I don't think our Generals have that same view nor do our public. So while sometimes not understood by the populace we fight little wars so our leaders don't make those mistakes.

Originally posted by MightyPenfriend
You wanted to be a soldier. You wanted the action. You wanted to be the best. Some people are born warriors. I respect that. I understand that.

But basically you are saying that you did stuff because you wanted to. That makes you part of the problem.

Again, "problem" is subjective I'd say being a veteran SF Company Commander and Team Leader I think I solved problems not caused them.

I commanded a small FOB in a province in Afghanistan - we vaccinated the population, fed children, doctors performed surgery on cleft palates, we built a girls school, a women’s clinic, I personally even helped them with their goat husbandry (increasing live birth rates and milk production) since I grew up with goats. We trained Soldiers and police forces so they could do for themselves when we leave.

Question - if my operators had not volunteered who would fight for those young women... We in SF fight for those who won't or can't fight for themselves. The smile on the girl’s faces on their first day of school was an amazing thing to see. I am no hero - I need no thanks nor medals that smile was enough for me.

Again, while wee may never agree who the chess master is...

I am not a pawn I'd say I was more of a Knight or Rook - not being religious I'll opt out of the Bishop. :wink:

The roman army wasn't allowed into the city...

I just wanted to say how sorry I am that veterans go through this in the US.

I served alongside some of your best in the war on terror (I was in the Stan in 01), and the operators I worked with were exceptional.

We luckily have the opposite here - veterans are still viewed with a certain degree of respect, and are acknowledged for their service.

Yes, we have our anti-war people who take their frustration out on the men who put boots on the ground, instead of directing it towards the government which put us there; but there's no explaining to people with less than 2 brain cells to rub together.

I wish you all the best - might be an idea to come to Australia Chicks dig the American accent (especially a good southern one)!

I am a Veteran. Though I served in peace time, my pride and allegiance remains the same to my brothers and sisters. Soldiers are trained to do things that no one would want to do. The fact that the government would try to turn us out and villify us is conceivable.

The first rule of assasination is kill the assasin. It would be of benefit to the government to make the public leary of those trained in combat. Only those combat trained can fight an opposition loyal to a rogue government.

I am not suggesting a rising against our government, but I am suggesting vigilence as this is a very scary situation.

I hope that if or when things bottom out, that the citizens' army (all branches of the armed forces) protects it's citizens and constitution, not a self serving government.


God bless us all

I too am an 0311 and a veteran. Semper Fi.

With that, vets make some simple mistakes that government and media no longer like - we don't assimilate well. Meaning, it's great to have our brothers-in-arms and to be proud and patriotic, but just don't rub everyone's face in it. Once you're a civilian, be a civilian. Stop reliving the past glory days of the military and assimilate into society. I know with employers they worry they'll have some hyper-ass vet reliving the good old days rather than relating to the civilian world at-large; you're an outcast in the "real world" if you do that and you'll find you are left only with other vets of the same mental state to confide in.

I know people will hate this message, but it's true. Not many politicians or media types are vets, they don't relate to us so they only like us to forward their agendas. If you want a job, you want money, you want to win - drop the vet antics and move on. You know who you are, who cares what others think.

ETA: An example. I didn't know my dad was a Vietnam vet until I was 18 and about a month away from joining the USMC. He didn't tell anyone because he wanted a job and wanted to provide for his family in a working environment where no one else was a vet -- it worked. He hid his secret well.

Originally posted by Jason88
I know people will hate this message, but it's true. Not many politicians or media types are vets, they don't relate to us so they only like us to forward their agendas. If you want a job, you want money, you want to win - drop the vet antics and move on. You know who you are, who cares what others think.

Actually, when speaking at last Veterans Day I covered the same thing.

Veteran's are a dying breed; After WWII for several years perhaps 20 or more it was more likely than not every family had a Veteran in the home if not then certainly they had one at extended family gatherings. Later the frequency has dwindled to what it is today.

We only enlist and commission about 120k (give or take a few K) total new service members per year in all the services In a population of about 310 million chances are that kids today not only don't have a veteran in the family they don't know any of their friends who have one in theirs either. They may not even have one in the neighborhood.

Used to be being a veteran on a job application was a good thing - now it’s something people just don't understand. I interviewed for a job as a Probation Officer - entry level job. Now understand I have 24 years in the Army retired as a Major and had a badge and credentials of a counterintelligence agent. I'm thinking this will be a cake walk I'll get hired no problem....

I Commanded 5 SF teams in combat with combined budgets of millions of dollars capturing and detaining terrorists and insurgents while managing all those people and equipment. I think I can keep track of a few parolees with minimal loss of life and equipment.

She says, yeah my uncle Jimmy was in Vietnam I think he was a gunner of some kind. She then asked me if I ever killed anyone...

I said - are you kidding this is your question about my 24 years of intelligence, surveillance, investigation operational skills?

She then asked if I got a benefits package since I was retired... (again my jaw drops a little...)

Since it was going nowhere I said yea actually I get paid more in my retirement than you offer as a salary for this job. She was pissin me off. Basically she was asking why I needed a job if I already got a retirement from the Army. I looked up her salary after the interview my Major's retirement pay was actually more than she makes as well.

From this interview I gathered that most people generally have no idea what the difference is between a Major and a Sergeant is nor do they consider any of my 24 years relevant. She was more concerned about my college GPA from 15 years ago... Anyway they hired a new college grad for the job - I’m certain a degree in social work is right up there with interrogating and hunting down terrorists in skill level. I hear that getting good grades in school is hard with all that pesky shooting going on in colleges nowdays.

Originally posted by Jason88
Anyways, good luck! Shoot for the moon, Major!

Actually, I own a dairy that is doing very well - I hired a live in manager and mostly I just get in the way so I thought I'd look for something to do. I ended up getting hired to work fraud investigations for Health and Human Services - dealing with people who mistreat geriatrics in homes.

I recently quit that position because they won't let me concealed carry in the state vehicle even to and from locations. I don't need the money - I pay myself from the dairy with my 04 retired pay I am fine. Other than boredom that is...

I think I'll run for Sherriff in 2016 I need to get to know more of the county.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by Jason88

Used to be being a veteran on a job application was a good thing - now it’s something people just don't understand. I interviewed for a job as a Probation Officer - entry level job. Now understand I have 24 years in the Army retired as a Major and had a badge and credentials of a counterintelligence agent. I'm thinking this will be a cake walk I'll get hired no problem....

I Commanded 5 SF teams in combat with combined budgets of millions of dollars capturing and detaining terrorists and insurgents while managing all those people and equipment. I think I can keep track of a few parolees with minimal loss of life and equipment.

Anyway they hired a new college grad for the job - I’m certain a degree in social work is right up there with interrogating and hunting down terrorists in skill level. I hear that getting good grades in school is hard with all that pesky shooting going on in colleges nowdays.

edit on 17/8/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)

Problem is the general public do not, and will not ever understand the difference between regular and SF soldiers.

I'm sure it's the same in the US - but I spent almost 2 years of continual training before I was handed my green beret. I had studied law at university, and I can confidently say the level of intelligence (both practical and book smart) was higher in my regiment than in my uni course.

For all servicemen, the skill-sets we receive through our service are looked over, which is a shame - employers no longer seem to care about dedication, work ethic, morals or length of service in previous employment.

Originally posted by ExCommando
Problem is the general public do not, and will not ever understand the difference between regular and SF soldiers.

I agree I actually had complete the Q course twice I think totaled almost 30 months of training for both combined. Once when I was enlisted as an SF Engineer then latter after I had earned a commission I had to take the course again. Different content of course for officers but the same intensity I assure you - in fact one could say my status as a prior grad warranted special attention from the good NCO's in charge.

Originally posted by ExCommando
I had studied law at university, and I can confidently say the level of intelligence (both practical and book smart) was higher in my regiment than in my uni course.

For all servicemen, the skill-sets we receive through our service are looked over, which is a shame - employers no longer seem to care about dedication, work ethic, morals or length of service in previous employment.

Never had an Aussie in my exchange programs we had a guy from British SAS on our Company Staff team in an exchange program for a tour. We just called him Jock - which is funny to us but common I guess there for a Scott.

It was funny to us because jock in the US is an athlete and this guy smoked like the Marlboro man and had a gut... However, as he proved more than once to me - How did he put it... lapping that very hairy belly for effect, then stubbing out his smoke> "Major, I am 14 stone of British fighting fury!" before any run. Indeed he was he could out run me that's for sure. He was a machine I swear it - not human. I hate losing...

I did an exchange in England teaching R2I – interrogation and R2I are sort of my specialty. Met plenty of Aussies in country though (one hot female Captain BTW) but only in passing. Decent lads all of them.... Know all the ways to make alcohol in a can that's for sure.

My Soldiers represented the most intelligent and capable in the military. Very sought after go getters that strive to be the best at whatever they do - any company would love to employ them. I’d put my Sergeant E5 medic up against any civilian doctor in a contest of emergency trauma management any day. I doubt many ER docs have as much experience with GSW as he did. My intelligence Sergeant spoke 4 languages fairly fluently, played the cello like a pro and did calculus to "relax".

Most were from working middle class America and one was even a Lawyer who gave up his practice to enlist for about 30% of what he made so he could serve after 9/11 and is now a career Soldier - enlisted too BTW not an officer (though he certainly could be) and he has a JD. Some were from poor or humble beginnings for sure - the sons of rural poor to include myself; none felt they were limited to the military - all were happy to be there making a difference. Not a one considered himself a victim/pawn or wanted anyone's sympathy.

Hardly a group of steely eyed killers civilians think we are - we had a weekly Dungeons and Dragons game in the compound FFS; how geeky is that?

I'm kind of in the same boat...I did inflight refueling for six years in the Air Force. Not exactly a market for that in the civilian world. Luckily I got a job with the railroad. But we know who we are. I know I flew over 200 combat and combat support missions with over 1000 flight hours into Iraq and Afghanistan and I won't let ANYBODY say anything bad about the veterans of this nation. We ARE the reason this country has the freedom it enjoys today.

Originally posted by jacobe001
As a veteran myself, I had to chuckle at your post.
It seems to me, the more wars we get involved in, the more rights and freedom we loose everyday.

That's because oppression and misuse of military power to gain illicit access to resources is immoral and criminal. Julian Assange of Wikileaks exposed the truth and now they want to hang him for it over a BS charge fabricated to extradite him.

You have no idea how much the US is hated all over the world for telling others what to do and how to act. It treats allies as subordinates. Even its own western allies hate it, but remain polite. Of course, you have to read the foreign press and readers comments to know this and not watch or read news where they wave an American flag every 5 seconds.

America uses the words freedom, liberty, equality and prosperity all too often as a trademark. Too bad more and more people around the globe are no longer buying it.