Who are these people on the new world?

Hi Deetermined

Paradise is a very good and deep subject for many Christians. The first thing that entered my mind was the following question. Where is this paradise which is only mentioned three times in the KJV?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

By this I am led to understand that Paradise in none other than the New Jerusalem. The only tree of life that I am aware of is in New Jerusalem. It was denied Adam and Eve in the Gan Eden here on this earth. If that is correct then this tree of life is the New Jerusalem.

When the thief on the cross next to Jesus declared his guilt to the world, Jesus then told him –
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now if I am correct then it was that day of the crucifixion that the righteous captives who were in Sheol were then placed in the New Jerusalem. This, I believe, is the first group of people to enter the New City of God. So in effect that third heaven is where New Jerusalem is today and is the paradise of God.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

To understand that a little more it should be understood that Jesus was not unconscious or as the people then understood death. I believe that Jesus was every bit aware of all things as his body perished. If He was in the heart of the earth (Sheol) three days and three nights then he must have resurrected immediately after being placed in the tomb.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. I realize that there are many Christians who are taught that Jesus was crucified on good Friday and rose on Sunday but that is not a true account of the crucifixion. Jesus was three complete days and nights in the tomb.

What has all of this to do with paradise? If paradise is in New Jerusalem (tree of life) then New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of God that Jesus told us about when He said that in His Father’s house are many mansions and that He would go and prepare a place for us.

Most Christians believe that there will come a rapture or as I understand it to mean a gathering of the righteous from this earth just prior to the 2nd advent of Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In other words the people who are in this gathering will join that first group of people that were resurrected from Sheol when the Kingdom of God was established. But note that it confirms that those who are gathered will enter the Kingdom of God which is in the air.

This is why I believe the New Jerusalem which Isaiah and John spoke about was introduced to mankind at the death of Christ and is the same as the Kingdom of God. This is when men and women were allowed to resurrect into a celestial being. Now as the rapture takes place, then those who are gathered will also go directly to Paradise (New Jerusalem) which is in the air. This New Jerusalem is the same New Jerusalem that John saw coming down to the new world. I believe that the entire family of God will be in that city as it comes upon the new earth. So in effect Paradise (Abraham;s Bosom) has been moved from Sheol to New Jerusalem and Hell has enlarger itself. Hell remains in Sheol.

Now Deteermined, I am not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination and I want you to understand that these are just my own opinions. I guess I am so determined to understand just where these little kids are that were murdered that I may be over zealous. You now see how one little word (paradise) can involve a whole line of theology. What do you think?

reply to post by Seede


I imagine this is referring to the coming transition of humanity into a higher consciousness. Those that fail to do so will live as mankind does now. They will have our current lifespan of 120 years give or take.

The new humanity will form out of pure consciousness and establish itself in a region of earth not habited by the remnants of mankind. Why will higher dimensional beings live alongside others who are not? Well I think they will be transitioning the planet into a higher vibrational field and so have a cross road form until those who live within this realm die and slowly are reborn into the new reality.

The "city" coming from heaven is referring to the new home for higher consciousness forming from pure thought, rebuilding the world through thought as the old last was destroyed.

like before, and the cycle repeats. New creation, mankind as the seed of life. The tree of life is well referenced online, try reading up on that since it is an extensive subject to try and convey. Basically it is the order of he universe and the force of life.

Just my thought. Just a guess.

reply to post by Seede


I think those are excellent points and I have to agree with you.

As for the murdered children or aborted babies that you mentioned earlier, a pastor that I know who had a near death experience approximately 40 years ago says they are all living in what we know to be heaven. Some of his other descriptions of heaven are also phenomenal.

I think it's pretty safe to say, based on the story of those who wandered in the desert that the age of accountability is most likely 20.

Numbers 14:28-31

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.

30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

The new humanity will form out of pure consciousness and establish itself in a region of earth not habited by the remnants of mankind. Why will higher dimensional beings live alongside others who are not? Well I think they will be transitioning the planet into a higher vibrational field and so have a cross road form until those who live within this realm die and slowly are reborn into the new reality.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


BIHOTZ

You have given me a lot to digest and am still working on it. Need some help in what you are referencing.
How can pure consciousness establish itself on this earth. Would it not have to have a form or body? You say that these higher dimensional beings live alongside lower dimensional beings. How is this brought about in your opinion? Would not there have to be transcending factors involved?? I am really confused.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
There are no people outside the City.
The way to take the last couple of chapters of Revelation is to understand that "the City" is now everything there is.
So "outside the City" = "non-existent".
Evildoers cannot be continuing to live "outside the City", because they have already been "thrown into the lake of fire" in ch20- which is another way of saying that they have ceased to exist.
The inhabitants of the City are those "whose names have been written in the book of life".
Those who are "allowed to enter the city" are not a different group- they are the inhabitants again. "Entering the City" just means becoming part of it. We are not meant to understand that they are living outside and going in and out.
For the last two chapters of Revelation, there is only one place - the City- where people are living, and only one group of people living there.

I'll betcha karma is still a real biatch though for the evil doers, for their children and their children's children, unless someone among their line breaks the cycle of wickedness.

I like the idea that no one, not the Pope or the Patriarch of the Rothschild dynasty, or Dick Cheney or Bush Jr. or Sr. can get a special "deal" or special consideration ie: that God's righteous judgement is the ultimate equalizer when we each come before the Lord for an accounting of what we've done or been involved in, except for those with washed robes of course since their sins have already been blotted out.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Seede
Whatever the truth is, why is Christianity so divided and how can people get on the same page (so to speak)?

Just turn to the last page of the Bible, and have mercy on all the stupid Christians who are afraid to do that (waiting first for all the death and destruction to reign down upon us all).

edit on 18-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: typo

I have been really enjoying your work as of late Man. However, I cannot for the life of me understand this harsh judgement.

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe these Christians you have just labeled are simply unforgiven?

Of course they are! You just judged them?

How then should your own inheritance be weighed?

reply to post by DISRAELI

TextThere are no people outside the City. The way to take the last couple of chapters of Revelation is to understand that "the City" is now everything there is. So "outside the City" = "non-existent".

DIsraeli

If Revelations were the only scriptures that we had in referencing New Jerusalem then I might agree somewhat with you - but Revelations is not the only scriptures that describe these people out side of the city.

Take into account the following verses----
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

This pertains to the same New Jerusalem that John describes in his Revelations account. If all of this present world is destroyed (as you admit) and nothing exists except the city and new heaven and earth then why does Isaiah tell us that child will be allowed to live 100 years and die? And how are there sinners in the new earth? The rest of the chapter 65 then describes the new earth and the people who live on it.

Looking at Isaiah the 66th chapter it reads --

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:

I understand that there will be flesh on this new earth and that flesh will be allowed 100 years to live and then die. These people will be able to look upon the lake of fire and see those who are in that lake of fire.

Who are these people?

reply to post by Seede


I'm a Christain...but I don't understand something...

You made sure to point out that you were using a Kjv 1611.

What I've been taught is that no man can " change " the bible...we're not suppose to, but I'm sure some have.

Anyways..why would your bible differ from king James bible for example? If someone did find the word of god changed from the original wouldn't we know it ?

Are you saying that different bibles tell different facts? I'm just really curious about this.."I hope you take it no other way. There is nooooo sarcasism coming from my questions.

I've always used a king James ...am I reading history that's not true?

You made sure to point out that you were using a Kjv 1611. What I've been taught is that no man can " change " the bible...we're not suppose to, but I'm sure some have.

reply to post by tracehd1


tracehd1

The reason I always cite the bible that I use is simply that there are word changes in various bibles. Unfortunately there are different meanings which come from word change. There are basically two sets of manuscripts which are used in our new testament alone. Without creating a lot of argument as to which is the best let me give you an example.

In your KJV turn to Acts 8:37 -- Act 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Now look in the New International Version and try to find Acts 8:37 - You will not find it at all. This bible skips from Chapter 8:36 to 8:38 -- The translators refuse to acknowledge that particular description of baptism and faith.

Now turn to Colossians 1:14 -- Col 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins".

Now look in the same New International Version and see what the translators left out. -- Colossians 1:14 -- " in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins". You see that they have left out "through His blood" --

In my brief and short look at 34 different bibles I counted 18 which denies "through His blood" -- These 18 bibles are what I call corrupt and I never pick one up. If you ever look at another bible, simply look at Colossians 1:14 and Acts 8:37 and that will tell you just about which manuscripts they used in that work. If that bible refuses to acknowledge that your redemption is "through His blood" then it is not true Christianity. There are many many more examples but that alone is a major key in detecting corrupt manuscripts.

I also use the 1560 Geneva Bible. It agrees word for word with over 90% of the KJV but has the marginal notes which gives me much more insight. It also has the apocrypha which was in the original 1611 KJV. It is printed in the old English and for some people it is too difficult to read. The 1560 Geneva bible is almost a identical new testament of Tyndale who translated the first new testament in 1526 to the English language. The reason I use the Geneva bible is that Tyndale translated only the new testament and not the complete bible. So in effect the 1611 KJV is a most accurate print of Tyndale to Geneva to KJV and I believe to be the mot beautiful and accurate to English. That is my own preference and that is why I always declare which manuscripts that I study from.

The old testament has been practically tamper proof in comparison to the new testament. The KJV uses the Masoretic text which is the Hebrew and Aramaic and is sanctioned by the Jewish authors. I do not use any other in the old testament although some bibles use the Greek Septuagint old testament. I feel that the old testament belongs to the rightful owners who are more qualified than Christians to determine the manuscripts and they have been the guards for centuries.

Why do people change? People change for several reasons. Some will change words and meanings in order to obtain copy rights to that literature and then sell their products to the unaware Christian. Some change the scriptures to fit into their doctrines and build a church base on that change. Jehovah Witness did this very thing. The JW's at one time used the KJV and then to fit their doctrine they wrote their own version with many many verse and word changes. They then called it the New World Translation. This bible also leaves Acts 8:37 out of print and erases Col 1:14 "through His blood." It is one of the most corrupt pieces of literature in print.

That can give you a little idea of why I always state who I am before I discuss theology with anyone. All you have to say is that you are a KJV and most usurpers will know right away just who you are. Thanks for your interest.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Those who keep God's commandments through the Millennium will be the ones who enter into the gates of the New Jerusalem.

edit on 16-8-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

What happens to the rest of us before the millennium since none of us can keep God's commandments perfectly?

reply to post by blockhead


Only God knows for sure, but I think sincere repentance for not being able to keep God's commandments perfectly is a good place to start.

What happens to the rest of us before the millennium since none of us can keep God's commandments perfectly?

reply to post by blockhead


blockhead

Now that is a good thought. Bet hardly anyone thought of that before. If Jesus comes again for this 1,000 years reign, does that mean that there will not be any more forgiveness of sin? After all if Jesus is here on this earth then there won't be any excuse to have a sin forgiven by the church or anyone else would there? Would that revert back to the Law then?

Would that kind of revert back to everyone seeing the Lord and no more doubting His being real or a fable? After all every human in heaven and on earth would see Him and know Him so there would be no more excuses for saying that I don't believe. Wouldn't everyone automatically believe after they see Jesus?

Originally posted by Seede

 

Is there a conspiracy here in the Christian clergy? Why would the churches not want to tell the people all about the new heaven and new earth that is promised in their scriptures? Would it be because those who are in power do not understand or is it that they do not want you to know the truth? What do you think?

Seede, as you know already I view things from a different perspective than you do. But here you are asking about a conspiracy of the clergy. Put yourself in their shoes. Whatever companies or branch of government you work for you try to do a good job for your employer, he feeds you, he rewards you, etc. Why would you expect anything different from people 2000 years ago?

The employer of the clergy was the Church and they had a lot of power.

Let me just say this: God gave man the ability to write, to speak, to hear, and to think freely. Having said that, please understand: The smartest, most scholarly and intellectual people on the planet; combined the the world's best technology, couldn't distort God's message. God is going to get HIS word written, the way HE WANTS IT WRITTEN! There is no "distorting" God's word. I can go into a catholic, baptist, protestant, or four-square church, grab their BIBLE and they will all read the same message. Sure, the catholic BIBLE might be: "Thou shall not", but the others would say: "You shall not". Here's an example


God will speak to you, at what ever level YOU'RE at. Don't get caught up in the "lingo", listen to the Spirit. God is wiser than His interpreters and teachers. Stop looking at the writer/preacher and listen to the message. Get a revelation from God. Studying God's word, means serious dedication and determination. It requires INVESTIGATING and cross referencing. You got to go into the rabbit hole. You can't look down into it, with a flashlight.

Another small piece of advice: don't start your studies with a doomsday and "smite thee" attitude and perspective. That is NOT what God's word is meant for. That's religion. When studying God's word, find things that will build your faith, give you hope and a reason to live. Most of the stories in the Old Testament were stories of other people's relationship with God. Some had it bad. We get it easy. Build your own relationship with Him and leave the doom and gloom for ATS.


Get a word from God....a PROMISE! His book is FILLED with them. Go get you some. "Give us this day our daily bread" (not talking food) 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'-(Matt 4:4) Oh, and bring a highlighter with you. Highlight what God speaks to you.



Oh, 1 more thing. Gospel means GOOD NEWS. Bad news can be found on TV. lmfao We are what we eat. Get you some bread. See you, in a couple of YEARS.

Oops....i lied....1 final thing.
Definition of 'Last Will And Testament'

A legal document that communicates a person's final wishes, as pertaining to possessions and dependents. A person's last will and testament will outline what to do with possessions, whether they are being left to another person, group or donated to charity, and what will happen to other things for which they are responsible, such as custody of dependents and accounts and interests management.

Investopedia explains 'Last Will And Testament'

A will is written while a person is alive and carried out once they've passed away. In the will, a still-living person is named as the executor of the estate, and that person is responsible for administering the estate and is usually supervised by the probate court to ensure that what is specified in the will is carried out.

RELIGION HAS BLINDED YOU FROM KNOWING THE TRUTH!!!! The lawyers on earth didn't tell you, you have a LEGAL INHERITANCE, did they???

We must remember that this is a vision and we may err with a strictly literal interpretation. Are we to take the Horsemen literally? And the Beast? No, this imagery is a condescension so that we may have some understanding of heavenly things.

Likewise, the city is not an actual city. No, a giant Borg cube does not descend from the sky. The description of the city, with the precious stones and gems, relates to the people of God, those named in the Book of Life who are resurrected to glory.

And this is made clear by Rev. 21:9:

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Avataring it seems wonder what John was seeing to describe such metaphysical energy?

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

biblehub.com...

Originally posted by WonderBoi
Let me just say this: God gave man the ability to write, to speak, to hear, and to think freely.

Very well, you have the whole Bible programmed. But do you know that it's actually true? Oh, that's right they claim it's the word of "God". Nobody has ever seen him. So he is kind of like a ghost writer?

Text Seede, as you know already I view things from a different perspective than you do. But here you are asking about a conspiracy of the clergy. Put yourself in their shoes. Whatever companies or branch of government you work for you try to do a good job for your employer, he feeds you, he rewards you, etc. Why would you expect anything different from people 2000 years ago? The employer of the clergy was the Church and they had a lot of power.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Hello ThinkingHuman,

Yes we had a tussle and if I was rude I apologize for my rudeness.

Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said "conspiracy". I may be too suspicious in my understanding the many denominations but when you see and understand the major players in the Christian theology you come to the realization that we have something very wrong in this understanding of religion. It took me well over eighty years to bring myself to understand that the clergy should be focused on helping people to understand exactly why they are here and where they are going. They do not seem to be interested in that task whatsoever.

I don't mean to be cynical but I have visited many pastors, some priests of various denominations and sat under a rabbinical teacher without a peep of interest in trying to explain this kingdom of heaven. Yet it is in the scriptures and not hidden from the layperson. In fact I have experienced that most all clergy are concerned with protecting their power structure and increasing their income as the number one interest. Maybe it is not conspiracy as much as it is neglect and ignorance. Some people get angry at the word ignorance but everyone is ignorant of certain things. Being ignorant is not that you or I are stupid. Just that we do not have the knowledge of certain matters.

You are correct that the church is the employer but if I ran a business for 2000 years like Christianity has been run then I would have been bankrupt and out of business many years ago. I really do not understand why God would reveal to a prophet and that prophet give it to people and yet not be understood. Why would Jesus give His blood to establish a kingdom of heaven and no one understand what the kingdom of heaven is all about? Makes no sense to me.

I can understand why a prophecy is a prophecy. Only till it is no longer in the future but once that prophecy has happened then there is no reason for it to be hidden. Is there? Most people do not take or have the time to study Christian theology but that is why we have clergy. That is their job just as you have pointed out. Then the masses are at the mercy of the clergy are they not? Now when clergy gets into politics and neglects teaching the manuscripts to the people then the matter gets too sticky for me to understand or to embrace. I do not believe that this is due to neglect but only to line their pockets with glory, power, and money. Any way that is just my own opinion.

Why would you teach of hell without teaching what and where hell is? Why would you teach of the kingdom of heaven without teaching what and where this kingdom is? The scriptures of the NT show all of this very plainly and yet most all clergy are silent. People die every day and yet in almost all funerals there is no mention of the substance change or even what happens to that soul that once was alive. Almost as though it is our secret and you are not to know what we know. Something is very wrong in our churches.

Originally posted by Seede

 

Most people do not take or have the time to study Christian theology but that is why we have clergy. That is their job just as you have pointed out. Then the masses are at the mercy of the clergy are they not? The scriptures of the NT show all of this very plainly and yet most all clergy are silent. People die every day and yet in almost all funerals there is no mention of the substance change or even what happens to that soul that once was alive. Almost as though it is our secret and you are not to know what we know. Something is very wrong in our churches.

Hello Seede, if I read correctly you are my senior and I tip my hat to you. I agree with everything you say, with one little nuance, it is not shown very plainly, it is rather hidden and on purpose so. NWT 1Cor 15:51 tells us the 'sacred secret, that we shall not all fall asleep in death but we shall all be changed' (in substance as you said). NIV uses the word 'mystery' which makes it more ambiguous.

As you said it is there for everybody to read but even for us today the Bible is hard to read, and in many epochs it was not even in the language of the people but the one of the court, plus nobody was able to afford one. It is not as plainly as it should be, if it had come from a benevolent God made for the people. Instead, the only practical option was to believe and follow whatever the clergy said. The sheep relied and relies on the shepherds to guide them but the shepherds work for their employer. For the clergy it pays better to be a sycophant rather than a rebel, and to protect the secret rather than to divulge it.

You are correct you would be bankrupt if you ran a business like the church does. Yet they were the largest land owner and wealthiest organization in the world for many centuries. This is easy to understand when you consider the kings were 'the God', or else 'authorized' by the God. Everything belonged to him, including land people money, people were only tolerated to use it at his pleasure. You see, the other sacred secret is that the King has the firepower and the one with the firepower is God. We as in you and me, we don't have clergy, the King does. There is nothing wrong with the churches, they are doing their job according to their employer's instructions.

The book of Revelation is not about literal predictions or prophecy of historical events.It is written in symbols (metaphors ) and signs(numbers).It is about one thing only. The salvation of God to ALL humanity.Not for just a few but everyone.

The scriptures are not a manual to be studied and applied to life as guidelines.They are a testimony of the immense scope of of one thing ....God is salvation.

That is exactly what the 1st verse of Revelation says.

The apocalypse(unveiling)
of Yahoshua(God is salvation)
Christ(Mashiach ... christ....the anointing..the power of God.

That is ALL it is about .It isn't a method for receiving salvation it is a testimony OF that salvation.Man does NOTHING, God does it ALL.. 100%.God is sovereign and needs zero help from man (nor can man offer it).To believe it is anything beyond that is futility.The testimony of the salvation of God IS the spirit of prophecy....period.