Why should I go to hell?, page 18

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by MamaJ

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It was a clear question why people think the op would go to hell.

If he would have stated it that way, it would have been evident his intention was Christian bating, so to suck people in, he pretended as if he was actually concerned about possibly ending up in Hell, which to me is dishonest.

edit on 18-8-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

I see it as a way to get people in here to say why they believe the op may go to hell.

I've been told many time I'm going there because I do not believe every single word in the Bible is of God.

I've also been told I'm going to hell for countless other reasons, from the Christians of course. They are all sooo sweet! Ha!

In my opinion the op just wanted to pick the brains of members to find out their reasons.... As we can see people have different reasons why.

It boils down to PERCEPTION. I can tell the op why I believe there are many mansions and some include a not so pretty mansion. But in the end it is only a belief of perception from study of ancient history.

No on truly knows except from what we have been told by the experiencer who experienced such a hell.

None of us know if it exists.... Our proof are words.

If you don't trust mans Intentions and believe him to lie then it's hard to blindly follow a book our leaders laid out before us waaaay back when not to mention the many times it's been translated and perverted.

Christians today are not taught reincarnation when Is you study ancient texts they tell a story of rebirth.... I find it in the Bible as many do. Why do they not teach this today? I know why... Because its easier to control the population with fear of messing up this life and going there to burn for all of eternity. Why tell them you get chances to perfect as Jesus did. It's just an opinion of mine.... A perception of truth.

Who's right? Why argue opinions?

You stated what you had to say to the op.... And then come back, rude, making accusations that are clearly not so and if it were you had the will to not be baited.

Religious threads are opinions.... No facts at all.

I can site reincarnation all day and site people who have memories of past lives. If you are not into the idea though, you will reject it and link sites to support your opinion.

Either way the op clearly stated the intent, please go back and read it.... It's very clear, and I'm not a Christian so do you think it's not a bait to me, just you?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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Your opinion that I was unsure or nervous about the afterlife was based completely off of an assumption. Do not put blame on me for your mistake.

I have no idea "what you have been through" and I said what would have been recalled when I approached your thread and without assumptions.
I did not make a "mistake" but took the OP at face value. I think in retrospect you were wrong to deliberately lead people into replying in a way that does not fit your concerns, where you should have stated you had no concerns, rather were looking for an opportunity to make people with beliefs look stupid.

reply to post by MamaJ

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You stated what you had to say to the op.... And then come back, rude, making accusations that are clearly not so and if it were you had the will to not be baited.

I think they are "so" and being "rude" is appropriate in the circumstances.
How am I to "will" to not be taken in? I had the will to not being bated and exercised it by not adding more comments concerning hell as fuel for a fire for someone's amusement, but rather to complain about thread making style.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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I can see this going somewhere I don't want to go on a public forum. So I will say one more time that baiting was not my intent. Everyone has preconceptions when entering into a discussion or making a thread centered around religion.

Take my word or don't, I don't really care, but I know what my intent was and I will leave it at that.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by MamaJ

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You stated what you had to say to the op.... And then come back, rude, making accusations that are clearly not so and if it were you had the will to not be baited.

I think they are "so" and being "rude" is appropriate in the circumstances.
How am I to "will" to not be taken in? I had the will to not being bated and exercised it by not adding more comments concerning hell as fuel for a fire for someone's amusement, but rather to complain about thread making style.

edit on 18-8-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

This back and forth has exhausted itself. Do you want to tell the op again why you believe he is going to hell or do you want to continue to be baited or what? Lol

I'm off to take the kids to the fair... Maybe see if there can be a conversation had about hell and give details as to why or why not he will go to hell... Or not. What's your opinion other than what you stated before? I thought your last post was pretty spot on and nice back about five or six pages, I believe.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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Do you feel like you have been baited into an arguement? Hahaha... Let's laugh. :-)

Op as far as hell... I do wonder what awaits us all. Which dimension will we find ourself in when this life is over. I'm thinking as long as we live a good life and treat others with respect. Give whenever you can and have a heart that helps people in need... We should be ok.

I believe Jesus was a vegetarian. He taught this within the Essene community and I eat meat!

I knowingly sin daily and I'm ok with it.... I know I can never be perfect in flesh and spirit right now so although I do try, I fail. It time.

My good out weighs my bad though.

People who know me think highly of me and even my teenage kids. Lol I have to be doing something right.

You sound like you know you are not going there, however none of us truly know what awaits us individually so there may be doubt, but always keep positive and never allow someone else's belief hurt you. Remember it's looking from their eyes and what they believe. They are entitled to their opinion but it's truly sad others would even have the audacity to pretend they know where you are going and to say its hell is beyond me. It's so very wrong in so many ways!

reply to post by MamaJ

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You mentioned mansions earlier, I interpret 'mansion' as 'planet'. After you die, you leave this mansion (Earth) and are reincarnated into another mansion (planet) within this universe. Some 'mansions' are ugly and Earth is an ugly mansion because of what it's residents (us) have turned it into. You could reincarnate within an ugly mansion but you also have the same amount of opportunities to be reincarnated into a nice mansion.

ETA: To clarify, I do not know what mansion I will be born in but I know I'll keep the room that belongs to me clean.

reply to post by MamaJ

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What's your opinion other than what you stated before? I thought your last post was pretty spot on and nice back about five or six pages, I believe.

I wasn't so much interested in a back and forth but was agreeing with another poster about how the Op was worded.
As for an opinion, I am looking at a book right now called The New Testament as True Fiction by Douglas Templeton and you can use his thesis towards the description of Hell where it does not matter what the place is, to the story, and anything can be inserted, especially when it is not a travel guide but a guide to avoid that fate. The point of the telling is to get to what matters, and that you can't take it with you so the striving for the accumulation of material goods is useless and actually counter-productive if you gain at other's expense.

Templeton uses an example from T.S. Eliot’s poetry from “Burnt Norton”:

At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.

Just as a commentary to the above quote, it does not matter if there really is a place like that to the story.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.

Just as a commentary to the above quote, it does not matter if there really is a place like that to the story.

The 'still point' he is talking about is the now, what happens from moment to moment. The never ending presence of the moment.

If you freeze time, you interrupt the 'dance' and everything becomes still, fixed in place. Imagine one of those cool movie scenes where the camera floats through a room while everything is still. That is what the 'now' is. It happens at every instant, but you can never see it, everything from your perspective is moving, but in an instant of time you are still, motionless, including everything else. We are experiencing the 'dance' or movement. The place he is talking about is the right here and right now.

One of Zeno's paradoxes talks about this:

The arrow paradox

“ If everything when it occupies an equal space is at rest, and if that which is in locomotion is always occupying such a space at any moment, the flying arrow is therefore motionless. ”
—Aristotle, Physics VI:9, 239b5

In the arrow paradox (also known as the fletcher's paradox), Zeno states that for motion to occur, an object must change the position which it occupies. He gives an example of an arrow in flight. He states that in any one (durationless) instant of time, the arrow is neither moving to where it is, nor to where it is not.[11] It cannot move to where it is not, because no time elapses for it to move there; it cannot move to where it is, because it is already there. In other words, at every instant of time there is no motion occurring. If everything is motionless at every instant, and time is entirely composed of instants, then motion is impossible.

Whereas the first two paradoxes presented divide space, this paradox starts by dividing time—and not into segments, but into points.

Source

This is what 'itsnowagain' talks about.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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The 'still point' he is talking about is the now, what happens from moment to moment.

You are looking at the poem as a work of art, so you have a flexibility of interpretation, where if you were approaching it as if it was a philosophical thesis, you would be examining it for factuality where there either was a place like that or not to build further points on that axiom. You would not be able to get very far using that methodology. Templeton is comparing how people normally interpret the New Testament with how it would be taken if at the beginning it was understood as a work of art, in other words, a work of fiction.
Anyway I don't have the book yet. I was reading a preview and will not get the book until it ships over from England (where it is printed).

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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"Why should I go to hell?"

There's no reason why. Neither are the reasons you gave why you shouldn't be..

The real reason why, however, may be in the realm or domain of an unknown unknown (something you don't even known you don't know) which no amount of good works and "niceness" can possibly justify, since it exceeds by many orders of magnitude the reasons we might give, to our own credit, why we deserve instead, paradise.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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So you deny that there is a now? That is what he is talking about within the poem. Every poem has as an inspiration do they not? The 'now' is the inspiration for his philosophic poem.

'Now' describes his poem perfectly, how could it not be the inspiration?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

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So there is no reason why but 'the real reason why is.........'?

How is there a real reason when there is no reason?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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Not why you should, but the real reason why you shouldn't and ought not need worry about it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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So you deny that there is a now? That is what he is talking about within the poem.

You are trying to figure out things I am talking about from some place where you already have everything figured out and don't see what the point of what I am saying is.
There is no literal "place" which is the center of the earth's spin where you can go and dance, or not dance.
There could be, in your imagination in order to get what Elliot is saying and it is not dependent on the factuality of what it was you used to construct this "mental place".

ETA: it is no wonder to me why you have a problem with religion since you have this odd dogmatic literalist approach, very similar to NOTurTypical but resulting in opposite conclusions.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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I'm not sure where you're getting dogma from with what I've said. All I was doing was explaining what he meant in the poem. You implied that you didn't know if there was such a place and I'm telling you what that place is in my opinion.

Maybe I am missing something in your meaning, I dunno. Could you maybe say what your meaning behind quoting that poem was?

Also, I don't claim to know everything. There are many many things I have no clue about, including how we got here, I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

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If there is a reason for why you shouldn't, there is always a reason why you should. Saying otherwise goes against logic and non-contradiction.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

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You're the one who posed the question

"Why should I go to hell?"

and then proceeded to explain why you shouldn't, because of how nice you are.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

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And thank you for your answer, but your answer doesn't make sense in my opinion.

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