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Pauls statements against women.

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posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,
-1 Timothy 2:9

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
-1 Timothy 2:12

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
-1 Cor 14:34

If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
-1 Corinthians 14:35




Now either there is nothing wrong with instructing women to "remain silent" or these verses are forgeries.
Its clear that Paul had a certain view towards women.

What do christians think? Do they ensure that their women follow Pauls instructions?

Also does anybody else think its ironic how Paul refers to the "law" in 1 Cor 14:34..... despite him speaking against the law in other verss?



edit on 15-8-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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This is the way society was back then. This is why women aren't spoken much of in the biblical cannon, remember the council of Nicea (spelling?) put the cannon together. We have progressed now. But, in the same breath, there is a reason that women were held to such standards, not that I whole heartedly agree with it.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Put thing into historical context and you'll realize that NOBODY is asking women to follow these rules today, well except muslims of course. I hate when people talk about all the bad things in the Christian bible that nobody follows or enforces anymore.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Paul was a mysoginistic Pharisee.

For the time, his strictures were actually very liberal with regards to women.

I don't really consider myself Christian anymore, I'm still searching; but I was raised Christian and have a degree in christian theology. The only comment I would make is simple.

Paul was not Jesus. Christians are supposed to follow Jesus...who certainly didn't seem to have a problem with women.

s&f



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Fitch303
 




I hate when people talk about all the bad things in the Christian bible that nobody follows or enforces anymore.


Are there any christian leaders who have declared that these "bad things" are archaic and that nobody needs to follow anymore?


Do christians even think its acceptable to ignore or reject parts of the bible...especially the ones they are not comfortable with? Like Pauls instructions on women?



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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In those verses Paul is giving his opinion on how the church should be run, there is something called Hermeneutics used to study ancient text.

You need to take the verses in the context they where given, Pauls personal advice to Timothy on how he runs his congregation and advice for him to follow.

AS he says "I do" he doesn't command it.

Far to many Christians forget to take the verses in the context it was given and end up taking advice as abject commands from God.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 




In those verses Paul is giving his opinion on how the church should be run,


He also instructs that women need to remain silent in church....and that its "disgraceful" for a woman to speak in church.

Did he actually mean that women LITERALLY need to keep quiet or am I interpreting it in the wrong way?


Far to many Christians forget to take the verses in the context it was given and end up taking advice as abject commands from God.


Context? What exacly did Paul mean when he said its "disgraceful" for women to speak in church?
Tell me.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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that is all because of the fall. it was woman's fault for listening to the serpent and man's fault for listening to the woman. so.. AND IT IS VERY FAIR TREATMENT if u ask me.. to tell women.. to shutup when they are out of place!

No man should submit to a woman. sorry ladies but that's just the way it is. there are many other occurrences which speak of why the woman must be quiet and submissive to the man.

this simply so that woman doesnt make us fall any further. yeah i know she's got her painful childbirth as punishment and we got the easy side.. but that doesnt mean.. some woman somewhere wont open her mouth to take charge of a man in ignorance and mislead him...


then even tho you followed their instructions to the letter.. when everything flops they blame the man. men take charge..

Peace



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


As I said, it was a recommendation on how the church should be run, its advice one pastor gave another, and it can be flawed.

Paul is human, he is not Christ, as smyleegrl said already.

So again its advice from one pastor to another, not a command from God, it is a recommendation that is all.

And BTW most modern churches throw that advice out.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by 0mage
 


... All that a woman has to do is bat her eyes and shake her ass. I hear where you're coming from. Not that I agree with it all the way though.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
In those verses Paul is giving his opinion on how the church should be run, there is something called Hermeneutics used to study ancient text.

You need to take the verses in the context they where given, Pauls personal advice to Timothy on how he runs his congregation and advice for him to follow.

AS he says "I do" he doesn't command it.

Far to many Christians forget to take the verses in the context it was given and end up taking advice as abject commands from God.

QFT.

All too many forget that even in the pages of the bible, there is commentary and opinion, as well as simple history. Paul was not speaking for or about god here, he was speaking in regards to his views in light of living in a patriarchal society.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by benrl
 

Context? What exacly did Paul mean when he said its "disgraceful" for women to speak in church?
Tell me.


yes, context. What's yours? What's your point here?

When I read what Paul said about women, my reaction is, "So what?" It doesn't apply today. Not that I don't think it interesting. The "context," if you will was Paul running around the Roman world trying to keep his branch of Christianity going. He'd be in one place like Ephesus and write to the Corinthians to keep their act together. Why? Because they were straying from where he thought they should go. In the early Christian church females were VERY important. There were no "churches" as such and people met in homes, the domain of females. Paul makes it very clear that he wants to put women in their place and, indeed, he won. The Christian church became very male dominated and remained so for centuries.

So I take Paul quite literally. He meant what he said. There's nothing esoteric about it. That doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to him today.
edit on 8/15/2012 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 




As I said, it was a recommendation on how the church should be run, its advice one pastor gave another, and it can be flawed.
Paul is human, he is not Christ, as smyleegrl said already.
So again its advice from one pastor to another, not a command from God, it is a recommendation that is all.
And BTW most modern churches throw that advice out.


1. If most churches throw that advice out does it mean that Paul isn't exactly that important to Christianity? Im asking because I know most christians wouldn't openly toss out Jesus' advice.

2. You say "its advice from one pastor to another, not a command from God".
Can this be applied to Pauls other teachings? In the sense, his books only contain his opinions, and are NOT the word of God.

3. If churches think they can throw out Pauls advices about women remaining silent, why exactly do christians quote from Paul in the first place? Shouldn't they be following Jesus instead of Paul?



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 





All too many forget that even in the pages of the bible, there is commentary and opinion, as well as simple history. Paul was not speaking for or about god here, he was speaking in regards to his views in light of living in a patriarchal society.




EXACTLY!!!

A lot of Pauls words in the bible are just that... opinion. His opinion.
Yet, his words are quoted to frame christian doctrines and theology.

Now, if only more christians approached Pauls words as "commentary and opinion"...instead of quoting him as if his words equal truth from God.





edit on 15-8-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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I don't understand Christians when they tend to go by or listen to the other appostles when Christ Jesus clearly said what and how we should live by/do.

ETA: IMHO true Christians follow the words of Christ Jesus and him only. Even if some words were mistranslated the meaning of his parables and what not still are the same and hold true to living a good and fruitful life for our Father, the Lord.
edit on 15-8-2012 by kimish because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 





1. If most churches throw that advice out does it mean that Paul isn't exactly that important to Christianity? Im asking because I know most christians wouldn't openly toss out Jesus' advice. 2. You say "its advice from one pastor to another, not a command from God". Can this be applied to Pauls other teachings? In the sense, his books only contain his opinions, and are NOT the word of God. 3. If churches think they can throw out Pauls advices about women remaining silent, why exactly do christians quote from Paul in the first place? Shouldn't they be following Jesus instead of Paul?


1. Big difference between taking advice and throwing out all his opinions out (which should be if they conflict with Christ)

2. Same as above when conflict with Christ own words.

3. They do, some just take every word in the bible as Commands, as I already said its his opinion based off the situation at the time.


If I go to a pastor now, and he gives me his opinion based off the text, I would take his advice as readily as I would paul, which would mean I would weight it based on my own understanding of my own faith and make a decision.

People forget that Jesus was most angry with people who followed the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it, so yes Christ should always be example.

When you have people preaching rules and law, and not love an forgiveness, yes you should re-evaluate where you are going to church.
edit on 15-8-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 




1. Big difference between taking advice and throwing out all his opinions out (which should be if they conflict with Christ)


So in other words, Christians are supposed to pick and choose what they need from Paul?

If its something that supports a certain doctrine or theology, then Pauls words are valid....and if its something instructing women to shut up , it needs to be thrown out.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by benrl
 




1. Big difference between taking advice and throwing out all his opinions out (which should be if they conflict with Christ)


So in other words, Christians are supposed to pick and choose what they need from Paul?

If its something that supports a certain doctrine or theology, then Pauls words are valid....and if its something instructing women to shut up , it needs to be thrown out.





Christians should heed Christ Jesus. Period.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Do you not understand the deffinition of advice?


ad·vice    [ad-vahys] Show IPA noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.

2. a communication, especially from a distance, containing information: Advice from abroad informs us that the government has fallen. Recent diplomatic advices have been ominous.

3. an official notification, especially one pertaining to a business agreement: an overdue advice.


I swear you are purposefully being obtuse, Do you think you will get a different answer if you keep asking me the same thing?



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by benrl
 




I swear you are purposefully being obtuse, Do you think you will get a different answer if you keep asking me the same thing?


1. No. Im just getting the impression that you pick and choose what you want from Paul... while throwing out the rest... since its only "advice".

2. However, I like your idea of "throwing out" Pauls opinions if they conflict with Christ. Does this apply only to the issue of women remaining silent in church, or do you suppose it can extend to other things as well?



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