The 12th Imam: A Question.

This is an open question to Muslims.
I'm a Christian, by way of disclosure, but my question isn't a pointed one... just one born out of curiosity.

Let's say that the 12th Imam 'arrives' next year on the international scene.
How exactly would you know? How is he identified? Is it by way of lineage (e.g a descendent of Mohammed)...? If so, how would that be proven? Is there a current, reliable source that shows the descendants of Mohammed?

Thanks in advance!

reply to post by Awen24


I'm not Muslim, but I thought you might be interested in reading the downloadable version of a book that was passed out at the last Imam Mahdi Conference in Iran that can answer all of your questions. Including a complete physical description.

"The Prophet Jesus (as) and Hazrat Mahdi will come this century"

harunyahya.com...

Originally posted by Awen24
This is an open question to Muslims.
I'm a Christian, by way of disclosure, but my question isn't a pointed one... just one born out of curiosity.

Let's say that the 12th Imam 'arrives' next year on the international scene.
How exactly would you know? How is he identified? Is it by way of lineage (e.g a descendent of Mohammed)...? If so, how would that be proven? Is there a current, reliable source that shows the descendants of Mohammed?

Thanks in advance!

I think it goes on oral tradition, there are many who claim to be descended from him through Fatima and Ibn Ali.
Genetic Testing To Prove Descendency To Mohammed

With these various samples, we were able to identify an overlapping signature in their DNA, a common thread for all of them, which is their genetic lineage from the Prophet, if their oral tradition is accurate,” said Bennett Greenspan, chief executive of Family Tree DNA, which is said to have amassed one of the largest DNA databases in the world.

Again, it goes back to oral tradition in most cases. Really it is like if British people said they descend from King Arthur. The men who were tested do share a common ancestor, but it is mere oral tradition that they come from Mohammed. If they are then great for them.

The Prophet Mohammed had no surviving sons but his daughter Fatima married her paternal second cousin, Ali, producing two grandsons: Hassan and Hussein. Both have a traceable line of male descendants

That would mean there is no direct patrilineal line to Mohammed, but rather, his grandfather.

“A mechanism called qiyafah, similar to an expert witness, existed at the time of the Prophet,” said Sheikh Musa Furber, a scholar in Islamic law at the Abu Dhabi-based Tabah Foundation.

“The Prophet would send the people to an expert who can look at overall physical resemblance to deduce who might be the father. Today, instead of qiyafah, we should consider DNA testing.”

Even though it is considered that Mohammed had no sons with his legal wives that does not mean he did not have sons outside of those wives.

There is another issue that arises in the Islamic tradition when using DNA to establish lineage: “Lineage, or nasab, in Islamic law assumes lawful intercourse,” Sheikh Musa said. “But since a DNA test cannot prove lawful intercourse, it cannot stand as proof of lineage from a legal perspective.”

That means any child born outside of the legal marriage, including to Mohammed, they would not be considered a child by lineage. That does not exclude Muttah marriage children.

There is no way to determine who is descended from Mohammed. All of the supposition is based in oral tradition, but if Mohammed himself had no sons then there will be absolutely no way of direct descent based on patrilineal DNA. It means the men tested share a common ancestor, only the oral legend says it is Mohammed. If Mohammed never claimed any sons, then his patrilineal line ended. Fatima was his daughter and does not carry the Y Chromosome in which the testing is based on. She had children, but her children would be directly descendent from her mother's matrilineal and Ibn Ali's patrilineal.

reply to post by Awen24

This is an open question to Muslims.
I'm a Christian, by way of disclosure, but my question isn't a pointed one... just one born out of curiosity.

Let's say that the 12th Imam 'arrives' next year on the international scene.
How exactly would you know? How is he identified? Is it by way of lineage (e.g a descendent of Mohammed)...? If so, how would that be proven? Is there a current, reliable source that shows the descendants of Mohammed?

Thanks in advance!

(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

I'm more inclined towards Islam but Im not muslim. But here is my contribution to your thread....

From what I know, the Mahdi is described as having an "Israelite body"... and most of his army are Israelites.

I know the idea of "muslim Israelites" sounds wierd, but thats what Islamic prophecy teaches.
Please read sites.google.com...

The only people who are both "muslim" and "Israelite" are the Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are interested, please go over my thread Prophecy watchers....keep your eyes on Afghanistan

and watch this video

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


sites.google.com...

Sign-7 Mahdi himself will look like Bani Israel

The blessed Mahdi’s stature and posture resemble those of the People of Israel. (Reference:Al-Qawl Al-Mukhtasar Fi alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, pp. 36-29.)

He will resemble one of the Israelites [in his external appearance]. (Reference: Al-Uqayli, An-Najmu's-saqib fi Bayan Anna'l Mahdi min Awladi Ali b. Abu Talib Ale't-Tamam ve'l Qamal).

It is as if he is a man from the people of Israel. (Reference: Nuaym ibn Hammad, vr. 52a; Mar'i ibn Yusuf al-Maqdisi, Fera Idu Fevaidi'l Fiqr Fi'l Imam al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar).

Thanks for all the answers, guys... much appreciated.
I wanted an answer and didn't have a clue where to start looking!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

sites.google.com...

Sign-7 Mahdi himself will look like Bani Israel

The blessed Mahdi’s stature and posture resemble those of the People of Israel. (Reference:Al-Qawl Al-Mukhtasar Fi alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, pp. 36-29.)

He will resemble one of the Israelites [in his external appearance]. (Reference: Al-Uqayli, An-Najmu's-saqib fi Bayan Anna'l Mahdi min Awladi Ali b. Abu Talib Ale't-Tamam ve'l Qamal).

It is as if he is a man from the people of Israel. (Reference: Nuaym ibn Hammad, vr. 52a; Mar'i ibn Yusuf al-Maqdisi, Fera Idu Fevaidi'l Fiqr Fi'l Imam al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar).

edit on 15-8-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

What does it mean to look like an Israelite? Does that mean he will be orthodox Jew with the curly hair and wearing a prayer shawl?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Daniel 10 and Revelation 1 tell you what he will look like. Body like Beryl (sparkling/gleaming like multicolored gems). bronzed skin, white hair, fiery eyes (hazel or just fierce looking?) Face bright like lightning, voice of a multitude/many waters, wearing a girdle like the gold of Uphaz (Ophir?) and robed. In short, he looks like the Ancient of Days.

reply to post by WarminIndy

What does it mean to look like an Israelite? Does that mean he will be orthodox Jew with the curly hair and wearing a prayer shawl?

It means someone resembling the biblical Israelites, in terms of racial features.
Not necassary that he will be an orthodox Jew... as "Jew" is not synonymous with "Israelite".

Have not you ever read the revelation of John :

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne
biblehub.com...

Sun is Muhammad, moon is Ali and the twelfth star is the son of Man. He is from descendants of Muhammad through Fatima and Ali. and his mother is from saint Peter. He is the twelfth Imam. He is Mahdi. He is alive hidden from eyes and will return accompanied with Jesus who is alive also, and many other good persons of history who will wake up from their graves. As it is mentioned in the revelations of Daniel. Mahdi is called as "standing" as Daniel has said.

The third star who was cast down in the revelation of John (mentioned above) is Hussain Ibn Ali. Son of Fatima. The third imam. whom John the baptist predicted his coming. whom he was killed like John the baptist. whom John the baptist says these sentences about him :

I* indeed baptise you with water to repentance, but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not fit to bear; *he* shall baptise you with [the] Holy Spirit and fire; 12whose winnowing fan [is] in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
biblehub.com...

John the Baptist clearly mentions the name Hussain, It is existed in the original texts and it is translated to the word mightier.

Peace be upon Fatima, her Father, her Husband, her two sons and the secret which is hidden in Fatima.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
I'm more inclined towards Islam but Im not muslim.

You are not Muslim anymore?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
There is no way to determine who is descended from Mohammed.

There is one way to determine who is related ... not necessarily descended from Muhammads sexual conquests but at least related to him. Open the tomb and do some DNA work. The rotted body is in there. Well .. it's supposed to be anyways.

originally posted by: Awen24
This is an open question to Muslims.
I'm a Christian, by way of disclosure, but my question isn't a pointed one... just one born out of curiosity.

Let's say that the 12th Imam 'arrives' next year on the international scene.
How exactly would you know? How is he identified? Is it by way of lineage (e.g a descendent of Mohammed)...? If so, how would that be proven? Is there a current, reliable source that shows the descendants of Mohammed?

Thanks in advance!

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: maes2

Do you have the mark of prostration Maes?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: maes2

Do you have the mark of prostration Maes?

No !

a reply to: maes2

I am sending you a message. Check u2u.