Why does the Universe exist?

reply to post by KingAtlas


thats a rather rude thing to say, considering the only thing you offered were links to PBS nova.

reply to post by ImaFungi

a lot of your post was trying to prove this

I was expressing my belief and opinion I wasn't trying to prove. Pretty sure I worded it as such

I challenge each person who has posted in this thread so far,
and particularly the OP.
Not because I want to or disagree with any particular point,
but because the silent majority who have read along and nodded their heads
as though the right question had been asked,
and this discussion is even remotely aimed in the right direction.
/[color=gold]gauntlet thrown






Someone asked a forum once
"If you achieved ultimate enlightenment what would you ask the universe"
and I said
why would I interrupt the universe to ask it a question I'm still learning from it.









As far as I can tell
the universe is for the elimination of variables.
Or at least the decomposition of variables.

Billions of things go into making dirt,
but in the end all those things become dirt.
If dirt is not, and has never been any one particular thing,
why do we have the one general word for it.

The first question/variable to eliminate when speculating outside the solar system
is "How do we _know_ that all these stars are not really just three stars,
and space is curved."





In a curved universe just large enough to hold our entire solar system,
the light from our sun could circle around the perimeter for quite a while
before being deflected back directly towards earth and giving the appearance
of being some distant yellow star. It could even accumulate red shift.

We know our universe is not that small and curved so close to home
because we see stars that are red and blue-white as well.
But how do we know that this universe isn't just
those three stars?

Show your work.





Because it is entirely feasible
and mathematically model-able
that there are only three stars,
a red one, a yellow one, and a blue-white one,
and that the curve of space causes a hall of mirrors effect
which creates the illusion of wild variety and infinite potential distances.

You wana question the universe?
Prove we are discussing a universe at all.


Mike Grouchy

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


ok yea my bad,.,.,.,,,.by a lot of your post i meant you spoke on that theme for a lot,,,, and by prove i meant,.,.., you were speaking on why that theme was logically sound and relevant,,, I know see and saw then you were only expressing your thoughts and opinions on this manner in this chat,,

reply to post by mikegrouchy





those are all galaxies filled with billions of suns,,,

not stars themselves that we observe redshifting

reply to post by ImaFungi


but thats the thing though. Infinite is infinite and always will be.
Its not infinite - 137 because 137 stars died today
and its not infinite + 80 because 80 new stars formed today.

Infinite cannot be a variable. really, infinite isn't even a number.

infinite is a mental / mathematical construct that cant exist physically. You cant quantize an infinite amount of things. No matter how many stars or particles there are in the universe, you could always come up with a larger number on paper.

If the universe was infinite, it would also be infinite in mass. If you had an infinite amount of mass you would have an infinite amount of gravity.

You can do all sorts of mental experiments, extrapolate upon the idea of the universe being infinite, and every avenue you inspect will lead you to irrational conclusions which we can easily see are not true.

The term infinite has some very strange connotations.

By definition, infinity contains an infinite set of infinite sets.
there would be an infinite number of even numbers.
and infinite number of odd numbers.
an infinite number of real numbers
an infinite number of prime numbers
an infinite number of numbers that end in 7
an infinite number of numbers that start with 7
an infinite number of numbers that end in 37
an infinite number of numbers that start with 37
an infinite number of numbers that end in 137
an infinite number of numbers that start with 137
I dont want to keep going on, but,, i could list an... infinite number of sets.

the idea of infinity really has no place in the physical world.

reply to post by VonDoomen


ok,, agreed,,, we only were able to come up with the concept of infinite after the universe existed and birthed us,,,, just because we say,,,, this word is spelled "infinite" and it means this,.,.,. doesnt mean the physical universe will fit into that definition,.,.

more of what i was getting at ,.,.,.,.,,. is the number of stars a finite number? if it is a finite number you could tell me that number right now if you knew it right?

reply to post by mikegrouchy


I pick up your gauntlet and slap you with it.

Do you know how many exoplanets we have found? almost 1,000 last time i checked.

we have found and catalogued way to much to not easily defeat your argument.

What about all the quasars and supernovas we've cataloged? So we can now see into the future as well?

Your theory can very easily be resolved without even needing to use math or map strange models of space.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"so God doesn't have an intervening role, it's the state that exists after the perfect culmination of the evolution of creation."

Precisely, IMO.

on the topic of god as an intervener. I believe exactly what iamafungi said.

I dont think "god" is a cherry picker choosing to help some people and not others.

we're here to learn and grow and mature.

give a man a fish and feed him for a day.
teach a man to fish and feed him for life.

reply to post by VonDoomen


"Your theory can very easily be resolved without even needing to use math or map strange models of space."

agreed.... looking up at night should do the trick

reply to post by mikegrouchy



The Universe is not curved nor is it flat. The universe is pure energy, ever changing. If the Universe was curved then that would mean there was an edge. Do you suggest you would fall off the edge if you went in a straight line in a curved Universe? I suggest, the Univers is pure energy ever changing and what if the Universe was curved throughout causing the effects you explained only on a much larger scale. This would also explain black holes and worm holes.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Yes, you can quantize a finite number of stars. You cant quantize an infinite amount of anything.

I dont think the universe is infinite, but dont worry, its large enough to get some kicks in before it all ends and starts over again.

at which point i should clarify something.

many people believe that the universe expands in a big bang and contracts in a big crunch only to start over again.

if that was the case, you could consider the environment in which this happens to be infinite. unless of course each big bang/crunch gradually becomes less powerful over time and eventually stopped. Kind of like a bouncy ball which bounces a few times but gradually loses its energy.

who knows there may be a infinite non-physical aspect to the universe, there may not be.

however im fairly certain that there is a limit to how much matter is in the universe.

OK what I meant by my reply is that these answers are more philosophical in nature , than based on scientific evidence.

Seeing as this in in the Science & Technology forum, not the Philosophy&Metaphysics forum,
that most ATS'ers would see that as a que to use more scientific answers, rather than philosophical ones.

But, if this is just a philosophical thread on why the Universe exists, then please have at it.

I assumed that this was to be more of a scientific breakdown of the Universe, which is why I added the links to the NOVA program, which is based on modern scientific views of the Universe.

Which is that the Universe exists because in it's original singularity, it was a ordered state, which moves naturally to an unordered state.

To quote Planck, "The logarithmic connection between entropy and probability was first stated by L. Boltzmann in his kinetic theory of gases".[7] This famous formula for entropy S is[8][9] S = k log_e W , where k = 1.3806505(24) × 10−23 J K−1 is Boltzmann's constant, and the logarithm is taken to the natural base e. W is the Wahrscheinlichkeit, the frequency of occurrence of a macrostate[10] or, more precisely, the number of possible microstates corresponding to the macroscopic state of a system — number of (unobservable) "ways" in the (observable) thermodynamic state of a system can be realized by assigning different positions and momenta to the various molecules. Boltzmann’s paradigm was an ideal gas of N identical particles, of which Ni are in the ith microscopic condition (range) of position and momentum. W can be counted using the formula for permutations W = frac[N!][prod_i N_i!] where i ranges over all possible molecular conditions. (! denotes factorial.) The "correction" in the denominator is because identical particles in the same condition are indistinguishable. Boltzmann was also one of the founders of quantum mechanics due to his suggestion in 1877 that the energy levels of a physical system could be discrete. The equation for S is engraved on Boltzmann's tombstone at the Vienna Zentralfriedhof — his second grave.

Source

reply to post by VonDoomen


cool coo.,,.,,.,.

I dont know too much about anti matter, and anti particles.... but could there be an anti universe?


"Yes, you can quantize a finite number of stars."

now the reason i brought up before the fact that stars always are being born and dieing,, that number is constantly changing,,, also if we want to ask how many stars have existed since the beginning of the universe to the end .,,. that may be a finite number,, but as of now,,, the number of stars is not a finite number,, because it is always changing,, wouldnt that be like a number with a repeating decimal thats considered infinite for its constant continuation?

reply to post by KingAtlas


"Why" being an operative word, would surely suggest philosophical discussion especially considering by its very nature science is limited in scope to the physical Universe itself.

I think discussion of science and philosophy should be expected and encouraged when one asks "why does it all exist".

Originally posted by KingAtlas
OK what I meant by my reply is that these answers are more philosophical in nature , than based on scientific evidence.

Seeing as this in in the Science & Technology forum, not the Philosophy&Metaphysics forum,
that most ATS'ers would see that as a que to use more scientific answers, rather than philosophical ones.

But, if this is just a philosophical thread on why the Universe exists, then please have at it.

I assumed that this was to be more of a scientific breakdown of the Universe, which is why I added the links to the NOVA program, which is based on modern scientific views of the Universe.

Which is that the Universe exists because in it's original singularity, it was a ordered state, which moves naturally to an unordered state.

To quote Planck, "The logarithmic connection between entropy and probability was first stated by L. Boltzmann in his kinetic theory of gases".[7] This famous formula for entropy S is[8][9] S = k log_e W , where k = 1.3806505(24) × 10−23 J K−1 is Boltzmann's constant, and the logarithm is taken to the natural base e. W is the Wahrscheinlichkeit, the frequency of occurrence of a macrostate[10] or, more precisely, the number of possible microstates corresponding to the macroscopic state of a system — number of (unobservable) "ways" in the (observable) thermodynamic state of a system can be realized by assigning different positions and momenta to the various molecules. Boltzmann’s paradigm was an ideal gas of N identical particles, of which Ni are in the ith microscopic condition (range) of position and momentum. W can be counted using the formula for permutations W = frac[N!][prod_i N_i!] where i ranges over all possible molecular conditions. (! denotes factorial.) The "correction" in the denominator is because identical particles in the same condition are indistinguishable. Boltzmann was also one of the founders of quantum mechanics due to his suggestion in 1877 that the energy levels of a physical system could be discrete. The equation for S is engraved on Boltzmann's tombstone at the Vienna Zentralfriedhof — his second grave.

Source

edit on 15-8-2012 by KingAtlas because: G&S

yes but thats like saying,,, why does a baby exist?,,, because its born,.,.,..,,

no how then does a baby exist,.,.,. it starts small then grows,.,.,.,.

ok why do babies start small,,, grow,,, and exist at all..,.,.,.,?

asking the same questions of the universe

reply to post by ImaFungi


You are confusing two words. You want the word static, not finite.

finite - Having limits or bounds.

static - Lacking in movement, action, or change

The number of stars will ALWAYS be finite.

BUT

the number of stars will never be static.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I think what you are saying is that you want a metaphysical interpretation of why the universe exists, not a factual one.
I guess it could be explained like this.

The question you posed is similar to asking, why does someone win the lottery, because variables line up and probability determines that someone will win.

In the same sense the Universe exist because of probability.
It is probable that, given the right amount of numbers, that a Universe would come into existence, actually many Universes (Multiverse), given that other Universes did not come into existence.

Laws of Probability


The only reason we know the Universe exists is because it does.

reply to post by Kashai


"In other words God created the conditions for life in no different a way than, a farmer prepares a field for crops and then waited for the results."

Thats kind of how I always viewed the universe.

Its like setting up an elaborate set of dominoes.

all you need to do is flick the first one

reply to post by KingAtlas


kind of like saying, on an infinite time line, even the impossible is bound to happen once.

and this all goes back to my quantum fluctuations theory. It only took 1 erroneous result, 1 abnormal random glitch in the system that cascaded into what we see today.