It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by crankySamurai
Originally posted by thepresident
The problem that you seem to missing is that in this CURRENT environment
the term "free market" is used as a tool to engineer policies for players in the
market.
All those politicians hollering "free market" regularly demolish just enough
regulation to legalize fraudulent policies that negatively impact the consumer
the public and the tax payers.
In 98 there was an environmental bill that impacted oil production, namely spills
and bi products.
In that case the "free market" side was voting to let the company dump their waste
into and aquifer that sources wells in the locale.
Same forces did the same routine with medical waste.
The point WE are making is that the ideology and the practice are NOT the same.
The practice is to call it "free market" so people like you support the action being
proposed.
I in NO way miss understand this.
This is the same way that our government supposedly represents freedom and a democratic republic when in fact it has become the very antithesis of that. Just because Bush passed the patriot act in the name of protecting freedom doesn't mean that freedom is a bad thing.
No politician represents the free market just as none represent liberty. That does not mean that the idea of freedom or liberty has changed!
The politicians do everything in the name of freedom. Does that mean we should oppose freedom? That is what you are suggesting with your opposition to the free market.
I am in no way fooled by their rhetoric... you seem to be though.edit on 4-9-2012 by crankySamurai because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by crankySamurai
reply to post by thepresident
Again if people started going around injecting people with aids in the name of good health does that mean that we should oppose good health?
Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by crankySamurai
The patriot act was a sham.
I knew that from the start and so is the free market concept.
Few are the ideas worth believing.
Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by hawkiye
Your sources are well known for putting out propaganda nonsense. Provide a link that backs your claims and you could get some credibility. You quote numbers from the wrong decades.
Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by crankySamurai
Sorry, I don't share your faith.
Freedom is true.
The market system is true.
But there is no such thing as a free market.
If you believe in a free market, stop support pols who preach the free market while supporting something that is completely the opposite of what you believe.
- From crankySamurai
If a business or individual becomes wealthy it is because they supplied something for which other people voluntarily gave them their dollars.
- From poet1b
Not at all. The most successful borrowed large amounts of money to buy something, which they managed to sell for a whole lot more money. This isn't business, its fraud. They sold a bill of goods, a lot of promises with no real value.
The banks would post collateral, in the form of bundled "securitized" bonds, and use the short-term loans to maintain operations. When the banks collateral became suspect — because no one knew which bundles held the subprime mortgages — then intermediaries (primary dealers) demanded more collateral for the loans. Suddenly the banks were losing money hand-over-fist as the value of their assets tumbled.
Yes, I agree completely.
There is a big difference between selling something of value, and pulling a con.
No, I disagree. The transaction may not be investigated, the perpetrators tried, or proper punishment handed out (See Corzine for a recent example), but that is an attack on the free market or a perversion of the justice system, it is not a condemnation or failure of an economic system.
Under the whole free market scam, fraud is allowed to parade as legitimate business.
In making his case against Lehman, Black exposes the omissions, failures and negligence of the primary regulators, particularly the Fed. Had the Fed not been derelict in its duties, the cyclical downturn would not have turned into a near-Depression. "Lehman’s failure is a story in large part of fraud," Black said in his testimony before the House. "Lehman was the leading purveyor of liars’ loans in the world. For most of this decade, studies of liars’ loans show incidence of fraud of 90per cent. … If you want to know why we have a global crisis, in large part it is before you."
"Lehman’s nominal corporate governance structure was a sham," says Black. "Lehman was deliberately out of control with regard to “risk” in its dominant operation – making “liar’s loans.” Lehman did not “manage” the risk of making liar’s loans. It engaged in massive, fraudulent transactions that were “sure things”. Black notes that sleight-of-hand accounting assures that institutions will "report superb (fictional) income in the short-term and catastrophic losses in the long-term," which is exactly what happened. The head honchos skimmed off billions in fat bonuses and stock options, while their companies were fed to the dogs.
When I was an undergraduate learning basic economics from Paul Samuelson's classic textbook, I ran across a book by Marc Linder called Anti-Samuelson. Linder's book was a leftist critique of Samuelson's presentation of the field. Samuelson was the ostensible target of the attack, but as the author of the leading economics textbook, he was really only a proxy. Linder's actual target, it seemed to me, was the mainstream of the economics profession and the way almost all economists teach undergraduates. He thought we economists preached too much reverence for market mechanisms. (Linder is now a law professor: On his webpage, he sports a t-shirt that says "people before profits.")
No, I disagree. The transaction may not be investigated, the perpetrators tried, or proper punishment handed out (See Corzine for a recent example), but that is an attack on the free market or a perversion of the justice system, it is not a condemnation or failure of an economic system.