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No Savings Are Found From Welfare Drug Tests

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posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


You say "around here".

I'm talking about the country as a whole.

It does not matter.

There are no savings therefore, the program is a failure. There is no dancing around this. We should be worried about creating jobs, not stigmatizing the poor even further.




posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Come on America grow a pair.

I have suffered from panic attacks for thirty years, so I had to make a living buy starting my own businesses, I did day care for years, and now at age 62 I have my ladies who I clean houses for, at 62 with a bad back and hips,

if I can do it you puppies can,

I use the house keeping money to buy supplies to make jewelry and I sell that.

Been homeless, no electricity, no running water, no car, two babies, living off fish and games, long story.

Hardships can either make you or break you, builds character.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by RealSpoke
 


Want to bet ? Testing is very easy to beat...no problems what so ever....no observer and you are in the clear its that simple to bring in someone elses sample and pour in the cup...truck drivers have been doing it for years and years....drug testing is extremly easy to beat and this I know as fact.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:24 AM
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Why are you telling people to "grow a pair" when they are already struggling to survive?

Why is this kind of ignorance tolerated on ATS? Do you realize that we're in the middle of the worst economy in decades? Do your realize just how many people are caught in the middle between a paycheck and living on the street?

My brother cannot find work and has been looking forever. He is on food stamps. His criminal status disqualifies him from many fields of work "around here". He lives with a friend and does chores in place of paying rent.

Do you realize now that not everyone is in YOUR shoes at this point?



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by VaterOrlaag
 


That's the way I feel, I told my youngest son don't sit around here, either it is get a job or go to school.
period.

My parents went through the great depression, my father and grandfather were immigrants, grandpa road the rails until he settled in New Mexico, then Nebraska and ended up here, started his own blacksmith business, in all three states.

I don't have any patients left with people who refuse to work because it is a crap job, I work a crap job.

Yea, grow a pair.

edit on 093131p://bWednesday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by VaterOrlaag
 


I don't have any patients left with people who refuse to work because it is a crap job, I work a crap job.


edit on 093131p://bWednesday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)


so everybody on welfare do not want to work and constantly refuse work? i think you are judging people based on one or two things you witnessed or assumed and then are tarring everybody else with the same brush.

yes there are some people who do not want to work who take drugs and cheat the system. but there are far more people who want to work and find themselves in a very tough situation, and in the current climate are having NO luck where being offered a job is concerned.

you say basically if they wanted to work they would have a job, but like it or not they need to be accepted into one first. people cannot just walk into a shop and demand a job or just start working. there is something the owner needs to do first before they are able to.
edit on 15-8-2012 by lifeform11 because: typo



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Most drugs aren't in your system long enough to be detected. Pretty much only pot stays in your system for more then 3 days. There are that you have to be high or they won't show up at all. Want to beat a pot test easy. Well first have a state empolye tell you when it is. Which is how this program works. take an AZO tablet. It will turn your urine orange. Then drink water and pee till it comes out clear. Waut about an hour and go take the test. By then the ph of the urine will be up high enough to pass the test and the level of any drugs will be to low for the test to pick up on. It is really easy to pass one of these test.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Typical baby boomer mindset.

You can thank your generation for creating the mess that this country is in.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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Record number in government anti-poverty programs

"Virtually every Medicaid director in the country would say that their current enrollment is the highest on record," says Vernon Smith of Health Management Associates, which surveys states for Kaiser Family Foundation.

The program has grown even before the new health care law adds about 16 million people, beginning in 2014. That has strained doctors. "Private physicians are already indicating that they're at their limit," says Dan Hawkins of the National Association of Community Health Centers.
www.usatoday.com...
More than 40 million people get food stamps, an increase of nearly 50% during the economic downturn, according to government data through May. The program has grown steadily for three years.


This is not good.

I am really going to make people angry now,

A friend of mine babies daddy has 13 kids by four different women,
really?!

My great granddaughters fathers father has 25, yes 25 in several different state.

You think this is unusual?

Man With 30 Kids — By 11 Different Mothers — Seeks Child Support Help
www.theblaze.com...

I feel sorry for these children, now do you think the mothers didn't know ?
Most know how many babies their baby daddies have fathered.

whatever, I'm done,



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by RealSpoke
 


Totally posted this like 1000 times yesterday on some stupid picture on facebook that said "if we have to pass one to pay for you, shouldnt you have to pass one too?" or some stupid # like that, i was like UHM THEY HAVE ALREADY PROVEN IT INEFFECTIVE. but of course all the retards were just like YES!! OH YEAH1 OF COURSE! DURR!! ....Facepalm.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by undiscoveredsoul
reply to post by RealSpoke
 


How about this... sure fire way to pass a drug test? DONT DO DRUGS IDIOT! just sayin'.....


Actually this may not always work. False positives do happen. If you search the internet there are many cases of this and you will find hard working, drug free people have lost their jobs over a false positive drug test.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


You know what's weird though Tex, some old dude like my hubby would do it to make ends meet.



Yup. When some of us are willing to cede our rights to the corporatocracy, the rest of us are forced to do the same.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by DocHolidaze
 


LOL, that green is making you paranoid. If I were going to work for the government, why would I make this anti-gov thread?

All I'm saying is everyone that I've ever known who has been on probation, did drugs, always ended up getting violated.

A huge portion of people (that I don't know) on probation end up getting violated for drug use

If it were so easy why is everyone failing?


edit on 14-8-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)


So because the people you know couldn't pass a drug test, it means drug tests are hard to pass?

Yes perfect logic there. Doc got you spanked on this one whether you want to admit it or not.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by mythots
Most drugs aren't in your system long enough to be detected. Pretty much only pot stays in your system for more then 3 days. There are that you have to be high or they won't show up at all. Want to beat a pot test easy. Well first have a state empolye tell you when it is. Which is how this program works. take an AZO tablet. It will turn your urine orange. Then drink water and pee till it comes out clear. Waut about an hour and go take the test. By then the ph of the urine will be up high enough to pass the test and the level of any drugs will be to low for the test to pick up on. It is really easy to pass one of these test.


Then the whole procedure is still losing money, because somebody has to be high around the time he is being tested. So the whole thing is still losing money. Why would we want to keep a procedure in place, if instead of saving money it is losing money? Either fix it or get rid of it.


Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


You know what's weird though Tex, some old dude like my hubby would do it to make ends meet.



Yup. When some of us are willing to cede our rights to the corporatocracy, the rest of us are forced to do the same.


Quit blaming the evil corporations. Nobody complains about cheap cheap prices when he can get a blu ray player on the cheap or a dvd player on the cheap, because they have been made with cheap labour abroad. Same for stock they hold, its all good if the stock soars because of cheap labor abroad as long as its the stock you hold.

And if there is a reaction what is it? They took ar jaabs, instead of helping the people in India and China achieve the same rights people in America and Europe have and therefore eliminating one of the reasons corporations like to export jobs in countries that are (borderline) dictatorships to begin with.
edit on 15-8-2012 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by Cassius666
 


Who are you talking to? I am not blaming corporations. I am blaming spineless people who would seek refuge in tyranny rather than freedom in accountability and strength.

Did you just copy and paste a prior argument here for me? If so, go back and read before hopping in the middle of a conversation.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by DocHolidaze
 


Passing a drug test is actually quite difficult.......I know there is all these myths about all the different ways you can cheat the system but it isn't really true.

Regardless, it didn't work, and was a huge waste of money and did not affect the welfare applicant rate.



Passing drug tests is SUPER easy depending on what kind of drugs they are testing for. Metabolites in the body for certain substances may remain in the system for anywhere from a few hours to a couple days. In the case of urine testing for marijuana which can remain in the system for up to a month, just borrow someone elses pee... really easy to find if you have kids. It's gross but effective!



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by CthuluPrime
 


You can buy synthetic urine in a little squirt bottle, less gross and I can promise you they are effective.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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My thoughts are

1. People on welfare may not be using illegal drugs because illegal drugs are expensive. Many people on welfare may be drinking too much alcohol for their own good. Unfortunately, testing or attempting to test for alcohol opens up a can of worms.

2. There are too many variables to definitively state drug testing welfare recipients will never save money. For example, the job market, the way the testing implemented, etc. can all have an effect on the effectiveness of the testing. To give an example, in today's economy, many people are out of work because there is simply no work for them out there. Putting down the bong and pounding the pavement may not help these people much.

When the job market improves, the situation will be different. There will be less people out of work because there is simply no work for them out there and more people out of work because they are making bad choices like using drugs. Drug testing may spur some drug users to go out and find a job and save the government working.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by PrinceDreamer

people need to realise that the masses claiming welfare is not about entitlement, it is about a lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, something which also increases the amount of drug use within a community, go figure.

This problem will go on and on and on and on, until people finally start to realise the only way to end it is to deal with the root cause, corporate greed that cuts and cuts wages and when it can finally cut them no more, they just out source the jobs to a country that is cheaper

If jobs paid a wage that people could live on, pay for their home, for food, for their kids collage education and healthcare, maybe a few luxuries once in a while and maybe even the occasional vacation then we wouldn't have the same welfare burden we have now. Now this may seem like some sort of Utopian dream, but you know what, America had that, right up until the 80's and Regan, that wonderful and revered president decided it was in the nations best interest to deregulate the banks and industry.... Because it would create economics growth, yeah right




Good point. I did some research yesterday for another thread and I learned that even after Clinton changed the old welfare program to TANF (temporary assistance to needy families)...which drastically did cut costs for cash assistance...in 1996...since then, poverty has NOT improved...the number of people living at or below poverty level did NOT decrease but slightly increased...the number of mothers in the workforce increased but they are still just as poor.



posted on Aug, 15 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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So what? So what if it costs more money to keep people on welfare from abusing the system? Money well spent imho.

I work for a federal agency. I have to get drug tested.

I ***WORK*** for my money, and I have to be drug tested. Yet people who pretend to find work, receive chunks of MY TAXPAYER MONEY are allowed to sit around and get high?

I don't bleeping think-so. It's a matter of principle, not a matter of money.

Even IF drugs were legal, I doubt we'd be able to use them that much (in a working environment) so that's not an excuse either.
The bottom line is if you need help, cool bro you need help and I'm here to help my fellow American get back to work and achieve that American Dream. No problemo.

If the type of help you need is to sit around, do nothing and smoke weed all day then yeah, I got a problem.

Also of note is the fact that the program only ran for 4 months. That's a very small sample size.
According to the New York Times in 2008 87,632 people were on welfare and 1,694,649 people were using food stamps. Mind you, this data was taken right before or duing the 2008 Housing Crisis, so you can BE SURE that number has risen, probably dramatically.

According to the OP's source, only 4,086 people were tested. If we go with the smaller figure of 87,632 that represents only 4.663% of the total welfare base. Adding to that, this article states that 1600 people of the original sources 4,086 declined to even participate. We can infer then that the majority of those would have tested positive (I don't know many people willing to starve for their ideals.)

Hmmm. If we can safely assume that those 1600 who opted out (and decided to starve for their ideals) would have tested positive, then that puts the numbers closer to 1708 positive, 5686 negative which results in 30% of welfare applicants and/or users weeded out, not 2%.

Lets go even further and look at the real world results of this based on the NYT obviously biased interpretation of the data.

Original data:
4,086 - 40 (those who cancelled the test) people = 4,046 - 108 who failed = 3938 x 30 bucks for testing = 118,140

My hypothesized data:
5686 - 40 = 5646 - 1708 positives = 3938 x 30 bucks = 118,140 bucks. Isn't that interesting!?!
So in reality, because the drug testing was implemented, it actually SAVED the state 45,000 dollars.

Hmmmmmm...isn't it interesting that the NYT failed to mention the 1600 plus people declined to undergo the drug testing, and presents all these conclusions on how the program "doesn't work" based on a sampling size of only 4.63% of the total amount of welfare recipients (from 2008 mind you!!)

Also as a reminder, the law went into effect July 2012, and the NYT article in the OP was written in April of 2012.
Four months was the window between these two articles that Florida was actually allowed to conduct testing before a judge stopped it.

Note two* If you read carefully apparently the source references "the cash assistance program" which is only a part of the welfare system (which includes cash assistance, EBT / food stamps etc).
Interesting that they would choose just a subset of those numbers.



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