The human brain is like an advanced remote control

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by neoholographic
It's funny how scientist just make these huge leaps when talking about the brain. The logic goes like this:

Well, this part of the brain is active when X occurs THEREFORE this part of the brain must be responsible for X.

I very strongly put forward the hypothesis that all you have here is a straw man argument.
I very much doubt you could show that this is in any way at all an accurate assessment of how neuroscience works.

Edit - you may be able to find some introductory "for the average citizen" websites that explain such things in a grossly simplified way for the non-scientist... but that doesnt make them true for the actual science or scientists.

edit on 13-8-2012 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)

You may be right, but a lot of people can talk about cars and the technology without having to know exactly how every part makes the car work. So there is room for discussion here.

reply to post by neoholographic


As another poster stated, your understanding of neurosciences positions are obviously lacking. I study neuroscience, going for a doctorate, and your whole rant just kind of made me shake my head in disappointment. People NEED to be taught at least the fundamentals of neuroscience in high-school, it is so important. So I am not ragging on you, just saying, go study up on it some more. You'll find out some really cool things, and I bet you'll even realize that your previous assumptions about it were totally wrong.

I'll be the first to say that neuroscience is lacking in many areas and is still a very young science. The whole "materialist" rant you went on though kind of just makes me sad, because the point of neuroscience is not to "kill spirituality" or anything like that, nor is it to usher in some atheistic/technocratic state. I hear a lot of fundamentalists talk like this. It is like any other science though, merely exploring that which is observable to hopefully answer some important questions. I have no problem if you want to answer those questions through some belief that you picked up along the way, but that does not satisfy me. When people are suffering in all sorts of ways, when society is seemingly losing its "collective mind" and falling into chaos, simple religious/spiritual beliefs don't cut it, for me at least. I am a pretty spiritual guy too, and believe it can help many people as it did me. But it cannot address some issues that are obviously plaguing our species right now. Morally shaming people out of anger and greed does not work, on a wide scale at least. Figuring out biological and environmental causations can unlock some possible solutions though. That is the whole point of science.

Check out this link, its a list of 10 of the most important/famous experiments/findings in neuroscience: www.humanswers.net...

The problem with strict materialists is that they first draw their conclusion, then look for evidence to support it. They assume a strictly materialist world view, then limit their explanations for causes to only those that fit within that view. Of course they're going to end up concluding that there are only materialist explanations for everything, because they've already assumed that.

They have done experiments trying to show just that, by electrically stimulating certain parts of the brain to provoke certain responses. The funny thing is that that does show that the brain responds to external stimuli rather than being self contained, which suggests there is something external operating the brain.

reply to post by SilentKoala

The problem with strict materialists is that they first draw their conclusion, then look for evidence to support it.

Yes, and any good scientist is well versed in this possibility and strive to steer clear of doing this. It is called the problem of presuppositions in science. All sciences must conduct experiments in ways to limit this, if they want to be taken seriously and legit at least. There is a lot written about this though, especially in psychology and in the political sciences. Political polling is plagued by this, in fact it is out of control, lol. But again, most dignified scientists work to minimize this from happening.

reply to post by neoholographic

The answer to your question is an emphatic NO. Consciousness can't be an emergent property of the material brain. You have to show me how this is possible.

And you would have to show me that it is not.

Are you immune to the burden of proof?

I myself give no emphatic no or yes. As I said.

How can the material brain produce consciousness that's not bound by 3 dimensional space-time?

Sorry not sure I understand. Paraphrase for me.

I just recalled 5 specific memories at will. How is this possible for the material brain?

How is it possible the brain processes visual data that seems to be instantaneous? It's a very impressive biological machine it seems.

How does the material brain know the difference between these memories?

Again, undermining the ability of the brain to do all these things is predicated on the notion that 1. memory 2. consciousness, is not emergent from the brain. I am not against the notion but to speak as though it's fact requires proof.

How does the material brain have thoughts or ideas? What stimulates the brain to have these thoughts or ideas?

I suggested earlier the idea that consciousness being defined as the 'stream if thoughts' could be seperate from awareness itself. So perhaps thoughts are emergent, therefore personality is emergent of the brain, but awareness itself originates externally.

People can't just say the brain is responsible for these things because a part of the brain is active when these things occur. You have to explain how it is even possible for the material brain to accomplish these things.

They can say that just as rationally as you can say the things you're saying.

Has either proved their case definitively?? That's news to me....

This field produces all things and the brain is advanced enough to interact with this field and have a self aware experience.

I referenced the book 'The God Theory' because it's inline with my belief. Do you recall the premise? I am not against your thinking, I just don't agree with your position that you know with certainty.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"but awareness itself originates externally. "

awareness is the most basic format that drives the human vehicle by utilizing senses,,.,.,. even without senses,, one is still conscious and aware though,, you are still "turned on" and i believe its the looping and conserving of energy in the human system which does this,.,.,. remove a computer from its energy source ,.,.. or remove a human from its energy source and in little time that computer and human will no longer be able to function as the system once able was.,..,.

the biggest problem to me is,,, how was unconscious matter able to construct/invent a "technological" system of controlled awareness?

reply to post by ImaFungi

awareness is the most basic format that drives the human vehicle by utilizing senses

Well personally I believe the brain does that. I myself believe the brain function and awareness to be separate phenomena. More specifically I believe cognition to be separate from awareness.

even without senses,, one is still conscious and aware though

Yeah thoughts still arise without the traditional senses. That doesn't definitively say the brain isn't producing thought.

you are still "turned on" and i believe its the looping and conserving of energy in the human system which does this,.,.,.

Can you elaborate on this. I am interested I am just not sure I understand.

remove a computer from its energy source ,.,.. or remove a human from its energy source and in little time that computer and human will no longer be able to function as the system once able was

Which is another way of saying kills the brain kill the self.

But with that analogy the computer was turned off but that doesn't mean the software used for that specific computer was lost i.e awareness. Yes that is very metaphysical. I do not profess my belief to be anything but that.

the biggest problem to me is,,, how was unconscious matter able to construct/invent a "technological" system of controlled awareness?

How did consciousness first arise from matter?

Yeah that's a very deep and profound question. No less deep and profound as asking where did all of reality come from.

It's an amazing prospect. We know it happened but we don't have an absolute answer as to why or how...

Personally I believe in an eternal physical Universe and I believe 'awareness' to be an intrinsic emergent property of the very fabric of existence.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"Well personally I believe the brain does that. I myself believe the brain function and awareness to be separate phenomena. More specifically I believe cognition to be separate from awareness"

really? so you believe you are not aware of cognition? I would agree if you mean unaware of the exact neuronic process' of cognition,,, i agree there are separate parts of the brain,,,, these may be outdated or archaic but perhaps terms like unconscious and subconscious can be used to describe activities,,,, but to me this is a kind of tautology when i have to say,, everything you are aware of occurring of the brain you must be aware of.,,., we can only be aware of what we are aware of,.,.,. if you are simply saying process' go on that we are not aware of that contribute to our awareness,,, i will say we are aware of it via its contribution,, even if its so non chalant that we dont need to stress over it, we can stress over it,, because we are aware of it

reply to post by ImaFungi

really? so you believe you are not aware of cognition?

Saying I am not aware of cognition is nonsensical of what awareness means...

So no I am not saying that.

I am suggesting the idea that the brain produces thoughts and stores memories and that is what we call self and personality, but awareness in of itself is a distinctly separate experience.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"Yeah thoughts still arise without the traditional senses. That doesn't definitively say the brain isn't producing thought. "

yes i have never suggested consciousness or awareness comes from anywhere but the brain,.,.

i was more marveling with how consciousness is such a continual process,, in the sense that,, if awareness is the prime, original, simple, lacking of thought but in itself pure continual stream of awareness,,, one constant thought without thinking,,, information from the senses of the external world seen as a reflection in the mind uninterupted or disturbed but just as reality or truth,.,.,..,

"Can you elaborate on this. I am interested I am just not sure I understand. "

im mentioned the looping and turned on because.,.,., first of all i have heard conciousness, its possibility of existence and its mechanical function, describe as a self collapsing wave,,,, which reminds me of a feedback loop,,., its a constant check and balance,.,, if conciousness is a mechanical phenomena which requires energy to produce its steady stream of awareness,,, which is not only the constant image in the mind constructed by mainly the sense of sight because we are aware without sight,, or if you know of deprivation tanks ,, we are still aware of our awareness,, hence feedback loop to infinity,, infinity untill the systems energy source gets cut off or entropy collapses the matter our system is constructed of,,.,.,. ok so i think i was saying once we are born we are turned on,,,, our consciousness does not fully lose awareness untill we die,,,,, unless we get knocked unconscious ( which im sure neuroscientists know all about what happens and why), and sleep,,, which sometimes we are conscious during sleep in dreams,,.,,,. so during waking consciousness,.,.,. energy and mechanics allow the system of optics and our brain,, to project an uninterrupted view/stream of awareness of our surroundings,, inwards into our mind,.,,

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"Which is another way of saying kills the brain kill the self.

But with that analogy the computer was turned off but that doesn't mean the software used for that specific computer was lost i.e awareness. Yes that is very metaphysical. I do not profess my belief to be anything but that."

yes but the brain also depends on other things,,,., stab the heart the brain will eventually die.... because there becomes an interruption in the entire system,.,,. but when it comes down to it,,, the brain is the manager/controller of the system,,, interpreter of the information it can dissect, receive, and store,, damage the brain enough and the self that is the human being wont be able to move or speak or do anything,,,

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"Personally I believe in an eternal physical Universe and I believe 'awareness' to be an intrinsic emergent property of the very fabric of existence"

thats a cool thing to say and believe in..... we can chat about this but i dont wanna get to far off topic ya know?

Too true....We are starting to grasp our true potential. Nice.

S&F

well done.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


"I am suggesting the idea that the brain produces thoughts and stores memories and that is what we call self and personality, but awareness in of itself is a distinctly separate experience"

ok thanks for clarifying,, this makes sense to me now,, and i think you are right,.,.,,. but at some point are we not aware of every thought and memory we have?? this is where the idea of subconscious mind comes in because you can answer that question no,,,,,, the subconscious mind stores more data then we can consciously access with our awareness while we are observing,,, so in your memory banks,, you may have stored every detail of a certain situation,, and you consciously may not remember all of those details,,, but something may trigger your memory,,, or these memories may come out in dreams,..,,,,.,. its amazing how distinct memories can be,,, how we can remember 3d events in time with colors and emotions and dialogues and smells from when we were childs,,,. and we can store thousands and thousands of these packets of information and access at any time.

Something very pertinent is missing in this thread. Acknowledging the presence of electricity in the brain. Less biology, more physics. When it comes to the brain, we are talking more than an organic mass here. The amount of energy and electricity fired off is in itself mesmerizing and perhaps a road to the answers to some of these questions. When pondering the ability and behavior of te brain, one must not limit to merely a physical connection to the rest of the body. No, it's much more complex and powerful than that. It has the ability and power to connect not only to the host, but to the rest of the universe as well. And I would argue that animals are much more aware to our surroundings and capabilities than we are. They're able to connect, communicate , learn and observe by using more than just their physical surroundings and traditions. They use a sixth sense, intuition and instinct. They're able to communicate with and understand even better than we can them lol take dogs for example, they react to your energy. You don't have to say or do a thig in order for them to react by what you are giving off. THAT'S what we need to tap into. And it isn't evil like some would argue. Even Jesus Christ himself meditated regularly.

reply to post by LadyMachiatto

Great post !
I believe that's right. And I believe that there is more to it
than neuroscience's current understanding.

Theosophy Kabbalah and good old Witchcraft
have a few beliefs that somewhat mirror what the Op is saying.
As in, there is a spiritual being on another plane of existence driving this
human shell, with the orders being received by the remote control brain.

reply to post by neoholographic

I think you are right in that the human brain is hardware, and it must be controlled by a remote source. Since becoming aware that I am the Spirit, and only inhabit this body, I can easily see that. If the body/brain is the hardware, like a computer tower is hardware, and the Spirit is software/operating system, then understanding it easy.

reply to post by neoholographic


A simpler analogy would be your computer, or laptop..

Note - There are automatic functions in your computer, and then functions which you control. Auto Functions = Liver, Heart, Lungs - CPU, GPU, RAM. Then there is obviously semi-Auto functions.. I'm not gonna go in to detail here.

Automatic VS Manual

Who has control over the non-auto functions of your computer? The answer is you.

Who has control over the non-auto functions of your body? The answer is you? Who is you? Ask the Chinese.

This question is very old, and countless books have been written on it.

Some believe it is a waste of time, these people believe that the Universe wasn't designed/programmed for us to see our real selves from within this Universe. They give this Universe a purpose, some argue it is a test, some argue it is a punishment...

The list goes on, this subject is very deep.

reply to post by neoholographic


Ive always thought the same. What if consciousness is a field? The brain acts as a filter

Ive also wondered, could the brain and the soul be linked through some type of quantum entanglement? And this is how the soul or consciousness interacts with the brain.

Wouldnt it be cool if when we die, we wake up in a classroom "hooked up" to some type of highly advanced virtual reality game/machine.

"Congratulations class, you just graduated the first grade." Now time for 2nd grade.


Also, have you ever felt eternity in a single moment?

Basically we all have a soul. Yeah?