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71-year-old taken to the ground for questioning Paul Ryan

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posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by HIWATT
They guy was pissed off and had a right to stand up and be [snip] HEARD.


No, he does not have the right to be heard. He has the right to speak but no one is forced to listen. His right to speak is not (necessarily) a right to be disruptive. His right to be speak does not trump the rights of others. They do not have to sit there and listen to him. They have the right to hear the person they came to see speak, in other words to gather in peace without someone being there to purposefully disrupt that. His right to be heard is not a demand that others be silent.


Originally posted by HIWATT
Not assaulted by cops


We don't know he was assaulted. We have a claim but no evidence to back it up.


Originally posted by HIWATT
and physically removed


No, he does not. If he is being disruptive, he does not possess any such right.


Originally posted by HIWATT
and then LAUGHED AT.


He especially does not have the right to not be laughed at.
edit on 13-8-2012 by WingedBull because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by pointr97
Interesting point you make about blacking out my posts if you wished, but it is my thread, so if you blacked out my posts, there would not be a thread for you to post in. The post I responded to was posted, no one blacked it out, it is there to be read by all. how can you associate the old man popping off to an elected representative and being drug away to me reposting a quote stopping at the point the poster gets juvenile?


Actually, I have a much better analogy for you. What you are suggesting, that this man's right to heard (a right no-one possesses...they have the right to speak, there is a difference) trumps the rights of everyone else, would be like you making the initial post, then everyone who disagrees with you is allowed to post their criticisms, along with editing your initial post, without you being allowed to respond or anyone being allowed to defend you, and the mods not being allowed to stop your critics from being disruptive.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

“They think he’s [Ryan] the second coming of Christ and will support Romney more than they have previously,” said Bowen...


That is a pretty accurate description of how the Tea Party views Ryan and it is undeserved. He is a politician who has done absolutely nothing to distinguish himself in the 13 years he has served in Congress, aside from drafting a budget a year ago that he knew would never be passed. His reputation as a strong fiscal conservative is undeserved and he is even worse on civil liberties, despite his lip service to Ayn Rand.
edit on 13-8-2012 by WingedBull because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 06:44 AM
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That's just horrible! People should just be able to randomly interrupt a public speaker any time they want. Its not like the crowd in attendance actually wanted to hear what that Ryan guy had to say, anyway. And certainly, those people have no right to free assembly and Ryan has no right to free speech! They all came just to hear what some random old guy in the crowd had to say!

The politically motivated bull**** in here is so deep that you can forget the shovel, you'd need a damn backhoe to dig your way out. There has to be some degree of crowd control, up to and including forcible removal, or else these types of events are going to devolve into screaming matches in the first five minutes. Everyone knows that. People have a right to speak, but they have no right to be disruptive, because at that point, they're trampling on the rights of the speaker and of the rest of the crowd. He crossed that line and predictably and probably justifiably, security tossed him.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 06:48 AM
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Hi y'all,

I'm back. It seems this thread took a turn for the worse after I left last night but that's okay. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Like I said in earlier posts this issue is a political 'hot button'. No one likes to see a senior, who could've been our grandpa, taken away in cuffs. No one wants to see our SS go down the drain, especially those of us who won't even get a drop back in twenty years with the way it's going. Heck, will we even be a super power in 5 years?

The issue here is whether Tom Nielsen was in the right for interrupting Paul Ryan's speech at a private function and whether Ryan's comment was out of line.

The video only gives us a small snippet and was produced by Wisconsin Jobs Now. The function was in September 2011 and tickets were sold to this company who in turn passed them out to protesters. Tom Nielsen was a protester. Although he did have a ticket to attend he and other protesters were warned beforehand that they would be arrested if they became disruptive. No one knows what happened before this video was shot; Nielsen could have been heckling him from the start of the function and Ryan tried to reason with him. Who knows? Functions like these usually have a question/answer session afterward but Nielsen chose to ignore this. That was why he was taken away. I don't like Ryan's comment, it only shows his age and immaturity.

Three other people were arrested at this event but the video does not capture this. It is hard to make sound judgements when some of the facts are missing. I would like to view other videos of more functions that Ryan has held to see how he handles himself before passing judgement on him.

I am not a Romney/Ryan supporter. I will be voting Ron Paul. I just hate to see people jumping all over a video that we really don't know everything about.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by HIWATT
yet he WAS assaulted... just for being "uppity"


We do not know he was assaulted. You can only assume but you have no evidence for it.


Originally posted by HIWATT
Those rent a cops


Those were cops not private security.


Originally posted by HIWATT
are lucky that guy wasn't a vet - they might have been picking their teeth up off the floor.


Yes, because all veterans are unstoppable fighting machines who have the right to punch anyone who displeases them.


Originally posted by HIWATT
I know if that would have been me that's exactly what would have happened.


Relevant


Originally posted by HIWATT
As soon as they laid hand on him, they were in the wrong.


No, he does not have the right to force people to listen to him.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by Domo1
post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.






Domo1- What happened?!!



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by pointr97
 


Happy we got this on here, this video is absolutely appalling and really shows the type of person Ryan is especially after he cracks the joke at the end. This man should never be in any position of power that is clear. Douche bag end of story.
edit on 13-8-2012 by NoJoker13 because: spelling



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:28 AM
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Double post.... Lame...
edit on 13-8-2012 by Milkflavour because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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I think anyone saying this guy had his "ass kicked" or was "slammed to the ground" is sensationalising somewhat... We didn't even see what happened as he was handcuffed (notice I said handcuffed and not arrested, there's a big difference. It's quite possible they only cuffed him until he was off the premises). Using emotive language to provoke a reaction in others is the kind of manipulation most on here would jump all over if it was the MSM doing it... I think we have to try and be objective about these things...

That said, this is an obvious infringement of the guy's right to free speech. Is it suddenly not allowed to voice an opinion? Is it now unacceptable to feel angry these days? Anger is a legitimate emotional response to certain situations and, this guy evidently feels strongly about the continued pressure by governments to cut support for those in need. I think he had a right to voice his opinion and he had a right to feel angry.

The speaker should have dealt with it much better in my opinion and I agree with the post earlier that said he could have simply acknowledged the guy, explained that he would be happy to hear his point of view if he was to calm down a little, and gave him the opportunity to speak his mind... That way you turn a mini-crisis/upset into a positive situation that benefits everyone..... I think the joke is a little disrespectful but then, most jokes are and I don't think we can start censoring humour... Besides, I think the real issue is the fact that this guy was refused his right to express his opinion....

Edit: I had missed Texasgirl's post above and, having read that I must say, if accurate, that provides a little context and potentially changes things a little. I shall take it as a lesson to research a bit before forming an opinion based on a 30 second video. Thanks for the input and apologies for jumping to conclusions about the nature of this incident.
edit on 13-8-2012 by Milkflavour because: General balls-up.. Including accidentally quoting myself instead of editing and generally making a huge mess



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by Domo1
 

I would be pissed off if Ron Paul did the same thing. No matter who made a joke at this man's expense it would not be funny but disgusting!



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Milkflavour
Using emotive language to provoke a reaction in others is the kind of manipulation most on here would jump all over if it was the MSM doing it... I think we have to try and be objective about these things...


Exactly. We should not accept that language simply because it targets a politician we do not like. In doing so, we allow ourselves to be controlled, to be played.


Originally posted by Milkflavour
That said, this is an obvious infringement of the guy's right to free speech. Is it suddenly not allowed to voice an opinion? Is it now unacceptable to feel angry these days?...


Certainly he has those rights. However, he does not have to be disruptive (necessarily) nor does he have the right to be heard.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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So many people riding high and proud on their horses here because of course they have never raised their voices or stepped out of line. At the end of the day my guess is America is in for another four years of magnificent lies, deception, thievery, scandals and wars regardless of who is elected.

Just another day at the office for our "elected" politicians. But don't worry, just raise your hand and make sure not to speak out of turn and government will make it all better.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Milkflavour

Originally posted by Milkflavour
I think anyone saying this guy had his "ass kicked" or was "slammed to the ground" is sensationalising somewhat... We didn't even see what happened as he was handcuffed (notice I said handcuffed and not arrested, there's a big difference. It's quite possible they only cuffed him until he was off the premises). Using emotive language to provoke a reaction in others is the kind of manipulation most on here would jump all over if it was the MSM doing it... I think we have to try and be objective about these things...

That said, this is an obvious infringement of the guy's right to free speech. Is it suddenly not allowed to voice an opinion? Is it now unacceptable to feel angry these days? Anger is a legitimate emotional response to certain situations and, this guy evidently feels strongly about the continued pressure by governments to cut support for those in need. I think he had a right to voice his opinion and he had a right to feel angry.

The speaker should have dealt with it much better in my opinion and I agree with the post earlier that said he could have simply acknowledged the guy, explained that he would be happy to hear his point of view if he was to calm down a little, and gave him the opportunity to speak his mind... That way you turn a mini-crisis/upset into a positive situation that benefits everyone..... I think the joke is a little disrespectful but then, most jokes are and I don't think we can start censoring humour... Besides, I think the real issue is the fact that this guy was refused his right to express his opinion....


Edit: I had missed Texasgirl's post above and, having read that I must say, if accurate, that provides a little context and potentially changes things a little. I shall take it as a lesson to research a bit before forming an opinion based on a 30 second video. Thanks for the input and apologies for jumping to conclusions about the nature of this incident.




No problem! I did do research on this and that is what I found out. As far as having the right to speak out I agree but these days disruptions can get ugly if it's not nipped in the bud. Anger can easily escalate into an out-of-control fight.

That being said, Ryan's comment was pretty shameful. It only shows his immaturity. I don't think Nielsen heard it, though, since he was already out of the room.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:47 AM
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It isnt Paul's fault that the government programs are failing. So, don't get pissed at paul because the government is on the brink of failure. All we can do is TRY to fix it. We don't know if it will work or not, but spending hasn't worked, so conservation has to be attempted.

By the way, if a man jumped up screaming like that, he should be detained until he calms down .... how do we know he doesn't have a gun? He should have, under normal social ' norms ' , should have gotten Paul's attention when appropriate and let him attempt to answer what ever question he had.

However, all i heard this man do was scream i spent my life paying into government programs.
edit on 13-8-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by pointr97
I guess this sets the tone for what we should expect. Are we really surprised? The old man didn't exactly use tact by expressing his view, but I can understand the frustration he is feeling to watch everything you work for get pissed away and they don't care. They (both sides) just don't care about anything other than staying in control.



He was not aggressive, just loud, Paul could have done a bang up job at resolving the situation by actually communicating with the man and listening to him, but no, let us make an old joke at his expense.
edit on 12-8-2012 by pointr97 because: (no reason given)


How misleading.

Paul Ryan did not order the man removed, the police did that on their own. Had nothing to do with Ryan.

But, just ignore that though, and keep marching forward.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by pointr97
 


I understand the guys frustration but he was clearly out of order, try that at an Obama event and you'll have the Secret Service all over your ass in a heartbeat after getting two words out of your mouth.



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 08:20 AM
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Why do I see so many ATS right wingers in here defending Ryan on this?
Two years ago you were the same people defending every angry old TEA bagger that got up and screamed and yelled at any town meeting they could get into.
What happened to all that fun?
Oh, they were yelling at Democrats then, huh?



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Those 'police' were hired security by Team Ryan. Maybe off-duty, but the only reason they were there were they were hired to be there. So the responsibility still goes to Ryan. Aside from the fact the hired security would immediately usher anyone out for speaking out and taking them down to the floor, Ryan's extremely poor joke at this man's expense shows how callous and cavalier he is to the plight of working people in this country.

"Screw you 71-year-old guy, billionaires need another tax break, so ante up!"



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Ouch!

Talk about a bad start.

Guess what PR, a whole lot of this awaits you on the road. Your policies are despicable, and if you come to my town, I'll be there to join the protest.

People like PR are the ones who created this mess, and growing numbers of us are fed up with elitists like PR.

Good job Mitt, you have guaranteed Obama a second term.







 
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