Twin Ancient Cultures On Opposite Sides Of The Pacific

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posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy
Native Americans appear to be as mixed as any other group of people. It could then be easily assumed their ancestors came from more than just Siberia.

Please make that assumption. It is now the hottest debate in North American archaeology and proof that the system works...unlike taking a book of ever-changing Middle Eastern folk tales and chasing the evidence to create a fit.




posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by WarminIndye
Native Americans appear to be as mixed as any other group of people. It could then be easily assumed their ancestors came from more than just Siberia.

Please make that assumption. It is now the hottest debate in North American archaeology and proof that the system works...unlike taking a book of ever-changing Middle Eastern folk tales and chasing the evidence to create a fit.

Hey there JohnnyCanuck,
Could you repost that MtDna map , that you posted on another thread, please.
It illustrates just how diverse the native American genome really is.



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by punkinworks10
Hey there JohnnyCanuck,
Could you repost that MtDna map , that you posted on another thread, please.
It illustrates just how diverse the native American genome really is.

Done!



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Thank you sir
I love that graphic, it has lot of info as to who we are and where we have been and how we got to where we are



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


anyone notice the couple sore thumbs in that picture?

specifically, the nivkhs or NI circle. They appear to be the only ones with that shade of green. I wonder why their mtdna is so unique?



posted on Aug, 23 2012 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 


While the bible may reference real people and places, it does not necessarily make it "true".

If you do a true/false table, part of something can be true, yet still be false. Same with the bible. I really dont believe a burning bush talked to anyone for example. I can only pray that is an allegory though.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by punkinworks10
 


While I could agree, I won't, specifically based on argument alone, my friend.

The notation offered was that. A notation of something I find curious.

Shoshone Peoples today, seeking their GOLD under the claim of Land Ownership (aka Sacred Lands) , in the RICHEST GOLD PRODUCING REGION in NORTH AMERICA, just a stone through away from a major traffic route, as you happened to point out, and they SHARE, despite the New Interpretation applied, the name of an Egyptian Ruler from a Period of Time that is within the period that the Minoans, (pardon me, Freudian-isms
), the Phoenicians where employed by one of the Wealthiest Personages on this planet, whom also employed the Egyptians or at worst, where part of the "Collective" working under Solomon.

Sure, it just happenstance. That's it.


Ciao

Shane

P.S. Don't worry my Friend. I do understand how this could become a touchy issue, and I mean no disrespect to any First Nation Peoples. This is a Discussion. Pointing out things that point to either the Americas where visited by "Other, Old World, Cultures", and if those interactions could have lead to the findings the OP offered in his opening thread, or as some would offer, Great Ideas are just that and these structural testaments are the same for this reason.

As the choir seems to vocalize, they see no proof anyone except wandering Siberians, or Vikings ever coming here. This of course is not all that can be found, and I expect at some point, we are going to be able to acknowledge "Visitations" occurred. Despite preconceived notions of Historical Records "CREATED" by ones which wrote those Protectionist Accounts to garner Profits and Renown.


As I noted much earlier, There is of course another option, but that seems to have been forgotten. OMG



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Nice Pie Chart Johnny. How's Life???

Anyways my Friend. I reviewed this, and frankly the amazing thing I saw, was one Pure Group of Peoples, that show no interaction with anyone. The Eskimo. I would had thought Leif or Eric would have left their tag in that Gene Pool.

It is also curious, that outside of this one "Pure" group, the Polynesians are also quite a distinct Group, aside from some "encounters" with others.

I also enjoy the liberties utilized when presenting "EVIDENCE" of this type Johnny.


........ The data in this chart is supposed to represent..........


I suppose that suggests fictionalizations and general assumptions rule...


This is just rich my friend.

Supposing coming from some one like You, OF ALL PEOPLE. It surely is the End Days.


Ciao

Shane



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Harte
 


Funny enough I'm not on some 'Biblical Archaeology'...I'm not even a Christian as my avatar would plainly tell you that.


As my buddy Shane indicated, I was referring to your source, and not to yourself.

Shane,
Barry Fell was a marine biologist. He was not an "expert" in any ancient languages, and once translated what he called "Ogham" over the telephone based on verbal descriptions!

Harte


While you may be comfortable with your belief Harte, and have the ability to dismiss what the man Barry Fell has contributed, I see past the Little Things.

Obviously, his interpretation of a Stick, isn't highlight material, as you point out, time, and time again. (Yes, You are repeating yourself with Old Material my Friend
)

Despite this, he has some fantastic observations that unlike the balance of academia, have resulted in something beginning to be explored further, or swept under the rug due to being absurd.

An example, maybe the San Telmo Stone, which was found in Portugal


Decipherment of the first three lines of San Telmo stele in Spain, an example of the Iberian texts, undecipherable until the match between the letters and the signs of the Algonquian syllabary was noticed in 1979. The translation reads: (1) House of the Apothecary, (2) And of remedies for illnesses, (3) Buy from me herbal medicines.

Here's the storyline.


It is relevant to state here that when Basque and other Spanish scholars sent these undeciphered inscriptions to me, nothing was known in Spain or Portugal as to the language of the writing. The solution (Fig 89 & Fig 90) proved to be one that depended wholly on the fact that the Cree, the Ojibway, and some other Amerindian tribes have preserved this same syllabary today, and still use it in their letters, their newspapers, and other contexts. It is mistakenly attributed to the missionary James Evans, a Welshman who is supposed to have "invented" the script in 1841. What Evans really did, as Fell had noted in Saga America, was to preserve and adopt the writing system that he found already in use among his flock. For this he deserves great credit, but it is wrong to say he invented the syllabary. The system of writing goes back far beyond the earliest Roman inscriptions in Spain and Portugal. It continued in use among Basques until some time in the early Middle Ages. The last known example of its use is on a tablet now held in the San Telmo Museum (Fig 89 & Fig 90). Using the Cree syllabary as a guide (Fig. 88), Fell transliterated the signs into the phonetic equivalents in Latin script, and then recognized the language as Basque. Its translation appeared to be that shown in the illustrations, and Fell submitted his decipherment of the tablets to Dr. Imanol Agiŕe, the Basque etymologist and epigrapher. he confirmed the decipherment and provided a modern Basque rendering of the same text. (This, of course, is in marked contrast to the views of those archaeologists who state that the Basque inscriptions found in America are marks made by roots or by plowshares. For the views of linguistic scholars on the one hand, and archaeologists on the other, reference may be made to volume 9 of the Epigraphic Society's Occasional Publications, entitled Epigraphy Confrontation in America [1981]). A possible means of Iberian influence on the Norsemen settlements in Canada may have been the Algonquians. For, as an inscription cut on Woden-lithi's site shows, the actions of the Norsemen colonists were of interest to the Algonquians, and an inscription in a language similar to Ojibwa, using the Basque (and therefore the Cree-Ojibwa) syllabary (see Table 3), makes reference to Woden-lithi's departure by ship. As already noted, Woden-lithi's relations with the Algonquians appear to have been cordial, and he refers as a "foreign-friend" (Fig. 20 )to one whom he has carved.


So what does this suggest?

Using ancient syllabary of the Cree-Ojibwa, they where able to decipher the San Telmo Stele.

Go Figure? How does that work, if not for Ancient Trans Atlantic interaction between the Old and New World.

And look, BARRY FELL is noted, and not only that, these findings have been confirmed by others of expertise.

Not everything is a Stick on the Phone Harte.


Ciao

Shane



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 
Nice Pie Chart Johnny. How's Life???

Life is good Shane. You?

You'll note that I posted the chart in response to a request. I do believe that I added qualifiers to it when I first posted it. I think the key is that it is representational, and I am not personally qualified to swear by every shading and nuance. It tells a story, though, and if you can challenge any of the notions presented...please, fire away. That's how science works.

Best have your facts straight, though, and I'm not sure that Fell provided a stable foundation for your house of iconoclasm.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


While the bible may reference real people and places, it does not necessarily make it "true".

If you do a true/false table, part of something can be true, yet still be false. Same with the bible. I really dont believe a burning bush talked to anyone for example. I can only pray that is an allegory though.


You may notice that I was simply applying the historicity in the Bible and nothing more. I did not apply any theological statements, only the history part. Can you believe, just for a moment, that I am capable of doing that?

When you read the Bible, understanding especially that the Old Testament, which is the Tanakh, was written in Hebrew and therefore Hebrew was the language of names. But some places in the Bible still exist while some were extinct. For instance, the word Phoenician is not in the OT, but a people known as Syro-pheonician are found in the NT. At least, the Jews of the time were aware of the Phoenicians. Given the close proximity, they knew each other. But going with names in Hebrew, just because the Bible gives a name for a person or group in Hebrew does not mean they did not exist. The word Hibiru has been found all over the ancient world, and now is widely accepted as the Hebrews. Many battles that Saul and David were in has been proven to have occurred, from non-Biblical sources. So we cannot dismiss the Bible simply because it contains theology or what some say are fairy tales. If we have to dismiss anything because of fairy tales, then we should also dismiss all of the Egyptian steles, the Akkadian and Assyrian steles, tablets and histories. We must reject everything if they are all based in fairy tales.

But the Bible is unique in that it is solely rejected for that same reason. If we must accept Egyptian history because we find history written on their temples, pyramids and pillars and accept the theology that comes with it, then the Bible should be considered as well. Do you see how that is a double standard?

We KNOW from Egyptian sources that the Hibirus existed, that David existed, that the Phoenicians existed, that ALL the Bible states about history is true, from Egyptian and Assyrian sources. So now, let's stick to the history of the Bible, as I proposed. Otherwise we shall also ignore Roman history because it was based in polytheist religion, as well as Greek history. I would be compelled, by the logic you present, to debase and ignore all history because all history is based in polytheistic fairy tales. I will reject the concept of foot races for the Olympics because Hercules invented them.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy
I never actually used the term "Biblical Archeologist". I don't think I did, anyway. I merely pointed out what the historical views of the Bible are.

Nobody said you used the term "Biblical Archaeologist."

I stated that your source was a Biblical Archaeologist.


Originally posted by WarminIndy
It is amusing to me how people say the Bible is historically inaccurate, and yet it names real people and real events that have been proven.

The names of people that were alive and places that existed when the various books were written are (usually) correct.

Care to present evidence that Solomon ever lived? Surely you can verify Noah. No? How about David? Jesus? Moses? No? Thought not.


Originally posted by WarminIndy
Yes, all Biblical Archeologists have an agenda...
But no one questions the Egyptologists in their quests.

And what questions would you like to put to them? What, exactly, do you believe their "quest" is?


Originally posted by WarminIndy
While Harte mentioned DNA testing, I wanted to address that. We know that Native Americans living on the West Coast share DNA with Siberians, no big surprise there, but DNA testing on Eastern Tribes show a much different picture.


In 1997, a fifth mtDNA haplogroup was identified in Native Americans. This group, called ‘"X," is present in three percent of living Native Americans. Haplogroup X was not then found in Asia, but was found only in Europe and the Middle East where two to four percent of the population carry it. In those areas, the X haplogroup has primarily been found in parts of Spain, Bulgaria, Finland, Italy, and Israel. In July 2001, a research letter was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, relating that a few people with the ‘X' type had been identified in a tribe located in extreme southern Siberia.




H, I, J, K, N, R, T, U, V, W, X: Indo-European A, B, C, D, X: Native American/Asian L: African M, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, O, P, Q, Z: East Asian P, Q: Oceana, Pacific Islands, Papua New Guinea N: Australian Article Source: EzineArticles.com...


Native Americans share four haplotypes with Africa and one with East Asian, except for the X, which is shared in Indo-European.

Do you not read your own sources?
From the quote you yourself posted:


In July 2001, a research letter was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, relating that a few people with the ‘X' type had been identified in a tribe located in extreme southern Siberia.


The X haplotype found in about 15% of a single tribe in America developed here and is unrelated to the European X. It stems from the variant X found in Siberia, IIRC.

Sorry, but the Solutrean Hypothesis remains just that.


Originally posted by WarminIndy
Native Americans appear to be as mixed as any other group of people. It could then be easily assumed their ancestors came from more than just Siberia.

Certainly true, considering only a tiny portion have the X haplotype at all.

However, it is also true that the Siberians with X haplotype make up only a portion of their culture as well.

Harte



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by WarminIndy


I stated that your source was a Biblical Archaeologist.


Socio-Political Archeology
"Towards a Socio-Political History of Archaeology in the Middle East: The Development of Archaeological Practice and Its Impacts on Local Communities in Syria"

No longer is Archaeology regarded as a neutral or a purely scientific discipline, but as a process influenced by the aims of its practitioners, who are, in turn, deeply affected by contemporary intellectual, social and political agendas. As well, research undertaken on archaeological practice in non-western settings, that is closely related to colonial issues, has highlighted how archaeology could be a tool of scientific, cultural, political and socio-economic domination (e.g. Diaz-Andreu 2007; Kane 2003; Silberman 1989; Trigger 1984).


You are right, there are agendas, but the agendas are on both sides of the fence, even secular archeologists. You have to accept that secularism in itself is an agenda intended to disprove the Bible.

In addition, Syrian Antiquities Law (Qânûn al-'athâr) adopted in 1963, laid down the rights and duties of archaeological missions. From 1963 on, archaeological excavations were subject to a licence which could only be granted by the antiquities authorities. This special licence is granted on the basis of the scientific and financial capacities of the applicants (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 42 to 44). The law also laid down the rules applicable to the archaeologists, such as: the obligation to return all the discoveries to Syrian authorities and to publish their research; to protect and maintain the sites they were excavating; to cooperate and accept the presence of a representative of the GDAM; and finally, to pay the salaries of guards (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 46, 47 and 51)


You have to remember that Syrian is an Islamic nation so much of the archeology there is also to disprove the rights of Jews living in Israel.

The process of public and national appropriation of archaeology became even stronger after Hafez al-Assad and the Alawis minority seized power in 1970–71. Archaeology and history participated in the legitimization of the new power regime, and the construction of an Arab and multicultural identity superseded local particularities. The secular character of the Syrian state, and social and territorial fragmentation, led the Alawis minority holding power to define the national identity using elements other than religious or ethnic considerations (Valter 2002). Archaeology and history also served in justifying territorial claims, guided by the idea of an 'historical Syria', the cradle and crossroads of civilizations, and covering Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. In recognition of this the President registered the protection of antiquities in the Syrian Constitution in 1972.



Care to present evidence that Solomon ever lived? Surely you can verify Noah. No? How about David? Jesus? Moses? No? Thought not.

The secular archeologist Russell Adams seems to have disproven the the theory about the Edomites and their time frame. The Bible states that David warred with the Edomites.
Russell Adams

Yet by coincidence, Prof. Adams of Hamilton's McMaster University says, he and an international team of colleagues fit into place a significant piece of the puzzle of human history in the Middle East -- unearthing information that points to the existence of the Bible's vilified Kingdom of Edom at precisely the time the Bible says it existed, and contradicting widespread academic belief that it did not come into being until 200 years later.

Who was on this team?

Prof. Adams, Thomas Levy of the University of California at San Diego and Mohammad Najjar of the Jordanian Department of Antiquities

And then states

Says Prof. Adams: "This battle between the Israelites and the Edomites, although not possible to document, is typical of the sort of border conflicts between Iron Age states. And the evidence of our new dates at least proves that it may, in fact, be possible to place the Edomites in the 10th century [BC] or earlier, which now supports the chronology of the biblical accounts. "It is intriguing that at Khirbat en-Nahas, our large Iron Age fort is dated to just this period, suggesting conflict as a central concern even at a remote copper-production site." He concludes: "We're not out to prove the Bible right or wrong. We're not trying to be controversial. We're just trying to be good anthropologists and scientists, and tell the story of our archeological site."

A SECULAR archeologist made this statement.

Were you answering for me, trying to preempt my statements?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Harte
Shane,
Barry Fell was a marine biologist. He was not an "expert" in any ancient languages, and once translated what he called "Ogham" over the telephone based on verbal descriptions!

Harte


While you may be comfortable with your belief Harte, and have the ability to dismiss what the man Barry Fell has contributed, I see past the Little Things.

Obviously, his interpretation of a Stick, isn't highlight material, as you point out, time, and time again. (Yes, You are repeating yourself with Old Material my Friend
)

Tell me about it! I'm pretty tired of having to do so too.

Originally posted by Shane

Despite this, he has some fantastic observations that unlike the balance of academia, have resulted in something beginning to be explored further, or swept under the rug due to being absurd.

An example, maybe the San Telmo Stone, which was found in Portugal


Decipherment of the first three lines of San Telmo stele in Spain, an example of the Iberian texts, undecipherable until the match between the letters and the signs of the Algonquian syllabary was noticed in 1979. The translation reads: (1) House of the Apothecary, (2) And of remedies for illnesses, (3) Buy from me herbal medicines.

SNIP

Go Figure? How does that work, if not for Ancient Trans Atlantic interaction between the Old and New World.

And look, BARRY FELL is noted, and not only that, these findings have been confirmed by others of expertise.

Not everything is a Stick on the Phone Harte.


Ciao

Shane

You may believe that Fell was right in this instance, and you could be correct. However, (and you know there's always a "however") all I've ever been able to find on this is Fell's claims. The hypothesis is to this day not accepted, likely because more evidence is needed.

Again, as I've said many times, it's crazy to say such a thing is impossible, but it's also crazy to state that it's certain. The "certainties" mentioned previously, in this thread and hundreds of others, that the Phoenicians traded with American natives, that Africans came to South America, that Aborigines from Australia came to South America, that the Egyptians came to America, etc. - all these are simply fantasies.

But, sometimes fantasies come true. I remember this one time, back in the dorm at the University of Georgia...


Harte



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy

In addition, Syrian Antiquities Law (Qânûn al-'athâr) adopted in 1963, laid down the rights and duties of archaeological missions. From 1963 on, archaeological excavations were subject to a licence which could only be granted by the antiquities authorities. This special licence is granted on the basis of the scientific and financial capacities of the applicants (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 42 to 44). The law also laid down the rules applicable to the archaeologists, such as: the obligation to return all the discoveries to Syrian authorities and to publish their research; to protect and maintain the sites they were excavating; to cooperate and accept the presence of a representative of the GDAM; and finally, to pay the salaries of guards (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 46, 47 and 51)


You know, change a couple of words here and there and you could pretty well insert this into the Ontario Heritage Act, or the Ministry of Culture's Standards & Guidelines for Archaeologists. No Syrian guards, but a duty to protect the resources as well as a duty to consult with the First Nations. Need I really point out that 'secular archaeology' need not be about refuting the Bible...merely sidestepping a need to confirm it?

The greatest agenda that I have seen played out on this side of the pond is a consistent 18th century effort to disenfranchise the First Nations by calling their primacy upon the land into question. Granted, we all came from somewhere else, but Egyptians, Phoenicians and Giants (Oh My!)?

I'll allow the FN their dibs.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Life's being busy. Have been sent 11 Hours north of Toronto to work within the Abitibi Falls area for Hydro in Ontario. Seeing the wildlife, Moose, Caribou, Bears, Lynx, Fox, and what ever made someone think Ravens are not a food source. The things are a large as Turkeys.


I realized you did respond to a request from another, and okay, I am good with the lack of qualifiers you presented. The remarks where made, just due to if I posted that, without the "Qualifiers" I am sure your comments would have echoed my thoughts.


As for you, and my friend Harte, I do not dismiss anything, based on previous failings people have from time to time. I am not that Judgmental. I do not think any of us, PERIOD, are in any position to do so, but you may argue that.

We, you and me, have had discussions revolving around Peterborough and the Serpent Mounds. I understand your Position in respects to that site.

But, I think there is some things we still to this day, HAVE NO TRUE RESPONSE FOR.

When did the Native Population arrive here? I personally think 30000 Years ago would be fair, but I think a lot of what was, and what is today, left over from these years between, are black and white in comparison. I say this based on one important factor we tend to ignore, in general.

Everything we see today, is NEW, in regards to Habitation. We have only some minute detail of what Life truly was like say, 10000 Years ago. All evidence is beneath the Waterline.

Every day, we can find "another" site, beneath the Ocean's Tide, that suggest things we tend not even to comprehend as fathomable had occurred.

Recently, findings in Sweden or Norway, are now suggesting the Vikings made Stone FOOTINGS some 26' Deep into the Ocean Floor for Piers

Divers uncover evidence of Viking port


STOCKHOLM, Sweden, Aug. 21 (UPI) -- Archaeologists say 100-yard jetties found at the site of an ancient Viking village in Sweden suggest a coastal marketplace not previously imagined.

Researchers said divers working off the coast of the Bjorko island near Stockholm found jetties significantly longer than initially believed, which could provide valuable clues about Viking culture and habits, TheLocal.se reported Tuesday.

Marine archaeologists said they now estimate the village was 30 percent bigger than previously believed.

A marketplace may have been based in the waters of the harbor, they said.

"We have found stone piers in deep water and these were rare for this age," research leader Andreas Olsson said. "Timber, logs and poles as well.

"Previously, it was not thought that the Vikings could build stone piers at a depth of eight meters (26 feet)."

The jetties, five times longer than previously believed, show evidence of the Vikings' extensive trade system, Olsson said.


Those Phoenician Sailors, (My Bad, Freudian Slip), Viking Sailors are surprising us with the extensive nature of there seagoing abilities, and the extent of what they created to Harbor, their enterprise.

And that is only something not considered probable from a period of time just 1300 years ago.

I use this just as an example of what we know, and what is being found TODAY. Things that do not fit the conformist presumptions, and need to be re-addressed, rather than ignored just based on the consideration of some that it "doesn't fit" a pre-designed mold.

What is brought forth, as a History of some peoples right now, is at best, a recollection at some basic level of what ONCE was the situation. It generally pales in what is found today, and seems to have some level of concealment designed to be a protectant to save these peoples from "others" of ill intent.

The Black Sea, The Baltic, The Coast of the Yucatan, off shore Cuba, not to forget the entire coastline of this planet is giving evidence something BIG happened in a past time frame that exceeds what ever it is we consider the Cradle of Civilization to have been.

I am certain you do understand my point, and that you realize why it is I wish to note these curious thing out.

There are some out there that will indicate that Copper Mines of Antiquity in age are here in the Americas and Mined by peoples "OTHER THAN" the Native Population, who used less intense means of collecting the resource.

My intent earlier with the Gold Mine in Nevada, echos that ancient mining technique used by the Native Peoples. They picked the gold up off the ground. They did not "Mine" in the common Sense.

That land claim, made by the Shoshone is pointing to this as well.

We be looking again, in Nevada in the next post.

We will see what can be presented, and leave it at that.

Ciao

Shane



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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Now Now..The discussion is going so far away from the topic.
could you folks get back to the discussion please?

Let me ask you folks...

What faith does the Mother Temple at Besakih belong to or originate from??
Hinduism of course.

Since when has Hinduism Spread to South East Asia , especially the Indonesia.
4th century onwards.

There was continuous trade between the ancient indian kingdoms and the south east asian kingdoms for long.
there has been con tinous cultural exchanges over the centuries.

Tamil sailors have sailed across the south east asian seas for long and are rumored to have reached New Zealand even(which is still under debate, pls refer to the Tamil Bell

To have religious exchange of ideas is one thing.
to establish a religion in another nation requires a territorial presence.

Which was accomplished during the reign of King Rajendra Chola I of the Tamil Chola Dynasty in ancient India.



It is very evident from the architectural styles of the Balinese temples that the core style is borrowed from the South Indian temple architecture.But it heavily borrows from the Chinese and Japanese architecutral styles, which is evident from their roofing structures.

The gate which the authoi of the website has used to link to the south american styles is typical of south asian temple architecture, basically the Kirthimukha deptiction.

Here are a few of the Kirthimukha depiction in various south asian hindu temples.









One should note that in the Indonesian archipelago, there are different styles of Hindu temple architecture.
The Balinese temples have core south indian styles with a heavy dose of oriental(china/japan) influences.
But the Javense temples follow south indian temple architecture to a greater extent.


I do still wonder how the depiction of the Kirtimukha is similar to many depictions in pre-colombian / mesoamerican art.
It seems i cant find many (maybe i am bad at searching, and maybe some of you could help me out)
here is one such pre-columbian/mesoamerican depiction which is similar to the Kirthimukha depiction




The similarities between the dragons at the Balinese temples and the Quetzalcoatl depictions could be coincidence. i dont know. this is also something i want to know more about,



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by WarminIndy

In addition, Syrian Antiquities Law (Qânûn al-'athâr) adopted in 1963, laid down the rights and duties of archaeological missions. From 1963 on, archaeological excavations were subject to a licence which could only be granted by the antiquities authorities. This special licence is granted on the basis of the scientific and financial capacities of the applicants (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 42 to 44). The law also laid down the rules applicable to the archaeologists, such as: the obligation to return all the discoveries to Syrian authorities and to publish their research; to protect and maintain the sites they were excavating; to cooperate and accept the presence of a representative of the GDAM; and finally, to pay the salaries of guards (Syrian Law of Antiquities, Chapter 4, art. 46, 47 and 51)


You know, change a couple of words here and there and you could pretty well insert this into the Ontario Heritage Act, or the Ministry of Culture's Standards & Guidelines for Archaeologists. No Syrian guards, but a duty to protect the resources as well as a duty to consult with the First Nations. Need I really point out that 'secular archaeology' need not be about refuting the Bible...merely sidestepping a need to confirm it?

The greatest agenda that I have seen played out on this side of the pond is a consistent 18th century effort to disenfranchise the First Nations by calling their primacy upon the land into question. Granted, we all came from somewhere else, but Egyptians, Phoenicians and Giants (Oh My!)?

I'll allow the FN their dibs.


I am descended from Native Americans, so sometimes it makes me wonder. I also descend from a lot of other groups as well, so to me saying someone is mixed, I fully understand what it means. Now, what I want to assert is this point, we know they came here from somewhere else. We do not know exactly when, but they did. I never mentioned the Solutrean theory, as someone else assumed I was referring to.

What we do know is that artifacts are found in the Americas that was not part of the culture of the peoples here. Those things we really have to address, how did they get here? I am not an alien theorist, so I have trouble with that one. Actually, I am kind of on the fence about aliens because there are things that we experience as humans that defy explanation.

We can pass the artifacts off as fakes, but many times they have been proven as real. For instance, the Red Bird Petroglyphs in Kentucky. That is in an area my family has lived at for 200 years and I can tell you, the people there are not educated enough to be able to fabricate it.

I think you and I can agree on this point, ancient peoples migrated many times to many locations.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy
We can pass the artifacts off as fakes, but many times they have been proven as real. For instance, the Red Bird Petroglyphs in Kentucky. That is in an area my family has lived at for 200 years and I can tell you, the people there are not educated enough to be able to fabricate it.
I think you and I can agree on this point, ancient peoples migrated many times to many locations.

I appreciate your comments, and the mention of the Red Bird Petroglyphs. with which I was unfamiliar. Still, a wiki note brings forward the same observation I had made:

However, it has also been argued that finding eight different languages inscribed in one place is highly unlikely, and that the claims are fanciful interpretations of the evidence. The inscriptions on the rock have been compared to other Cherokee inscriptions in the area, and it has been suggested that those on the rock have been altered in modern times. The interpretation that the petroglyphs represent Old World inscriptions has been linked to 18th century arguments that the Cherokee Nation had no right to live in Kentucky, as an ancient white race settled here before them (emphasis mine) en.wikipedia.org...-Tankersley-3

In Canada, there was some semblance of legality in settling with the First Nations...not to say they weren't cheated anyway. The tendency in the US was to find 'historical' evidence to disenfranchise them, removing the need to sign treaties. This may well be yet another example.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck




I appreciate your comments, and the mention of the Red Bird Petroglyphs. with which I was unfamiliar. Still, a wiki note brings forward the same observation I had made:

However, it has also been argued that finding eight different languages inscribed in one place is highly unlikely, and that the claims are fanciful interpretations of the evidence. The inscriptions on the rock have been compared to other Cherokee inscriptions in the area, and it has been suggested that those on the rock have been altered in modern times. The interpretation that the petroglyphs represent Old World inscriptions has been linked to 18th century arguments that the Cherokee Nation had no right to live in Kentucky, as an ancient white race settled here before them (emphasis mine) en.wikipedia.org...-Tankersley-3

In Canada, there was some semblance of legality in settling with the First Nations...not to say they weren't cheated anyway. The tendency in the US was to find 'historical' evidence to disenfranchise them, removing the need to sign treaties. This may well be yet another example.


My maternal grandmother's family is from the same area. I have been there many times. I can say this, in that area in which this was found, which is part of the Buckhorn Lake, there are not many people who could have done that in the 1800s as most people in that part of Appalachian Kentucky were barely able to read and write in English. So maybe an outsider came in and did it? Not very likely as one would have to know the area, where to walk to and how to avoid wolves and other creatures. Someone would have had to be very knowledgeable about ancient languages in order to do this.

The one person who might have done it was Daniel Boone, because he was an early explorer. He was educated, but I doubt far from understanding ancient languages. So I would rule out Daniel Boone. That means the only people who could have done this were the ones who did it. They did not leave their names on the rock. Daniel Boone marked his trail by his own sign. So maybe Daniel Boone and company did do this.

But I will leave it up to others to decide. I will say, someone did it. Why did they just not tell us their names? But, interestingly, Captain Juan Pardo of Spain did travel quite inland, even establishing forts in Knoxville. Maybe some sailors in his company did it?
edit on 8/24/2012 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)
edit on 8/24/2012 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)





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