US defense firms could push forward with sending layoff notices

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by eLPresidente
reply to post by OZtracized

 

Agreed strong defense is necessary, strong offense is not

What is it makes the best defence again....it's on the tip of my tongue...oh...yeah...the best defence is an offence.

Why would you only want to fight your wars in your own territory??

Because if you are not fighting a war to defend your own territory, you are fighting an unjust war.

I would rather see our nation spiral into madness and starvation than see our continued military presence killing people in our name.

Maybe if we made appliances, TV's, tools, and computers here we wouldn't need these defense jobs. Maybe if we didn't just assemble our cars here with parts from other countries we would not need these defense jobs. Make jobs for things citizens need that aren't bought with taxpayers money. Sure we can import some stuff from china but not nearly as much as we do. The government has to quit publishing lies and changing the way they figure American made percentages. Rent and overinflated housing costs can't be included in the GNP. Change the interpretation to cover the truth and make things look better than they are. We do produce excessive grains by our corporate farmers but the farming land is burnt out because of this and we now will become dependent on other countries for our food. Talk about Homeland security issues, this overindulgence of our farmland for profiteering should be a crime. Our grandchildren will be starving.

reply to post by rickymouse


Interesting that you bring a subject that was discussed very deep a while back in ATS when we were facing the economic downfall, US lost its productivity to the corporatism that has taken over the nations government under the false pretenses that we were innovators and thinkers so with this idea productivity was moved out to allow for inventions and technology to take over, and it did, but that didn't came from our nation but from oversea

So while America grow fat on credicard debt, loans and unattainable mortgages, we were the mass consumers of the world.

Our nations economy grew Dependant on this consumerism but at the cost of massive debt and trillions of dollars on deficit.

Now that America lost the capability to produce and soon to even afford what is imported what we have left is a nation that is now growing fat on government welfare and assistance now we are becoming a welfare nation.

But consumerism and corporatism most grow at any cost, now the government can tax us very soon for what we don't want thanks to the healthcare mandate soon to be tax.

Should be more than 500 billion over ten years.

Should be 200 billion every year.
Our military is not moving about the globe to protect our freedoms. Regardless of how many times the sheep say this, while waiving their American flags, it isn't true. Our military budget is more than the rest of the world's combined!
Our military is the reason that most of the world hates the United States. It is the reason we are in massive debt while the defense contractors bathe in unlimited wealth, then use that wealth to ensure their congressional supporters get re elected.

It has become beyond pathetic.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Can we all just agree, that the United States is a mess. Over the past 60 years our government and politicians have ran this country into the ground. They have behaved in their own best interests. Our politicians have operated like a board of directors, answering to the almighty dollar, not the American public who elected them. They answer to the lobbyist. This has resulted in wars fought upon fallacies and lies. Debt in the trillions of dollars. High unemployment rates. Diminishing manufacturing. Failing school systems. Our defense budget is over $800 billion dollars! That's more than most countries federal budget. This is obscene!

I'm a patriot. I'm a veteran. But I refuse to support what our politicians have done to this once great republic.

Just another reason the unemployment numbers are even more cooked- millions more people "should" be unemployed now if not for the insane levels of deficit spending.

How much smaller would State and especially Federal workforces be if all they ever spent was what comes in?
(let alone, subtracting spending of dollars stolen from FICA receipts)

The only answer is to immediately implement gigantic trade tariffs with China to incentivize industry returning here.
That, coupled with the (Democrat driven) shackles removed from domestic energy production, would begin to fix the economy.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by CALGARIAN

 

Well is not going to happen is already happening my husband and many like him already got layoff from one of those two companies due to obama budget cuts.

It is easy to talk about," fixing the economy"," balancing the economy", but unless you are in the same shoes of people like my husband and others that are now unemployed you have not clue how things affect no only the lives of the people involved and the economy.

This lay off is only adding more bodies to the unemployment lines and welfare system

The income bracket that my husband was during his 30 years plus of employment first as a marine and then as a private contractor is the income bracket that feeds the economy so welfare and government services are available for those that never work or are in the welfare working class

When you are a productive worker you are paying into the pot with taxes, as you do not need government services or government help.

States loses too, as they will have to add more into paying for unemployment for this working group of once productive bodies.

How does that help the economy? you don't have to be a genius to figure that one out.

In 30 years of been a productive working body my husband never received unemployment, now he does.

Our retirement account is almost depleted, how that helps the economy? and our savings account almost gone, how that helps the economy?

Been Dependant on the government for help at the expenses of other hard working productive bodies is a burden and just increases the working poor welfare state in the nation, how that help the economy?

Obama seems to be the president that will be recognized for increasing to record numbers of the welfare state in the nation

And the economy will still be screw up.

cutting jobs do not add anything to the economy, creating welfare class jobs do not improve working standards and living standards it jobs keep eroding the nations reminding productive tax payers.

The truth is that the country is spending WAY TOO MUCH on military spending and you and your husband should be thankful that he had 30 years of paychecks from the military industry.

To get this country back in shape, some folks are going to face difficult times. MANY have already faced these difficult times numerous times already. In the last 30 years that your husband had stable employment in that industry, do you know how many times the average worker had been forced to find another profession and start ALL OVER from the BOTTOM AGAIN?? MANY TIMES over and over again.

So, consider your husband EXTREMELY LUCKY. The military spending is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of control and things must change. Its LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.

People who are LUCKY enough to have enjoyed 30 years of employment in one profession or with one employer without losing their jobs need to face the reality of the rest of the country. Those folks need to learn to SUCK IT UP like MANY other Americans who were MUCH more unlucky over that length of time.

Folks who have gotten comfortable with having a stable employment fo 30 years have not faced the reality of the rest of us. They too will have to learn how to SUCK IT UP in all honesty. The rest of us have sucked it up MANY times in the last 30 years!

Thats just the truth. Your husband was VERY LUCKY!!!!!!!!! Very lucky that we have had WAR-MONGERS for leaders in modern times past.

[color=cyan]Besides, there are MUCH better professions out there where you can feel PRIDE in doing rather than working in the WAR industry anyways.

Its for the better of the country as a WHOLE. Its LONG OVERDUE!!!!!

Just a thought...
If the average income of the people being laid off is 50,000,
And average unemployment, and such is 25,000

There is a gain of 25,000/ year per person.
Multiply by 500,000

Savings of 12,500,000 if my math is correct.
Even if you factor in taxes paid on income, there is still financial gain to the layoffs.

These numbers are hypothetical...I was just thinking.

Oh and that isn't even factoring in any benefits.

Well even though this is necessary it should not have been the first thing they did. They should start closing down bases around the world in the 135 countries they are in and bringing troops home. Then they could lay off these workers in increments at a slower pace. Use the money saved not maintaining bases around the world to shore up unemployment for all the people being layed off etc.

This is insane and we're going to suffer badly if Jan 1st isn't averted somehow. I'm not defending Military spending and that isn't even the point. These guys aren't being cut in any pre-planned or deliberate move to reduce military spending. I wish that were the case. I've made many a post calling for this very thing and applauding everything Ron Paul has stood for on the matter.

Ron Paul would have gone about it in a logical and sane way so it didn't outright crash the economy. Jeeze... Merry Christmas and another saying comes to mind for my Christmas Dinner this year. "Eat, Drink and be Merry! For Tomorrow we may........." Fill in whatever each thinks Taxmageddon will mean. These are just a small % of those who will get the epic Happy New Year from hell...and Congress split without fixing a bit of it. They have another 6 weeks mixed between now and then in pieces..to do something.

If they don't..I really fear the Defense layoffs will be entirely forgotten either way, for what else comes with it.

reply to post by Valhall

I personally believe this is the type of pain this country has endure to get back on track.

Aw, yes, go ask Greece how austerity measures worked out for them. lol

A very large number of these lost jobs will be people set to retire, or about to retire.

These military contractors have large numbers of people near retirement age.

The more interesting part is how this large increase in retirement funds being pulled from the stock market will effect the market.

Boomer retirement is going to make very big changes.

This is why Congress needs to get its act together and come up with a sensible plan so automatic cuts don't lead to a loss of jobs (and thus a loss of revenue for the Federal Government). But of course, they're just going to keep fighting with each other and nothing's going to get done.

reply to post by HangTheTraitors


Unless you has been working for the government you have no clue of what the government is doing, sadly I can not even start to post what everything is about. Military DOD, contractors and the so call military complex is not just about wars and so, is about domestic maintenance of the military personnel.

I will leave at that.

Now I can tell you that the so call budget cuts from the military will mostly hurt the active duty and our way to protect the nation, no the oversea over spending, waste and abuse.

The cuts are not to benefit anything as this cuts will be utilized for other areas of more waste and abuse.

So at the end is not money coming out and is just recycling the debt and growing.

When you have a nation that is killing their productive working force and increasing the welfare state is not such thing as progress.

At the end we all be at the mercy of government mandates and taxes to support those that can not afford to be mandated and taxed.

reply to post by hawkiye


And that is where the problem lies, the government rather screw domestic national security than stop the money flow to oversea waste and abuse, while increasing spending on lavish bases and compounds in other nations.

And that is ok, while the nations suffer at home from this practices.

That is why I can not stop telling that our nation is run by a corporate dictatorship and they careless about what happen to the nation because is all about leaching the wealth and resources for corporate needs

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
Why would you only want to fight your wars in your own territory??

Right, and look where trying to occupy the world got us.

The premise of this thread is built around the FACT that YOUR way doesn't work. Does it now?

it is not a matter of occupying the world - there is a difference between the offence and being an aggressive instigator of wars.

I suspect that instigating wars is what you have the problem with - not being able to fight the war on the other guy's turf when and/or if HE starts it.

Do you need to be sent back to pre-school to learn these principles?

Perhaps you could join me to learn some manners, and to understand teh difference between offense and aggression?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Boy, you don't sound like the yellow chicken your avator portrays you as. Can't you give the chicken a gun or at least boxing gloves

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
Why would you only want to fight your wars in your own territory??

Right, and look where trying to occupy the world got us.

The premise of this thread is built around the FACT that YOUR way doesn't work. Does it now?

it is not a matter of occupying the world - there is a difference between the offence and being an aggressive instigator of wars.

I suspect that instigating wars is what you have the problem with - not being able to fight the war on the other guy's turf when and/or if HE starts it.

Do you need to be sent back to pre-school to learn these principles?

Perhaps you could join me to learn some manners, and to understand teh difference between offense and aggression?

edit on 12-8-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)

Are you really trying to justify your false argument by saying that an offense doesn't necessarily mean aggression?

You're about to CHOKE on your own words.

Looking up offense shows all TEN definitions as proving yourself wrong. So you're trying to sit there and justify offensive manner as a non-aggression manner is completely FALSE. Or you can just admit that you're wrong.

of·fense   [uh-fens or, for 7–9, aw-fens, of-ens] Show IPA
noun
1.
a violation or breaking of a social or moral rule; transgression; sin.
2.
a transgression of the law; misdemeanor.
3.
a cause of transgression or wrong.
4.
something that offends or displeases.
5.
the act of offending or displeasing.
6.
the feeling of resentful displeasure caused: to give offense.
7.
the act of attacking; attack or assault: weapons of offense.
8.
a person, army, etc., that is attacking.
9.
Sports .
a.
the players or team unit responsible for attacking or scoring in a game.
b.
the players possessing or controlling the ball, puck, etc., or the aspects or period of a game when this obtains.
c.
a pattern or style of scoring attack: single-wing offense; fast-break offense.
d.
offensive effectiveness; ability to score: a total breakdown in offense.
10.
Archaic . injury, harm, or hurt.

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Are you really trying to justify your false argument by saying that an offense doesn't necessarily mean aggression?

You're about to CHOKE on your own words.

Looking up offense shows all TEN definitions as proving yourself wrong. So you're trying to sit there and justify offensive manner as a non-aggression manner is completely FALSE. Or you can just admit that you're wrong.

of·fense   [uh-fens or, for 7–9, aw-fens, of-ens] Show IPA
noun
1. a violation or breaking of a social or moral rule; transgression; sin.
2. a transgression of the law; misdemeanor.
3. a cause of transgression or wrong.
4. something that offends or displeases.
5. the act of offending or displeasing.
6. the feeling of resentful displeasure caused: to give offense.
7. the act of attacking; attack or assault: weapons of offense.
8. a person, army, etc., that is attacking.
9. Sports .
a. the players or team unit responsible for attacking or scoring in a game.
b. the players possessing or controlling the ball, puck, etc., or the aspects or period of a game when this obtains.
c. a pattern or style of scoring attack: single-wing offense; fast-break offense.
d. offensive effectiveness; ability to score: a total breakdown in offense.
10. Archaic . injury, harm, or hurt.

Sorry - did you think that somewhere in there was somethign that said that agression is the same as offence??

well I tried to be polite, to give you a way out of looking like an idiot - I am sorry you did not take it.

Here's an example: When Germany attacked Poland in 1939, it was both agressive and it took the offence. However when Poland counter attacked the Germans at the Battle of Bzura the retreating Polish armies took the offensive......but they were not the agressor - Germany was the aggressor for invading Poland.

Or when USA invaded Okinawa - clearly the ISA launched an offensive - so was the USA the Aggressor?? Or was that Japan at Pearl Harbour?????

Let's take a case that I am sure yuo think is not agressive -lets say your country is invaded, god forbid. Now you counter attack the invader - clearly you are mounting an offensive. Does that make you the aggressor?

Even fighting a defensive war you have to be able to take the offensive occasionally.

reply to post by CALGARIAN


Oh, is this where I am supposed to ball my eyes out because some parasitic germs claiming to "just be doing their jobs" get layed off- after being part of the money grubbing, MIC scum that have bankrupted us and perpetuated the loss of American lives for slimeball foreign policy? I hope they rot in the sewers, and I am being nice.